2 hours in the emergency room cost me......

When I read stuff like this, I don't think living in a country with a "broken" health care system (that needs some reform) is all that bad. More and more UK citizens are being kicked out of their own national health care scheme due to a Catch-22. The government is refusing to pay for potentially life saving drugs for patients with certain forms of cancer because, even though doctors think the drugs are their best chance for survival, they don't work in enough cases for the government's drug rationing committee to deem them "cost-effective" and provide them for free. So, many people in the UK facing a death sentence are opting to pay for the drugs themselves, often with the aid of community fund raisers. The catch is that if you do you, you're kicked out of the national health care program for everything. Many people, including doctors, want changes in these rules, but what's amazing are the people that actual argue that the current rules should be retained because it's not "fair" that some UK citizens can get the drugs, but not others.

London Sunday Times, June 8, 2008

by Sarah-Kate Templeton

‘We’ve paid into the system all our lives. Why has the NHS turned on us?’

New cases are emerging of cancer patients who are being denied free NHS care because they are buying drugs privately

Diana Winston and her husband Lt Cdr Lionel Winston MBE from Gosport. Diane has been refused drugs for the treatment of her cancer

After serving in the Royal Navy for almost 40 years and working his way up from the lower decks to become a lieutenant commander, Lionel Winston was putting away some money so that he and his wife Diane could enjoy their retirement.

The Winstons had hoped to spend their savings visiting Dominica in the Windward Islands, where Lionel was born, with their sons Sonny, 30, and Tel, 28, and their grandchildren. They had also looked forward to enjoying treats that they had not been able to afford during their working lives, such as going out for meals.

In October 2006, however, Diane, 52, a former healthcare assistant, was diagnosed with kidney cancer. She went through the early stages of treatment and had the diseased organ removed.

Doctors told the Winstons late last year that the drug that could give her the best chance of survival was only available privately. The couple were prepared to spend all their savings on the medicine. They also organised craft fairs and sponsored runs to raise cash to fund future supplies.

The couple, from Gosport, Hampshire, were not prepared for the next blow, however. Doctors told them that because they had chosen to pay for the drug, Nexavar, they would have the remainder of their free National Health Service care withdrawn. They are now faced with bills for every scan, blood test and appointment with a consultant.

Diane Winston will soon undergo a series of scans at an estimated cost of £800 each, adding to the £3,000 that they pay for Nexavar each month.

The Winstons, like dozens of others, are victims of a government policy which dictates that cancer patients who pay for drugs not funded by the state must be denied free NHS care.

Lionel Winston, 57, said: “If we choose to pay for a medicine that is licensed but is not yet approved by Nice [the government’s drug-rationing body], I do not see why the NHS should turn on us and say, ‘You will need to pay for the rest of your NHS care as well’.

“We have paid into the system all our lives and I feel let down. This is almost saying to people like us, ‘You have chosen to help yourselves, therefore we are going to penalise you for that’. I am absolutely disgusted by it.”

Since last December, The Sunday Times has been campaigning to change government policy so that patients like Diane Winston can pay for the cancer drugs that consultants recommend without the NHS hitting them with a bill for the rest of their care. The campaign, which has been backed by a group of almost 1,000 leading doctors, called Doctors for Reform, last week won the support of the medical establishment.

On Wednesday the annual consultants’ conference of the British Medical Association (BMA) voted to allow NHS patients to top up their care in this way through so-called “co-payments”.

The presidents of the Royal Society of Medicine and the Royal College of Surgeons have also criticised the government’s policy.

Ministers are under increasing pressure to change the policy. Last weekend David Cameron, the Conservative leader, said he was “tempted” to support co-payments.

What is at the root of the issue and why are ministers defending the policy so vigorously?

THE problem has arisen because numerous cancer medicines have been approved by the drug-licensing authorities as safe and effective, but the NHS has refused to fund them.

According to Nice, these medicines are not “cost effective” – considered good value for the taxpayer in terms of the cost versus the typical outcome of the treatment.

Meanwhile, cancer specialists point to clinical trials showing many drugs that are not Nice-approved can prolong patients’ lives. These include Sutent for kidney cancer, Erbitux for bowel cancer and Avastin for bowel and breast cancer. The doctors feel they must tell the patients about the most promising therapy, but know that these drugs can cost up to £30,000 a year.

For those faced with a terminal illness, this seems a price worth paying. Many patients are prepared to cash in their savings or remortgage their homes to buy life-prolonging medicines. Some, like the Winstons, embark on fundraising.

Yet the government’s policy of charging patients for basic NHS care, if they choose to co-pay, can more than double their bills. This can cause huge anxiety among people who should be using all their energy to fight their illness.

The government defends its stance as one of principle. Alan Johnson, the health secretary, argues that allowing co-payments would create a two-tier health service, with patients in adjacent beds on the same ward being prescribed different cancer drugs depending on their ability to pay. He told parliament this would hasten “the end of the founding principles of the NHS” – that patients should be treated privately or publicly, but not both.

Doctors argue that co-payments are already commonplace in the NHS and elsewhere in the public sector.

NHS dentists routinely offer patients a choice between an amalgam filling covered by the health service or a private white filling. Patients are also offered a choice between NHS and private mouth guards to prevent teeth grinding.

Last week Gordon Matthews, a consultant orthopaedic surgeon in Buckinghamshire, told the BMA conference that he regularly treats patients for sports injuries who pay for physiotherapy or sports braces privately. In addition, some NHS hospitals allow women to pay to secure a one-to-one midwife during labour.

