2020 Point Charts

[lehrsj]

So if I write a letter asking DVC to release information on how and why they changed the point allocations they are going to to invite me to their office for answers?

 

[BillPA]

I think we should all just be happy about all the wonderful changes DVC is providing us. Be happy, let other know how great it is to a DVC member. I'm getting ready to sell, so I don't need everyone letting the 'world' know how corrupt Disney is becoming.

 

[lehrsj]

I am willing to. If anyone with more experience could start this I'd be happy to contribute. Otherwise I'll do it.
Anyone knows a lawyer who I could contact? I'll get a quote and start a GoFundMe campaign.

If you do I’ll contribute $250.

 

[Madame]

I think we should all just be happy about all the wonderful changes DVC is providing us. Be happy, let other know how great it is to a DVC member. I'm getting ready to sell, so I don't need everyone letting the 'world' know how corrupt Disney is becoming.

But Bill I’m over on FB changing hearts & minds man!! Don’t bail now

 

[pinklotusflower]

I haven't read the full thread but read some of it plus some of the other related threads & for us we stay in a one bedroom for two weeks each year & bought enough points for that & have 12 left each year. With the reallocation we're short of 5 each year now. We've no intention of adding on now with this plus the other things like the huge fee increase & will instead look at staying at a Universal hotel for a couple of nights to save points.

The other thread is now closed but we'd be happy to contribute to any action, it doesn't make sense to increase 1 bed points unless as people have said it is because they are gaining points from the situation to make money from rentals.

 

[JETSDAD]

I think we should all just be happy about all the wonderful changes DVC is providing us. Be happy, let other know how great it is to a DVC member. I'm getting ready to sell, so I don't need everyone letting the 'world' know how corrupt Disney is becoming.

I'm in favour of people getting upset and selling....will help me with adding on! I have been considering it for a while and the reallocation helped me to decide what route to go should we add on. We own at AKV and had been thinking about adding on elsewhere but with the Value 1 & 2 BR's going down I think I would just add some on there. Then the hope would also be that people who can't afford to stay at their current resorts as long as they want to will decide to stay at cheaper resorts instead of adding on, leaving me with more options at 7 months.

But in the end, it will likely be status quo and nothing will change. A bit of outrage at first then it will die down and people will keep coming back.

 

[Dean Marino]

.

 

[KAT4DISNEY]

But in the end, it will likely be status quo and nothing will change. A bit of outrage at first then it will die down and people will keep coming back.

Except it won't be status quo. I agree that it probably won't shift much for people's villa size nor seasons but that we'll have to see.

However, unless you're an owner that goes in Magic Season and stays in a 2BR it's very likely you'll be using more points for your stay. And some won't have more points so will reduce the length of their stays. That's not status quo at all.

 

[DavisFamily7]

When someone hears from DVC directly about this please share. As a BWV owner any which way you shake it they added more points than was available in prior years. Not sure how this make sense. Reading through everyone's comments, some may have gone up or down however those small changes do not add up to the same total year after year. Not sure how more points available when they have not sold "new" points or opened anything up to add to it. If you total one room type all year or straight across it all equals more total points than years prior. There is a couple that dropped one or two however that is a couple. No balance! Understanding moving around but total should not change and it has. If someone knows what I am missing please advise.

 

[tjkraz]

NEW owners must now contend with "point inflation". It's here, it's real, and it will continue.

The "lockoff premium" has been around since the very beginning. (Back in 1991, an Adventure Season Studio at OKW was 69 points per week, 1B was 140, 2B was 189. That's a 20 point premium or 10.6%.)

In 2020, the amount of that premium rises from 10.6% to 13.7%. Whether this is the start of a trend ("...it will continue") or a necessary one-time adjustment after 29 years of program operations remains to be seen.

 

[JETSDAD]

When someone hears from DVC directly about this please share. As a BWV owner any which way you shake it they added more points than was available in prior years. Not sure how this make sense. Reading through everyone's comments, some may have gone up or down however those small changes do not add up to the same total year after year. Not sure how more points available when they have not sold "new" points or opened anything up to add to it. If you total one room type all year or straight across it all equals more total points than years prior. There is a couple that dropped one or two however that is a couple. No balance! Understanding moving around but total should not change and it has. If someone knows what I am missing please advise.

The total did not change (within a few hundred points on resorts with 3 million plus points which is just normal year to year depending on weekends and such). The issue is that premium on lockoffs has increased.

