2025 Condo Meeting Information - Renting

[VGCgroupie]

Could be…but the result is the same,,,it takes rooms from others to book with points, which I think was part of the plan for this and the AP.

Give owners an option beside renting on the open market when they have extra points.

I think many were shocked because we didn’t think people exchanged that much. But if you consider all the MB points it’s not as shocking.

 

[Cyberc1978]

I'm guess I'm just not sure why they were excited to share with us that they rent out so many points. Yes, they are allowed to and the points come from members trading in for cruises, ABD, etc. but if anything it still seems more like a negative point to me personally.

So you're telling us that on top of all of these fairly obvious commercial rentals being done by members, Disney themselves is also renting out around 20% of all points? (I'm not talking about rooms that were never booked and went into breakage though, that is not competing with members to book popular rooms)

The more renting being done (by anyone, even Disney themselves) increases booking competition because the number of actual owners/members trying to book and use a room will always be less than the number of owners/members looking to use them + all the prospective renters looking at rooms. Ex. 10,000 owners at a resort booking vs 10,000 owners and however many more thousands of renters looking as well.

To preserve member availability and happiness, I would be hopeful that Disney themselves isn't booking popular rooms at 11 months out just to rent or allowing cash renters to book DVC 11 months ahead with DVCs points and compete with owners in the home resort window, but if that is what makes them the most money... then they very well may be doing that.

Was anything else mentioned about their processes other than the percentage that they rent? I would be very curious

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Members: "Hey DVC, we don't like how much of these commercial rentals are out there and it is getting difficult to book popular times with our memberships"

DVC: "Don't worry, we also do a ton of commercial rentals! "

Members:

Have you ever wondered WHY a hard to book room is available at 07.55.00 - 07.59.x am many mornings?

It’s been discussed before and it would not make sense for any member, commercial renters or not to wait until the very last minute to extend a reservation or walk it.

However for a Disney algorithm it would make perfect sense to wait until the very last minute. Members can see the availability during the entire day and night before and possibly think “TOMORROW is my lucky day to get that reservation” only to find out that it’s wasn’t as the availability disappeared a minute or seconds before the 8am window. They might think and accept it’s an owner that just forgot to change their reservation etc.

Furthermore there have been plenty of value studios for rent directly by Disney - so YES they book the hard to get rooms too.

 

[eticketplease]

However for a Disney algorithm it would make perfect sense to wait until the very last minute. Members can see the availability during the entire day and night before and possibly think “TOMORROW is my lucky day to get that reservation” only to find out that it’s wasn’t as the availability disappeared a minute or seconds before the 8am window. They might think and accept it’s an owner that just forgot to change their reservation etc.

Count me in this camp. There has been many times my room is available during the 7 am hour and then I can’t grab it at 8 am on the dot.

 

[Narcoossee11]

For me personally it does not. When I see on FB one person renting out 15 different reservations all within a 60 day period of time for popular dates like OBB or for Food & Wine at Epcot, to me that says Disney is not my main competition for booking rooms.

Edit to add or on websites created just for renting not just FB

THIS is the evil of renters. This done by huge 'members' who only purchased to run a business. They never use the membership for them self, ONLY for a financial business.
These 'members' have 12+ memberships, with thousands of points. This allows them to book any resort, any dates (all holidays), muli day 2-7 day stay.

 

[muppets3d]

Count me in this camp. There has been many times my room is available during the 7 am hour and then I can’t grab it at 8 am on the dot.

And I mean on the dot too. I have always suspected bots, but never suspected DVC is running its own bots!

 

[Cyberc1978]

And I mean on the dot too. I have always suspected bots, but never suspected DVC is running its own bots!

I honestly didn’t think they would either. But it sort of make sense that DVC would use a bot too, just to get the rooms they want.

I know a some in here says DVC can’t book before the 11 month mark but what’s not to say that they do it anyway? Absolutely no members are able to look over their shoulder when they book or claim rooms - all we know is that they are gone.

 

[VGCgroupie]

THIS is the evil of renters. This done by huge 'members' who only purchased to run a business. They never use the membership for them self, ONLY for a financial business.
These 'members' have 12+ memberships, with thousands of points. This allows them to book any resort, any dates (all holidays), muli day 2-7 day stay.

Yep I even saw one who had every 4 day span during an entire month booked at Boardwalk.

 

[Brian Noble]

if you consider all the MB points it’s not as shocking.

I suspect that the amount of Disney-internal exchange and Breakage is a lot higher than most DISers think.

There has been many times my room is available during the 7 am hour and then I can’t grab it at 8 am on the dot.

You might not be the only person trying to get that room at 8AM on the dot. There might be more people than rooms available, and enough of them might have been faster.

I am not saying that renting doesn't make this harder. It certainly does for certain room categories. But this, by itself, is not conclusive evidence of renting.

 

[Sandisw]

I suspect that the amount of Disney-internal exchange and Breakage is a lot higher than most DISers think.