Critics also point out that parents pay for their state-educated children to receive private tuition without the pupils being banned from school.

Some doctors and health charities fear, however, that if co-payments were allowed, the government would have an excuse not to fund expensive cancer drugs.

Yet others argue that Britain should be doing whatever it can to improve what are among the worst cancer survival rates in Europe – which is partly the result of patients not having access to the most advanced medicines quickly enough.

The latest statistics, covering 2000-2, show that only 8% of English patients with lung cancer are alive after five years, compared with 16% of patients in Belgium and 15% of patients in Germany. Similarly, 17% of stomach cancer patients are alive after five years, compared with 33% in Belgium and 31% in Germany.

For many cancer patients, the co-payments campaign has come too late. Last week it emerged that two more patients have died while fighting for the right to pay for a cancer medicine without their NHS care being withdrawn.

John Burrell, a retired financial adviser from the Isle of Wight, died on May 18 from kidney cancer at the age of 63.

He was told in his dying months that he would be denied NHS care because his family chose to pay for the drug Sutent, which doctors told him would give him the best chance of fighting the cancer.

His daughter, Kate Tasquier, 36, said: “The consultant told my dad he would be billed for all of his treatment such as blood tests and scans. My dad was so worried about that.” At one point he was so concerned that he was reluctant to go to hospital for treatment.

The whole island was so moved by Burrell’s predicament that residents raised funds to help to pay for his medicines.

Sandra Baker, who was 62 when she died in May last year, was denied state-funded care after she chose to pay for the drug Avastin, which NHS doctors said would aid her chances of survival.

Baker, a secretary from Wargrave, Berkshire, and her husband Peter were forced to spend about £16,000 on treatment in her dying months, in addition to the £9,500 bill for Avastin.

Peter Baker, 66, a retired engineer, said: “We both worked hard all our lives and had given a lot into the NHS.”

NEWS of these deaths has emerged following the tragedy, highlighted by The Sunday Times last week, of Linda O’Boyle, from Billericay, Essex, who died aged 64 after being denied NHS treatment in her final months because she chose to pay for the drug cetuximab.

At least six patients have launched a legal action to trigger a test case to force the NHS to allow them to top up their care with private drugs.

Melissa Worth, a solicitor at the law firm Halliwells, who is representing the patients, said three of the cases would shortly prompt a judicial review of the government ban. She said there was no legal reason why patients should not co-pay.

“My clients can, at a push, get the resources together to pay for the drugs, but they cannot afford to pay for all the care associated with the cancer,” she said.

“There are scans, the cost of administration of the chemotherapy, the radiotherapy, the consultations with doctors and the blood tests.”

Some NHS trusts are so keen to avoid a public outcry over the policy that when cases have been highlighted in the media they have agreed to pay for all of the patients’ treatment, including the drug that the cancer sufferers were prepared to pay for themselves.

An indication of defiance in the medical community is the action of doctors in Birmingham who are finding a way round the ban. About 16 oncologists at University Hospital Birmingham NHS Foundation Trust are writing prescriptions for their patients to receive private cancer drugs at home.

The patients have the drugs administered to them by nurses from a private company in their homes and do not write cheques to the NHS hospital. So far managers have overlooked the anomaly.

Professor Nick James, one of the Birmingham doctors, said they had defied the ban because they believe the government is being “vindictive” towards patients who wish to pay to improve their chances.

“There is no question of us turning away these patients,” he said. “I believe that to do so is punitive and vindictive. We remain responsible for the NHS care of these patients.”

This week the campaign to allow patients to top up their cancer care will gather pace. John Baron MP, a former Conservative shadow health minister, will lead a debate in the House of Commons demanding that the ban on co-payments is lifted.

In addition, Frank Field, a Labour MP and respected former welfare minister, has tabled an early-day motion, asking for cancer sufferers to “be encouraged, and then not penalised, to pay for additional drugs which are prescribed for them by their NHS consultant but are not made available to them on NHS prescriptions”.

The NHS Confederation, which represents hospital chief executives, is also consulting its members about how to resolve the crisis.

Meanwhile, the Winstons will continue to raise funds to pay for private supplies of Nexavar for Diane, while hoping that the bills for her basic NHS care will not mount up.

Lionel Winston said: “In a few weeks Diane will need to have scans to see how she has responded to the drug. We believe the scans will cost about £800 each.

He added: “We don’t want to be rewarded for buying the drug – we just don’t want to be penalised.”

What are co-payments? And why is the government against them?

What is co-payment?

Co-payment allows National Health Service patients to pay privately for medicines or treatments that are not routinely funded by the health service, without losing their entitlement to state-funded care.

Why has the government banned it?

Ministers say it would result in a “two-tier” health service because patients on the same NHS ward with the same condition could be given different treatments based on their ability to pay.

Government guidance states that patients must accept the drugs that are provided by the NHS, or pay for all their care privately, thus incurring bills that can run into tens of thousands of pounds.

It is a particular issue for cancer patients where new drugs are being developed all the time.

Why won’t the NHS pay for the extra drugs?

The NHS does not routinely fund certain advanced drugs because they may not have been approved by Nice, the body that gives the go-ahead for NHS treatments. Nice decides what drugs offer value for money to the taxpayer.