 

[skier_pete]

IKR?!? I love Disney too, but when you’ve forked over 10s of 1000s of dollars & committed yourself to spending thousands more on tickets, dining etc.... Well, I want a little honesty.

I’m not a timeshare person, but I’m a Disney person & I thought (based on research) that Disney was reputable. Recent questionable moves on the part of DVC management make me feel a bit of an idiot for buying in. I don’t like to feel like an idiot.

I feel I went into DVC with eyes wide open. We've been Disney-holics since 2006, and only bought into DVC when we discovered resale pricing in 2014. I fully expected Disney to take advantage whenever it can of owners. Since 2014, they've taken benefits away from resale owners while at the same time driving up their direct point prices. I 100% expected Disney to take the Poly Bungalows, and once the resort was fully sold move points from the bungalows to the studios. I've been screaming from the rooftops how badly CCV owners that want studios are going to get really, really screwed by that resorts layout, where only 9% of all points sold are in studios thanks to another bunch of overpriced bungalows. Just wait until that resort is sold out and you start hearing owners screaming about this.

Now this, which I think is possibly the dirtiest of dirty moves they've made - only because it affects SOO many of the population of owners negatively and really would be hard to have anticipated. (Both the above are clear to anyone really paying attention.)

But what amazed me through all these things the resale prices in 5 years have driven up amazingly. 5 years ago, we paid $74 a point at AKV and now we see AKV contracts of similar size going for $110-120 a point, a 60-75% increase. AND that's with 5 years of value gone on those contracts. We got our second BWV 75 point contract 18 months ago for $105 and now you look for that contract and you are talking $130 for that contract.

So - in the end it's not really about "Disney is a business" or "I love Disney too much to care how bad they are sticking it to me."
It's about your choices, which are:
1) Be an informed consumer and continue to go to Disney and enjoy yourself the best you can with what you have.
2) Sell your contract and take your losses - or your gains. (In my case I would have made about $8,000 if I sold my contracts.)

Myself I still choose #1. We don't only vacation at Disney but we have the BEST times on our Disney trip. We are still saving a boatload of money on using DVC versus cash, we limit our spending in other ways. (Plan our trips in 12 month windows so we get APs, limit our TS dining to restaurants that we see as relatively good values, avoid the hard ticket events {Parties, Dessert / Fireworks experiences}, and don't spend a lot on souvenirs [If I spend $200 on trinkets each trip its a lot} So, I'll be the first to admit that this is unlikely to dissuade me from coming to the parks.

BUT - I will say this...practically since the day we bought in 2014 I wanted to buy more points. We added the 75 points in 2017 as I mentioned, and still I would've wanted some more. This move - for the first time - has turned off my desire to buy more points. A big chunk of that is them raising 1-bedroom rates the way they did. We have always stayed in studios, and considered 1-bedrooms just out of range. With more points, the idea of occasionally staying in a 1-bedroom would be put on the table. But pushing those costs even higher - forget it. We'll stick with studios for now, we maybe lose 1-1.5 days a year with the point increase, but the extra 75 points we bought offsets that we'll enough that we are still covered for nearly two weeks a year. So in the end, this move definitely lost out on more money from us...but I fully expect big picture it will not phase them at all.

What I do see Disney doing in all their raised prices in squeezing the population the way it does is if there is a serious economic downturn Disney is going to be hit HARD. Much harder than in past years.

 

[drusba]

I have now going through the new point charts and something I was not sure of definitely stands out now other than just the issue that the changes have improperly increased or decreased the total points in a unit. I repeat here the applicable language in the BWV DVC Membership Agreement:

“In order to meet the Club Members’ needs and expectations as evidenced by fluctuations in Use Day demand at the Condominium experienced by DVCMC during a given calendar year, DVCMC may, in its sole discretion, increase or decrease the Home resort Vacation Point requirements of a given Use Day within a given Vacation Home during the given calendar year by any amount not to exceed twenty percent (20%) of the Home Resort Vacation Points required to reserve a Use Day during the previous calendar year; provided, however, that the total number of Home Resort Vacation points existing within a given Unit at any time may not be increased or decreased because of such reallocation. The twenty percent (20%) reallocation limitation shall not apply to increases or decreases of Home Resort Vacation Point reservation requirements relating to designated periods of high demand which do not occur on the same Use Day each year. Any increase or decrease in the Home Resort Vacation point reservation requirement for a given Use Day pursuant to DVCMC’s right to make this Home resort Vacation Point adjustment must be offset by a corresponding decrease or increase for another Use Day or Use Days.”