You might not be the only person trying to get that room at 8AM on the dot. There might be more people than rooms available, and enough of them might have been faster.

I am not saying that renting doesn't make this harder. It certainly does for certain room categories. But this, by itself, is not conclusive evidence of renting.

And I am going to add the possibility that not everyone grabbing the hard to get rooms, even to rent, are renting to the degree that they have crossed the line into the commercial world.

So, I think you have a wide range of owners grabbing them who fit many categories.

But, 18 value rooms, especially in early December, are going to go extremely fast.

 

[DoubleBaconBLT]

Based on my personal conversation with them…yes, there has been.

Ooh, spicy. Any details you can share? I hope it was someone big and abusive who got busted and not some individual owner who hesitated or bumbled their response when they asked if it was for personal use.

 

[Sandisw]

Ooh, spicy. Any details you can share? I hope it was someone big and abusive who got busted and not some individual owner who hesitated or bumbled their response when they asked if it was for personal use.

No…other than that they are monitoring accounts and have indeed enforced against owners.

They also are not surprised…and I am not either…that these owners would not be sharing it on social media anywhere they got caught.

Basically, owners who have a lot of reservations, in the names of others, that are overlapping all the time and it’s a constant and regular occurrence, may find themselves needing to explain things.

But, it’s not really about one specific thing its about the patterns they see when reviewing an owner’s account or accounts

Personally, I am happy that they are currently continuing this approach and making decisions at the owner level.

Who knows what decisions they will make in the future. but I did tell them I appreciated the approach they are taking with this and any other changes to the program.

 

[Cyberc1978]

Lets assume for a second that DVC managed to stop most if not all renting, for whatever reason or action they took.

What's not to say that all of those hard to get rooms wouldn't be scooped up by DVC when they pick and choose which rooms to take because of their renting?

We can't be sure of anything and knowing Disney in general they wouldn't leave money on the table, of course they would take the hard to get rooms, they are already doing it now. Now they would just take even more of those rooms. If there weren't any members renting any of those rooms, DVC would take their place and jack up the price.

Seen from DVC perspective, with them taking the place of members renting - the regular members trying to book the hard to get rooms or just rooms in general, are no worse or better with DVC renting all of those rooms so its a status quo. But DVC did manage to stop members from renting, but the membership as a whole is still in a status quo.

 

[airjay75]

Lets assume for a second that DVC managed to stop most if not all renting, for whatever reason or action they took.

What's not to say that all of those hard to get rooms wouldn't be scooped up by DVC when they pick and choose which rooms to take because of their renting?

We can't be sure of anything and knowing Disney in general they wouldn't leave money on the table, of course they would take the hard to get rooms, they are already doing it now. Now they would just take even more of those rooms. If there weren't any members renting any of those rooms, DVC would take their place and jack up the price.

Seen from DVC perspective, with them taking the place of members renting - the regular members trying to book the hard to get rooms or just rooms in general, are no worse or better with DVC renting all of those rooms so its a status quo. But DVC did manage to stop members from renting, but the membership as a whole is still in a status quo.

I think that is potentially very true. The only counterargument I can muster (and I'm not saying I think it's true, just playing devil's advocate) is that DVC has the potentially countervailing force of selling a product to potential buyers and wanting that product to be a desirable one. Hard to sell, say, enough points for a resort view studio at an actively selling resort while at the same time being like, well, just so you know, you won't ever be able to book those rooms at high demand times because we will scoop them all up and rent them ourselves. So, while I think DVC would have an incentive to be piggish about the rooms they take, I think they might have an incentive to not be the biggest pig they could be. OTOH, individual owners looking to maximize their rental return, would have no such incentive.

Of course, the counter to that is that Disney doesn't care, they're a profit making corporation fully within their rights to do what they want and they will. And, they'll be happy to sell you enough points for a resort view studio and then, when you complain about availability, tell you the answer is simple - more points! Then you can book preferred view or 1 BRs without any problem!

 

[Sandisw]

Lets assume for a second that DVC managed to stop most if not all renting, for whatever reason or action they took.

What's not to say that all of those hard to get rooms wouldn't be scooped up by DVC when they pick and choose which rooms to take because of their renting?

We can't be sure of anything and knowing Disney in general they wouldn't leave money on the table, of course they would take the hard to get rooms, they are already doing it now. Now they would just take even more of those rooms. If there weren't any members renting any of those rooms, DVC would take their place and jack up the price.

Seen from DVC perspective, with them taking the place of members renting - the regular members trying to book the hard to get rooms or just rooms in general, are no worse or better with DVC renting all of those rooms so its a status quo. But DVC did manage to stop members from renting, but the membership as a whole is still in a status quo.

I honestly do not see any evidence that DVC doesn’t balance things appropriately when deciding what to take and when they take it to use for the exchanges.

They certainly will push limits when they believe they can plausibly explain it.

And yes, some hard to get rooms do show up for cash, we know plenty of owners are getting those same rooms.