The advanced drugs include Sutent and Nexavar for kidney cancer, Erbitux for bowel cancer, Avastin for breast and bowel cancer, and Tarceva for lung cancer.

A course of one of these cancer medicines can cost more than £30,000 a year.

Can private insurance pay for the drugs?

Yes, they are usually covered under conventional medical insurance policies. WPA. a medical insurance company, has also brought out a policy to cover cancer medicines that the NHS does not routinely provide. The policy, called mycancerdrugs, offers insurance for expensive medicines from £55 a year.

How many people are involved?

The Sunday Times has already featured reports on eight cancer patients who have battled to co-pay for their medicines since we broke the story last December. An additional four patients are known to be taking legal action.

Rose Woodward of the Kidney Cancer Support Network is aware of about 120 kidney cancer patients who may wish to co-pay for medicines.

Doctors estimate that thousands of patients in total could be affected.

Link
 
I think we all have choices to make in life. We live in a less expensive home so we can still afford health insurance and vacations and all the other things we want. Yes we have to work 3 jobs between us to afford them but that is the way we have chosen to live. We don't blame anyone else for our own choices. We would never ever in a billion years be going to Disney World if we didn't have health insurance! We could skip insurance and probably work one job each and still go to Disney and live in a nicer house but OMG I would be a wreck worrying about what if??? My ex-boyfriend from a long time ago, didn't have insurance for a few months and during that time needed sudden open heart surgery!!!!! His parents paid out of pocket for it, it was outrageously expensive, he was young and no history of heart trouble or anything like that, he was lucky his parents had the means to pay or he would have been ruined financially. Since then I will never take a chance with health insurance, if that means I have to work harder/longer or live in a less fancy house then that's what I will do, I have to protect my kids and our health. Same with life insurance, I am always just blown away by the people who don't have life insurance or wills or living wills, it is just so much of a risk, of course you are not likely to die and leave your kids orphans but what if????????? I can't imagine doing that to my children, sorry. I am not trying to offend anyone but this is just the way we see it, we work for what we have and even if something is difficult or expensive to get, we still get it, we work harder until we can get it and that's the only option for us, period. Going without insurance isn't going to happen! Again not trying to be rude to anyone but I honestly can't imagine bringing a baby into the world on purpose knowing we had no insurance, what if that baby is like my friend's baby who was BORN WITH CANCER??? Yes, he was actually born with it and is lucky to be alive today, if they had no insurance they would be homeless now, it was more than a million dollars for treatment!!!!!!!! :scared1:
 
Then the choice is to PLAN AHEAD. Get a private plan to cover this eventuality. If you have continuous insurance they CAN NOT excluded preexisting conditions--that is a non-issue if you PLAN AHEAD. It is still a CHOICE no matter how you look at it. Yes, it might be expensive and you might have to cut out your Disney trip but crips, BE RESPONSIBLE. Sorry, sometimes being an adult means you have to make hard choices. Yes, everyone would love to go on a nice vacation each year but if it means you can't carry health insurance then you don't go on the vacation.

QUOTE]

As far as I can tell in searching for information, depending on idividual state rules, private plans CAN be denied to patients with pre-existing conditions, even if you have otherwise had continuous coverage to that point. As far as I can tell, HIPAA ensures that you can't be denied for group employer plans, not personal plans.

Respectfully, I just resent the implication that because people might not want to lose their homes to medical costs that they may be making irresponsible life choices. We have friends in the situations I have described in my previous posts, and it is sad to see them so concerned about future medical care. If they lose insurance, they could, in about 4 years without that insurance, lose their years of retirement savings and maybe their home due to the high costs of the required medical treatments ($180K per year). These are people who have always paid their bills, raised their children to be productive adults, saved for retirement, and vacationed only if all else was paid. Their yearly income certainly doesn't equal what would be the yearly medical bills. There is just no way they can plan ahead for this.

I would much rather pay higher taxes to ensure all citizens had medical insurance. Maybe we find a way to allow the coverage to be with the private insurance companies but allow the government to collect taxes to pay those premiums. I admit I am not an expert but there just has to be a way to make universal coverage a tolerable reality. It just feels like the right thing to do.
 

Then the choice is to PLAN AHEAD. Get a private plan to cover this eventuality. If you have continuous insurance they CAN NOT excluded preexisting conditions--that is a non-issue if you PLAN AHEAD. It is still a CHOICE no matter how you look at it. Yes, it might be expensive and you might have to cut out your Disney trip but crips, BE RESPONSIBLE. Sorry, sometimes being an adult means you have to make hard choices. Yes, everyone would love to go on a nice vacation each year but if it means you can't carry health insurance then you don't go on the vacation.

QUOTE]

As far as I can tell in searching for information, depending on idividual state rules, private plans CAN be denied to patients with pre-existing conditions, even if you have otherwise had continuous coverage to that point. As far as I can tell, HIPAA ensures that you can't be denied for group employer plans, not personal plans.

Respectfully, I just resent the implication that because people might not want to lose their homes to medical costs that they may be making irresponsible life choices. We have friends in the situations I have described in my previous posts, and it is sad to see them so concerned about future medical care. If they lose insurance, they could, in about 4 years without that insurance, lose their years of retirement savings and maybe their home due to the high costs of the required medical treatments ($180K per year). These are people who have always paid their bills, raised their children to be productive adults, saved for retirement, and vacationed only if all else was paid. Their yearly income certainly doesn't equal what would be the yearly medical bills. There is just no way they can plan ahead for this.