What DVCMC is allowed to do in response to fluctuations in Use Day demand is increase or decrease the points required for a given Vacation Home (a studio,1BR,2BR etc.) as long as it offsets that with a "corresponding decrease or increase for another Use Day or Days." That clearly indicates the last sentence is referring to the first in that it is talking only about the same Vacation Home, i.e., the offsetting decrease must be in a different Use Day than the increase for the same Vacation Home. The DVC argument is that it is allowed to do the offsetting decrease in any other Vacation Home but its own 2020 point chart proves how wrong that position is. A review of the charts for most of the resorts shows this: DVC raised the points needed for studios and 1BRs for virtually all Use Days in the year. It then offsets that increase with a decrease in 2BRs and/or GV's, bungalows, or cabins IN THE SAME (not other) USE DAYS OF THE YEAR. That is definitely not what the clause allows.

 

[Madame]

I feel I went into DVC with eyes wide open. We've been Disney-holics since 2006, and only bought into DVC when we discovered resale pricing in 2014. I fully expected Disney to take advantage whenever it can of owners. Since 2014, they've taken benefits away from resale owners while at the same time driving up their direct point prices. I 100% expected Disney to take the Poly Bungalows, and once the resort was fully sold move points from the bungalows to the studios. I've been screaming from the rooftops how badly CCV owners that want studios are going to get really, really screwed by that resorts layout, where only 9% of all points sold are in studios thanks to another bunch of overpriced bungalows. Just wait until that resort is sold out and you start hearing owners screaming about this.

Now this, which I think is possibly the dirtiest of dirty moves they've made - only because it affects SOO many of the population of owners negatively and really would be hard to have anticipated. (Both the above are clear to anyone really paying attention.)

But what amazed me through all these things the resale prices in 5 years have driven up amazingly. 5 years ago, we paid $74 a point at AKV and now we see AKV contracts of similar size going for $110-120 a point, a 60-75% increase. AND that's with 5 years of value gone on those contracts. We got our second BWV 75 point contract 18 months ago for $105 and now you look for that contract and you are talking $130 for that contract.

So - in the end it's not really about "Disney is a business" or "I love Disney too much to care how bad they are sticking it to me."
It's about your choices, which are:
1) Be an informed consumer and continue to go to Disney and enjoy yourself the best you can with what you have.
2) Sell your contract and take your losses - or your gains. (In my case I would have made about $8,000 if I sold my contracts.)

Myself I still choose #1. We don't only vacation at Disney but we have the BEST times on our Disney trip. We are still saving a boatload of money on using DVC versus cash, we limit our spending in other ways. (Plan our trips in 12 month windows so we get APs, limit our TS dining to restaurants that we see as relatively good values, avoid the hard ticket events {Parties, Dessert / Fireworks experiences}, and don't spend a lot on souvenirs [If I spend $200 on trinkets each trip its a lot} So, I'll be the first to admit that this is unlikely to dissuade me from coming to the parks.

BUT - I will say this...practically since the day we bought in 2014 I wanted to buy more points. We added the 75 points in 2017 as I mentioned, and still I would've wanted some more. This move - for the first time - has turned off my desire to buy more points. A big chunk of that is them raising 1-bedroom rates the way they did. We have always stayed in studios, and considered 1-bedrooms just out of range. With more points, the idea of occasionally staying in a 1-bedroom would be put on the table. But pushing those costs even higher - forget it. We'll stick with studios for now, we maybe lose 1-1.5 days a year with the point increase, but the extra 75 points we bought offsets that we'll enough that we are still covered for nearly two weeks a year. So in the end, this move definitely lost out on more money from us...but I fully expect big picture it will not phase them at all.

What I do see Disney doing in all their raised prices in squeezing the population the way it does is if there is a serious economic downturn Disney is going to be hit HARD. Much harder than in past years.

I agree with you 100%. I think I was just blindsided by the 1bd hike as it is just so blatantly does not serve the membership.

We’ve got some time to decide what we want to do. Recession is coming, as are great CRO deals if we want to continue to go to WDW without the long term commitment.

One thing is certain. We won’t be wearing our DVC caps in the parks providing them with free publicity.