I do agree that the more opportunities that owners have to use points for things outside DVC, it will potentially shift where those rooms are being rented…cash side or open rental market.

There are even some DCL options that appear to be giving owners better value for the points.

IMO, it’s a win for owners to have more options to exchange points…even if it ends up benefiting DVC at the same time because they get to keep any extra funds above and beyond what they had to pay those other divisions for the exchanges.

I know I will continue to use my points for an AP and with the $95 exchange fee for trades gone, I may find myself with extra points I will use for DCL!

 

[VGCgroupie]

Saw this in a blog today.

Shannon Sakaske, the Vice President of Member Experiences & Club Management, stated the organization has increased staffing and resources to monitor point usage, yet offered no further specifics about how enforcement, the definition of commercial renting, or consequences will be applied, according to a report from DVC Fan

 

[Cyberc1978]

I honestly do not see any evidence that DVC doesn’t balance things appropriately when deciding what to take and when they take it to use for the exchanges.

They certainly will push limits when they believe they can plausibly explain it.

are you seeing any evidence that DVC does balance the inventory they take?

No evidence either way, might just be because there aren’t any - or we haven’t found them….yet.

To me DVC ought to be the bigger person or corporation. If the rooms they took were on the up and up and everything balanced out, they would have no issue providing proof.

 

[Sandisw]

are you seeing any evidence that DVC does balance the inventory they take?

No evidence either way, might just be because there aren’t any - or we haven’t found them….yet.

To me DVC ought to be the bigger person or corporation. If the rooms they took were on the up and up and everything balanced out, they would have no issue providing proof.

That is where we differ…the rooms DVC takes for exchanges are taken because owners decided to trade.

So, it’s for an owner’s benefit first and not for DVCs.

Now if one doesn’t trust DVC at all, they might want proof beyond what we see.

Plenty of owners are getting hard to get rooms and people who have access to trade into DVC via other timeshares don’t see very many hard to book rooms.

The DVC rooms that show up for cash bookings seem to be a balance across it all.

Not really sure what the concern would be other than we know now that there are a lot of DVC rooms being traded out by owners.

 

[KAT4DISNEY]

They can’t r remove them sooner than the 11 month plus 7 window, but it’s not like they have to “create” a reservation.

This may be mentioned later as I'm just reading this thread but DVC doesn't exactly have to follow the windows the same as members do. For example with the 60 day breakage they get to estimate based on history. So they could take rooms earlier than what remains at 60 days for "breakage". There's a fault to this though in that travel trends change, seen especially with the "revenge travel" period where it's unlikely there would have been as much available at 60 days as historical data would have been showing.
It's been quite awhile since I've looked at the rules for their taking inventory for exchanges but I think it may have been some what similar. At a minimum they don't have CM's getting online and doing the individual bookings. They would simply not send the rooms to inventory as best I have ever been able to tell. Years ago I had a lengthy discussion with MS relating to AKV concierge rooms. Broken down to its basics - they would get what they wanted as it was their right.

(I see you address this)

 

[Sandisw]

This may be mentioned later as I'm just reading this thread but DVC doesn't exactly have to follow the windows the same as members do. For example with the 60 day breakage they get to estimate based on history. So they could take rooms earlier than what remains at 60 days for "breakage". There's a fault to this though in that travel trends change, seen especially with the "revenge travel" period where it's unlikely there would have been as much available at 60 days as historical data would have been showing.
It's been quite awhile since I've looked at the rules for their taking inventory for exchanges but I think it may have been some what similar. At a minimum they don't have CM's getting online and doing the individual bookings. They would simply not send the rooms to inventory as best I have ever been able to tell. Years ago I had a lengthy discussion with MS relating to AKV concierge rooms. Broken down to its basics - they would get what they wanted as it was their right.

(I see you address this)

They can anticipate for breakage but in terms of booking with their own points and I assume that applies to exchanges as well, the POS states they must follow the 11 month window.

So, I definitely don’t think they can remove them from inventory prior to then, but I agree that they may have a system that allows them to “take” them faster than others.

The only exception I know of is the removal for renovations.

But, they definitely have the abilities we do not.

 

[Cyberc1978]

That is where we differ…the rooms DVC takes for exchanges are taken because owners decided to trade.

So, it’s for an owner’s benefit first and not for DVCs.

it’s true that because of owners deciding to trade out, DVC take rooms.

However that doesn’t mean DVC should take the rooms that are already hard to get. It’s thy wanted BWV then take p/g view and resort/savanna view at AKV.

I’m in the boat that DVC does not first and foremost do this for owners. They do it to fill the pockets of the parent company Disney. If they can also help the members doing so, that’s great.

DVC brings a lot of money to the table for Disney and i can’t imagine them not having anything to say them it comes to AP point prices, cruise point price etc. If the members was the 1st priority then DVC would have gotten us lower prices etc across the board.

That said I’m not mad about what we have, just saying it could be better if DVC really wanted them to be.