I would much rather pay higher taxes to ensure all citizens had medical insurance. Maybe we find a way to allow the coverage to be with the private insurance companies but allow the government to collect taxes to pay those premiums. I admit I am not an expert but there just has to be a way to make universal coverage a tolerable reality. It just feels like the right thing to do.

And even if the law says the insurance company can't deny you, there is nothing that says they can't charge you an arm and both legs for the coverage. I watched a documentary about plant closings in small towns, the kind that the plant is the only major employer in the area. It was mainly about US companies shiping jobs overseas, but a brief part did cover medical insurance.

One former employee was diabetic. When he lost his job, his family of course lost their medical insurance. He immediatly starts calling around to try to find private coverage for them. Just for HIM, he was quoted $2000 a month! He was able to get much more affordable coverage for his wife and kids (they had no pre-existing conditions), and he (at least at time of filming) was just going without, hoping he could find another job that could cover him.
 
Everybody knew I was going to show up here eventually, I hope you are all impressed that I managed to stay out of it this long!;)

No system is perfect. Certainly there are challenges with the Canadian and British UHC programs, but to quote an old beer slogan (Alexander Keith's, if anybody is interested): "Those who like it, like it alot!" Just as some of you in the US have fantastic insurance that is affordable and meets your family's needs, please acknowledge that this is may not be the case for some of your countrymen. Many American citizens either have inadequate insurance or no insurance at all. PLEASE also respect that most Canadians and residents of the UK, France, etc are very satisfied that we have access to some of the best medical care in the world, and are delighted that in a time of medical need or crisis we do not have the additional worry of how we are going to pay for it.

When we refer to "free" medical care, we mean that we don't have to reach in our pocket everytime we see a doctor or go to the hospital. I don't have to budget for an illness or to have a child. We understand that our insurance is not free. (Just like I am sure everyone ultimately understands "Free Dining" and "Free Transportation" when you stay onsite at WDW aren't really free. You pay for it with your resort fees just like we pay for our health care with taxes) We understand better than anyone that we are taxed at a higher rate to pay for the standard of medical care that we receive. And we are OKAY with that. Truly, we are.

I pay more in taxes now than I did 20 yrs ago, yet my medical needs are about the same as they were then. If I left my job tomorrow and never paid another dime in income tax, I would still have exactly the same medical care as I have today. Do you have any idea how reassuring that is? To never have to worry about how to pay to have a sick child treated. For those of us who love our UHC system, we cannot imagine any other way of life. We gladly pay our tax dollars to buy that peace of mind. It's okay with us if our tax dollars buy peace of mind for the unemployed and elderly as well. It is as completely foreign (pun intended) to us to have health insurance tied to an employer. For us, it seems ludicrous that one has anything to do with the other.

In terms of Canadian and American citizens, really the only thing we share is a continent. We are fundamentally ideologically and philosophically different. It is just the way we are wired. We don't understand why you don't embrace UHC, and you can't understand how we can put up with our tax dollars paying for other citizens to get something for nothing. We pay higher taxes, but for the most part we are satisfied that we are getting value for our dollar.

Somebody (sarcastically) commented on Canada being Utopia...well, not exactly but most Canadians would agree we've got it pretty darn good in this country and most of us believe we live in the greatest country in the world.
 
most Canadians would agree we've got it pretty darn good in this country and most of us believe we live in the greatest country in the world.


I haven't read all the posts, but this is exactly how I feel about the United States of America. It isn't perfect, but IMO it is the greatest country on earth.

ETA: BTW, I am glad Canadians feel the same way about their country.
 
/
Wow did this thread go:offtopic:

OP I hope you are feeling better. I hope you get a definitive diagnosis. I hope you are able to work something out with the hospital regarding your bill.

What ever happened to coming on the DIS to vent?? Many of you should be ashamed for the flaming you gave this OP.
 
I keep seeing mention of those who have no insurance. I have to add that not every insurance policy is great either even if it is better than nothing.

We had horrible insurance last year complete with high co-pays and deductibles plus we had to pay a healthy percentage. When DH had his health problems, the hospital bills were amazing even with insurance and I can't imagine how people who get paid little manage. I also saw the breakdowns of what people who don't have insurance get charged and that floored me. OP, keep in mind that those with insurance pay negotiated rates. The numbers when there is no negotiation are truly astounding.
 
Kath2003,
It sounds like your system is a pay as you go system. How can you be sure that in 40 years you will actually get your UK pension?

I am asking this as it applies to SS here in the US. When it started out there were many payers to one on SS. It was pay as your go with a surplus. Then the baby boomers were born.

We got older and had smaller families. Now I belive it is 2 workers to 1 on SS and soon, after all the baby boomers all retire, they are projecting numbers like 1 worker to 2 on SS. There is no way to pay as you go then.

I am not sure about the ages in the UK, but my understanding is what the US is seeing is the same as Japan (who is actually ahead of us) and the rest of the first world.


This was never answered and got lost in the long thread.

I ask anybody with UHC to please address this. Thank you.
 
This was never answered and got lost in the long thread.

I ask anybody with UHC to please address this. Thank you.

Sorry, here's the answer.