 

[Madame]

I have now going through the new point charts and something I was not sure of definitely stands out now other than just the issue that the changes have improperly increased or decreased the total points in a unit. I repeat here the applicable language in the BWV DVC Membership Agreement:

“In order to meet the Club Members’ needs and expectations as evidenced by fluctuations in Use Day demand at the Condominium experienced by DVCMC during a given calendar year, DVCMC may, in its sole discretion, increase or decrease the Home resort Vacation Point requirements of a given Use Day within a given Vacation Home during the given calendar year by any amount not to exceed twenty percent (20%) of the Home Resort Vacation Points required to reserve a Use Day during the previous calendar year; provided, however, that the total number of Home Resort Vacation points existing within a given Unit at any time may not be increased or decreased because of such reallocation. The twenty percent (20%) reallocation limitation shall not apply to increases or decreases of Home Resort Vacation Point reservation requirements relating to designated periods of high demand which do not occur on the same Use Day each year. Any increase or decrease in the Home Resort Vacation point reservation requirement for a given Use Day pursuant to DVCMC’s right to make this Home resort Vacation Point adjustment must be offset by a corresponding decrease or increase for another Use Day or Use Days.”

What DVCMC is allowed to do in response to fluctuations in Use Day demand is increase or decrease the points required for a given Vacation Home (a studio,1BR,2BR etc.) as long as it offsets that with a "corresponding decrease or increase for another Use Day or Days." That clearly indicates the last sentence is referring to the first in that it is talking only about the same Vacation Home, i.e., the offsetting decrease must be in a different Use Day than the increase for the same Vacation Home. The DVC argument is that it is allowed to do the offsetting decrease in any other Vacation Home but its own 2020 point chart proves how wrong that position is. A review of the charts for most of the resorts shows this: DVC raised the points needed for studios and 1BRs for virtually all Use Days in the year. It then offsets that increase with a decrease in 2BRs and/or GV's, bungalows, or cabins IN THE SAME (not other) USE DAYS OF THE YEAR. That is definitely not what the clause allows.

So does that mean in your opinion, that the reallocations, including the SSR THV, preferred/standard PVB etc were in violation of the contract? If the other contracts resemble BWV ‘s.

 

[Dean]

IKR?!? I love Disney too, but when you’ve forked over 10s of 1000s of dollars & committed yourself to spending thousands more on tickets, dining etc.... Well, I want a little honesty.

I’m not a timeshare person, but I’m a Disney person & I thought (based on research) that Disney was reputable. Recent questionable moves on the part of DVC management make me feel a bit of an idiot for buying in. I don’t like to feel like an idiot.

Now you know it's just a timeshare, no more and no less. And as I just posted on another board, personally I feel I've gotten better service from Bluegreen and Marriott not that I've had specific complaints against DVC. That's esp true if you have issues while staying, they take care of things promptly, nicely and call to follow up it was done, not send it not he next "rounds' by a courier to come in an hour or more.

 

[Madame]

Now you know it's just a timeshare, no more and no less. And as I just posted on another board, personally I feel I've gotten better service from Bluegreen and Marriott not that I've had specific complaints against DVC. That's esp true if you have issues while staying, they take care of things promptly, nicely and call to follow up it was done, not send it not he next "rounds' by a courier to come in an hour or more.

Yes. I always knew, but it sucks to REALLY know, emotionally & cerebrally.

 

[SL6827]

What I do see Disney doing in all their raised prices in squeezing the population the way it does is if there is a serious economic downturn Disney is going to be hit HARD. Much harder than in past years.

We’ve got some time to decide what we want to do. Recession is coming, as are great CRO deals if we want to continue to go to WDW without the long term commitment.

Yep!

 

[Dean]

Yes. I always knew, but it sucks to REALLY know, emotionally & cerebrally.

I remember with the last round of reallocations someone posted they knew it could happen but assumed it wouldn't, shame on them.

 

[Madame]

I remember with the last round of reallocations someone posted they knew it could happen but assumed it wouldn't, shame on them.

I wouldn’t go that far. I knew as far back as 2016 when they slashed re-sale « benefits » and when we purchased, what direction DVC was headed & decided to watch it play out.

I am a bit surprised at the speed at which it happened. You know what though Dean, Disney plays on our emotional response to the brand, but there are two ends to emotions (not really sure how to say that in English lol).

WDW will rely somewhat on DVC to fill rooms during a recession. Some of us are ornery enough to use our DVC as a home base and get US or Seaworld or BG APs if we’re still members.