I guess there's no GUARANTEE that you'll get that pension but there'd be absolute uproar if people ended up NOT getting them. You get letters through every year with details of how much your pension is at this point in time. We have no reason to suspect that the policy will be removed. At the moment, we're coming up to paying for the baby boomers, and there's no forecast which says that this will be an issue, nor is there a forecast rise in the rate of tax.. The UK's birth rate has stabilised, I see no reason why we would not receive our pension.
 
I know in Canada (which is different that the UK in this regard) no one relies on Old age pension supporting them. We have your equiv. of 401K's. WE have employer pension plans. Canadians know that the Canadian Pension Plan will not be enough to live on...although I do expect to get it. Currently it pays ~25% of the earnings on which a person's contributions were based. To a max. of 828.00/month. (Once you hit a certain % of your income yearly you stop paying into the plan as you will no longer get the 25% out of it. That way it's equitable for all).

We don't pay alot into the pension plan though. We get what we pay for.
 
Sorry, here's the answer.

I guess there's no GUARANTEE that you'll get that pension but there'd be absolute uproar if people ended up NOT getting them. You get letters through every year with details of how much your pension is at this point in time. We have no reason to suspect that the policy will be removed. At the moment, we're coming up to paying for the baby boomers, and there's no forecast which says that this will be an issue, nor is there a forecast rise in the rate of tax.. The UK's birth rate has stabilised, I see no reason why we would not receive our pension.

Gosh, my Mum got her British Pension till the day she died, living here in Canada.. as does my sister to this day..and she also lives here. I would think they would be 'doing away' with this, LONG before any such thing would affect the people that live there year round. No Country protects its elderly more that the U.K IMO.
 
To reply to someone who wondered about prescription charges in the UK.....

Prescriptions are free to ......
all over the age of 60 (whether or not they are retired)
all under the age of 16
full time students aged 16 - 19
those claiming certain unemployment benefits
pregnant women or women who have given birth in the last 12 months
people with certain long term/chronic conditions (diabetes, epilepsy, thyroid conditions etc)
those on low incomes (which would include those on long term disability benefits)

As you can imagine the majority of prescriptions are given to those in the above groups. The remainder of the population must pay a standard charge of $12 for a months supply of medicine. Sometimes it turns out cheaper to buy your medicine over-the-counter but in the vast majority of cases the $12 is far far cheaper than the real cost of the medicine. The rest of the cost is met by the NHS.

Dental procedures are also free to people in the above groups (excluding the long term medical condition category). Others must pay a standard charge depending on the treatment. The rest of the cost is met by the NHS.

Oh ...except if you have an extraction in hospital - then it counts as hospital treatment and is, of course, completely free. I have had 3 wisdom teeth removed and each time went to hospital as a day patient and got free treatment.
 
I know in Canada (which is different that the UK in this regard) no one relies on Old age pension supporting them. We have your equiv. of 401K's. WE have employer pension plans. Canadians know that the Canadian Pension Plan will not be enough to live on...although I do expect to get it. Currently it pays ~25% of the earnings on which a person's contributions were based. To a max. of 828.00/month. (Once you hit a certain % of your income yearly you stop paying into the plan as you will no longer get the 25% out of it. That way it's equitable for all).

We don't pay alot into the pension plan though. We get what we pay for.

Totally agree. It will be 'extra' that's about all. Up to us to have a nest egg to live well on..
 
There is a direct correlation between oral health and physical health. The mouth gives germs a direct line to the blood stream.

Have you looked into a dental school to get your teeth cleaned and work done. When I was younger I remember the local school that was for hygenist did the cleanings for free. I am not sure about other work.

Once our class went there for a tour. It was an interesting place.

I'm aware of that. Unfortunately, I can't get to the school. No vehicle and no one available to take me in the middle of the day.


EVERYONE has a choice to better themselves or to get out of poverty or to buy health insurance. Your lot in life IS your choice. In the US there is ALWAYS something you can do about it. That doesn't mean it is easy but there IS ALWAYS a choice to change where you are in life. ALWAYS.

As for house values, they vary by area. A $700,000 house in San Diego would be a rundown shack without plumbing. It is all relative dear.

As for affording insurance, we can afford insurance because we worked hard in school, got college degrees--which we paid for by ourselves for EVERY dime, made good career choices and were careful with money. DH's first job paid $16,000/year but you know what, he was offered jobs that paid twice that with minimal benefits. Why did he take that job--because we had excellent health care, an incredible pension plan and a whole host of other benefits that made the total package worth a whole lot more then the other companies could come up with.

If you can't find a job, move--there is a choice. If the only job is a paper route, take the paper route to afford your insurance premiums--there is a choice.

I feel bad for your dad but again, what choices did he make to prepare himself for retirement? Again, his CHOICES put him where he is at now.

I have plenty of experience with people unlike me because we WERE there at one time in our life and our CHOICES got us where we are today. DH's Dad worked 3 jobs, 16 hours/day, 6 days/week so his kids could EAT. Do you think he didn't stress to his kids to work hard in school and do better then him. Even with his low income they have a nice size retirement pension, good health care coverage, their house is paid for, their cars are paid for--why, they never went to Disney for one.

You know, I'm just really tired of you pretty much saying that everyone that is poor are just plain lazy and utter morons.
While some lucky people get out of whatever situation they were born into, most don't.
I guess you need to show me the way, Oh Wise One. I must have made the wrong choice to have an ovarian cyst. I must have made the wrong choice in wanting to be physically allergic to cheap products. I must have made the wrong choice in bodies. I must have made the wrong choice to either be employed or unemployed. I must have made the wrong choice in every single aspect of my life.
Give me a better choice.
Oh. And please, please, show me where I can live for only $150 per month and have my rent and utilities paid for. Or please show me where to get a job that will pay for all my expensive necessities. Like shoes, clothes, soap, shampoo, laundry detergent, allergy medicine, etc.
Oh wait. I guess I have to make the choice to live on the streets and go naked, dirty, smelly and hungry.

While I did make some dumb choices such as getting into debt when I was younger, I learned from those mistakes. Unfortunately, after that debt was almost completely paid off, I had to accrue another one because of my medical problems. Even though I had insurance.

Ok, but do you realize that one bad accident can RUIN your financial future just because you won't buy health insurance?? It can happen in the blink of an eye--car accident=$300,000+ in medical bills--how would you pay those off???? Forget the house you want, the vacations you like, forget ever getting a car loan, NOTHING. Put $100 into your vacation fund and at least get a catastrophic plan so you don't ruin your entire future.

One bad bit of luck like bad genes that cause cancer can land you in the streets with nothing to your name even with insurance.

Many people are missing a very important point. It is NOT ALWAYS A CHOICE whether you purchase insurance or not.

Example: Let's say one spouse is older than the other. Let's then say the younger spouse isn't working full-time anymore due to a condition requiring on-going medical treatment. The older spouse retires, or otherwise becomes unable to work, but the younger spouse can't qualify for Medicare yet because he/she isn't 65. If the younger spouse can't hold down a full-time job that offers insurance after the spouse retires, he/she will likely NOT be able to purchase insurance at ANY price that will cover the existing condition. The insurance companies are likely to list the condition as EXCLUDED. They could lose their home through no fault or choice of their own, or face the choice of not being treated. And, until the loss of insurance actually happens, the family spends years worrying about what to do when it does happen. Is this the way we want to treat our fellow citizens, citizens who have otherwise worked as hard as they could all their lives? I have no facts, but would guess there are more of these situations out there than people think. Unexceptable, in my opinion.

Exactly! My mother was sick for 20 years with an extremely rare blood disease. Do you think she could carry the exact same policy for all that time? One she was diagnosed for something, it was excluded in the policy the next time the company (worked for the same co for 30 years) changed policies. Even within the same insurance company. It increasingly got more expensive for her to even carry insurance that wouldn't cover most of her health problems. And because my parents made too much money, she couldn't qualify for any assistance. Thousands upon thousands upon more thousands of dollars were paid out of my parents pockets. But I guess according to some, that was their choice for her to get sick. Or her choice to not die right away after getting sick.

Another thing (and this might have already been mentioned), my company's primary excuse for moving many operations to South America is the high cost of employing Americans particularly when it comes to paying for healthcare. If the burden of paying for healthcare is taken away from businesses will they be as prone to close American offices?

Oh no! Why try to keep businesses here and keep Americans employed? ;)

you just proved my point perfectly. That wouldn't happen to her here because of our healthcare plan.

I'm done now.

Oh and no, I don't pay alot for my igloo but paying for the heaters to keep my lawn green in July just about kills me. ;)

But it doesn't matter as long as it doesn't happen to them. ;)
Oh, while I hate the cold, I love polar bears. Send some my way please! :)

How did she prove your point? She never, ever said that anyone should go without health care. In fact, she said that people should make sure that they have insurance so that they don't lose everything. At least a catastrophic policy at the minimum.

Having health insurance is huge for me. I will do anything to make sure that my family is insured. I would find a job just for the medical insurance if necessary. It is my responsibility to take care of my family and I would make whatever choice I needed to do so.

But many people simply can't get insurance. If they can barely afford a low level policy, even a small problem can put them in the poor house.

this is what some are not understanding. Some people have no choice to not have insurance. My choice is to either get a really poor one and go without food, clothes, shoes, allergy medicine and being clean or have all those necessary things and not have insurance. Which would be your choice? No one has answered that for me. I can't find another job. Not even a second one. Not one that I can actually get to. The only places around me that I can get a second job at is food places. And some food smells actually make me throw up. Literally. It's not something I can control. I just smell the food and I throw up. That would make for a pleasant dining experience.:headache:

But the reality is, jobs with healthcare are disappearing.

Heck, jobs in general are disappearing! I certainly believe that you would look for a job with insurance, but what if no one would hire you? There's A LOT of competition for jobs these days. Depending on your situation, You could go months, even years, without a job. Or, you could walk into your job, and find it no longer offers health insurance. That's happening to more people.

And in my area, they don't even hire TEMPS anymore, so you can't go that route either.

Our system is hopelessly broken. The ones still clinging to it are the last few whose benefits haven't been cut.

Exactly. In fact the main downtown Indy branch of Manpower closed down due to lack of business 2 years ago. Everyone is going to lower wages, lower benefits (if any) and/or contract positions. Which is why I'm pretty well stuck in my job. Contracted in so there's no where to go in the company and I get zero benefits. Not my choice. It was all I could find in 6 months. But according to some, I should have remained unemployed for god knows how much longer and hold out for that non-existant great benefits job.

I guess I would deal with that if I was faced with it. I would exhaust every option I had to.

I have to say though that we really must live in different worlds. I don't personally know anyone who doesn't have insurance with their jobs. And I'm not just talking about my local circle. I'm referring to my friends and family in other states too. If I didn't know better, from reading this board I would honestly think that there are only about 10% of us left who still have insurance. :confused3 Obviously the situation is not nearly so dire (not to say that the system doesn't need reform). I can see why our friends from the UK and Canada are so horrified. They probably don't realize that many people in the US are perfectly happy with their insurance situation.

Yes. You must live in a different world. Because I know lots of people that don't have benefits other than a week or maybe 2 week vacation. Then they go on vacation and they're still expected to be reachable.
 
Totally agree. It will be 'extra' that's about all. Up to us to have a nest egg to live well on..

In fairness I wouldn't want to have to live on the State Pension alone - it is not overly generous. The UK have a guaranteed income for pensioners - a single pensioner will get a minimum of $248 dollars a week while a married couple will get a minimum of $378. If they had only that amount they would also qualify for getting their rent and property tax (council tax) paid.
It's not enough to live in a great deal of comfort so we are all encouraged to join the company pension scheme as well.
 
But they DO still have a choice, get a minimum wage job that has benefits, Walmart, Target, Starbucks, etc. all offer insurance for employees. Many, many companies do. It doesn't matter how much you make, be responsible and find a company with benefits.



Then the choice is to PLAN AHEAD. Get a private plan to cover this eventuality. If you have continuous insurance they CAN NOT excluded preexisting conditions--that is a non-issue if you PLAN AHEAD. It is still a CHOICE no matter how you look at it. Yes, it might be expensive and you might have to cut out your Disney trip but crips, BE RESPONSIBLE. Sorry, sometimes being an adult means you have to make hard choices. Yes, everyone would love to go on a nice vacation each year but if it means you can't carry health insurance then you don't go on the vacation.



Ok, so what are the limits on your policy? If your medical bills exceed that, you still have to pay for that. I don't know what kind of medical coverage you have on your policy in your state, PIP or med pay, but there ARE limitations to that. An auto accident is a perfect example since it can and DOES happen all the time. Ask the girl in the neighboring town how she would pay for her medical bills if she didn't have health insurance. She was in an accident in August--her auto insurance exhausted her coverage, $250,000 in ONE DAY in the hospital. After 4 months in the hospital and several MILLION dollars later, she can finally walk again.



Ok, but there is coverage, medicaid and other state plans, available for these situations. There IS coverage available for EVERY PERSON in the US. If they aren't working and don't have an income they qualify for medicaid, plain and simple.

You still have a CHOICE to move or not--it won't always be easy but you still have a CHOICE. Lower the price of your house, rent it out, etc. Send your spouse on to a new job while you wait to sell your house....Making choices isn't always easy and because they are hard people think they don't have a choice. You ALWAYS, ALWAYS, ALWAYS have a choice in EVERY situation. Not wanting to move is a CHOICE too. I completely understand not wanted to uproot and move for a better job, however you have to realize that by doing that you made a CHOICE not to have health insurance. You also give up your right to complain about that situation when you haven't done anything to CHANGE your situation.

I do feel the need to say that some may be in for a rude awakening in a few years when you decide to retire. Some will be lucky and have an employer who will continue coverage after retirement. Many will not.

I worked for a large company (over 10,000 employees) for 30 years. I had very good insurance coverage, but there was no provision for continuing health coverage after retirement. I went on Cobra for about 16 months and then had to find a private company. I did find insurance and have it now. I pay about $800 a month for my coverage. That is not the issue.

When I took out my policy, BC/BS went back through my medical history and put riders on my policy. They do not cover anything that was previously noted in my medical history. For instance, they will not cover anything having to do with acid reflux. I had breast cancer. They give me very limited coverage for anything having to do with the breast. I had to have the implant that was put in following my mastectomy removed last year when it ruptured. Of the entire cost of the surgery, the covered $400. My daughter is also insured by BC/BS. She has had IBS since she was a baby. They will not cover anything related to IBS. I once took her to a clinic because she had be vomiting far too long and needed something to stop it. BC/BS would not cover the doctor visit because it had to do with her gastrointestinal track even though it really wasn't IBS. They are very picky about their coverage.

I looked at many different insurance companies and this was true of the majority of them. Finding insurance that covers all your needs following retirement is difficult. I was a responsible person and always had insurance coverage. It is not about being lazy or irresponsible. There are some things that happen that are just out of a person's control. Believe me, I'd love to have a policy that would cover anything that could happen to me. I haven't been able to find one.
 
But they DO still have a choice, get a minimum wage job that has benefits, Walmart, Target, Starbucks, etc. all offer insurance for employees. Many, many companies do. It doesn't matter how much you make, be responsible and find a company with benefits.



Then the choice is to PLAN AHEAD. Get a private plan to cover this eventuality. If you have continuous insurance they CAN NOT excluded preexisting conditions--that is a non-issue if you PLAN AHEAD. It is still a CHOICE no matter how you look at it. Yes, it might be expensive and you might have to cut out your Disney trip but crips, BE RESPONSIBLE. Sorry, sometimes being an adult means you have to make hard choices. Yes, everyone would love to go on a nice vacation each year but if it means you can't carry health insurance then you don't go on the vacation.



Ok, so what are the limits on your policy? If your medical bills exceed that, you still have to pay for that. I don't know what kind of medical coverage you have on your policy in your state, PIP or med pay, but there ARE limitations to that. An auto accident is a perfect example since it can and DOES happen all the time. Ask the girl in the neighboring town how she would pay for her medical bills if she didn't have health insurance. She was in an accident in August--her auto insurance exhausted her coverage, $250,000 in ONE DAY in the hospital. After 4 months in the hospital and several MILLION dollars later, she can finally walk again.



Ok, but there is coverage, medicaid and other state plans, available for these situations. There IS coverage available for EVERY PERSON in the US. If they aren't working and don't have an income they qualify for medicaid, plain and simple.

You still have a CHOICE to move or not--it won't always be easy but you still have a CHOICE. Lower the price of your house, rent it out, etc. Send your spouse on to a new job while you wait to sell your house....Making choices isn't always easy and because they are hard people think they don't have a choice. You ALWAYS, ALWAYS, ALWAYS have a choice in EVERY situation. Not wanting to move is a CHOICE too. I completely understand not wanted to uproot and move for a better job, however you have to realize that by doing that you made a CHOICE not to have health insurance. You also give up your right to complain about that situation when you haven't done anything to CHANGE your situation.

There is NOT covereage for EVERYONE in the US if they CAN'T PAY for it!

Is choice the only word you know? Do you not read what is written? The word choice is the only word I've seen you spouting off to everyone. Sorry, but you're sounding like a broken record.

How can someone plan ahead and save ahead when they don't have enough income to pay for the necessities?

If you think there is some policy for me, please direct me to it because I have not found it. I can maybe afford $50 per month max for it. I also do not qualify for any free programs. Been there, done that.

When I read stuff like this, I don't think living in a country with a "broken" health care system (that needs some reform) is all that bad. More and more UK citizens are being kicked out of their own national health care scheme due to a Catch-22. The government is refusing to pay for potentially life saving drugs for patients with certain forms of cancer because, even though doctors think the drugs are their best chance for survival, they don't work in enough cases for the government's drug rationing committee to deem them "cost-effective" and provide them for free. So, many people in the UK facing a death sentence are opting to pay for the drugs themselves, often with the aid of community fund raisers. The catch is that if you do you, you're kicked out of the national health care program for everything. Many people, including doctors, want changes in these rules, but what's amazing are the people that actual argue that the current rules should be retained because it's not "fair" that some UK citizens can get the drugs, but not others.

It's not perfect. But we can take it and build on it to make it more perfect.

Do you really think that people here can get the treatments needed all the time?

How about the man that was just on Nightline the other night? He went to Mexico to have his prostate cancer treated with something that was developed in the US, approved to use everywhere else in the world but in the US.

There are multitudes of stories in the news about people being refused treatments because their insurance company won't pay for it.

News Flash!
We already have that problem here!

Rankings of the World's heathcare. From WHO.

1 France
2 Italy
3 San Marino
4 Andorra
5 Malta
6 Singapore
7 Spain
8 Oman
9 Austria
10 Japan
11 Norway
12 Portugal
13 Monaco
14 Greece
15 Iceland
16 Luxembourg
17 Netherlands
18 United Kingdom
19 Ireland
20 Switzerland
21 Belgium
22 Colombia
23 Sweden
24 Cyprus
25 Germany
26 Saudi Arabia
27 United Arab Emirates
28 Israel
29 Morocco
30 Canada
31 Finland
32 Australia
33 Chile
34 Denmark
35 Dominica
36 Costa Rica
37 United States of America

sucks to be Myanmar.....sorry,had to say it

Sucks to be in the US when we don't have UHC because we supposedly have the best healthcare in the world and we are actually 37th in the World.
We are supposed to be the best nation in the world with the best healthcare and yet we rank 37th?

According to the Economist, The US also ranks 13th in Quality of life (based on 2005 data). I'm sure it may be worse now.

We've become delusional. Or at lease some have. Those of us that have a little more balance in our life or have seen the other side are more realistic in our new placing in the world.
Yet so many people resist us trying to catch up to the rest of the world while they're leaving us behind.
 
I do feel the need to say that some may be in for a rude awakening in a few years when you decide to retire. Some will be lucky and have an employer who will continue coverage after retirement. Many will not.

I worked for a large company (over 10,000 employees) for 30 years. I had very good insurance coverage, but there was no provision for continuing health coverage after retirement. I went on Cobra for about 16 months and then had to find a private company. I did find insurance and have it now. I pay about $800 a month for my coverage. That is not the issue.

When I took out my policy, BC/BS went back through my medical history and put riders on my policy. They do not cover anything that was previously noted in my medical history. For instance, they will not cover anything having to do with acid reflux. I had breast cancer. They give me very limited coverage for anything having to do with the breast. I had to have the implant that was put in following my mastectomy removed last year when it ruptured. Of the entire cost of the surgery, the covered $400. My daughter is also insured by BC/BS. She has had IBS since she was a baby. They will not cover anything related to IBS. I once took her to a clinic because she had be vomiting far too long and needed something to stop it. BC/BS would not cover the doctor visit because it had to do with her gastrointestinal track even though it really wasn't IBS. They are very picky about their coverage.

I looked at many different insurance companies and this was true of the majority of them. Finding insurance that covers all your needs following retirement is difficult. I was a responsible person and always had insurance coverage. It is not about being lazy or irresponsible. There are some things that happen that are just out of a person's control. Believe me, I'd love to have a policy that would cover anything that could happen to me. I haven't been able to find one.
My health insurance will stay with me in retirement and once I am 62 (when medicare kicks in) it then converts to a supplimental.
 













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