13 Year old gir declared brain dead has now officially died

[lauradis]

There are things worse than death.

An IL of mine was in an accident 30 years ago. She was a lovely 23 year old dance major with a brand new degree.

She is not brain dead, but her life is horrible. She is tube fed, cannot walk or even sit up, is in diapers and maybe has the mental capacity of someone 6 months old. Maybe not - as she cannot even sit up.

I only hope she does not have the mental capacity to know her situation.

Keeping someone alive who is brain dead is cruel and unusual punishment.

On the other hand the young man who just won the 2013 Disney Spirit award is a quadriplegic. But he has a wonderful mind, a bright smile and is a joy and inspiration to many. "He" is till there in spite of a body that is damaged.

The real question is why do we do this to humans?

Would we do this to a dog that we love (tube feed, cant walk or sit, diapers)?

Yes, I just compared human children to fur babies.

 

[Feralpeg]

Please proof read my post. I stated, "can someone survive ON life support and continue to regenerate cells, all that jazz, when the brain has been declared to be dead?" I am quite smart enough to know that they will not survive OFF life support, even if I don't know the rules.

Maybe, I can help. My mom was on life support for a short time after having a major brain bleed. She had no brain activity.

Life support supplies oxygen. The respirator makes the lungs move. As long as there is oxygen moving, the heart continues to beat. Since the body is only receiving nourishment from an IV, the bowels are not working as normal. Eventually, without any change, everything will begin to shut down anyway. The body can become septic. This is the way the doctor explained the situation to us. We took my mom off life support within 24 hours. She was gone in about 20 minutes.

I also think the family is just in denial. It would be so hard with a small child to accept something like this.

 

[JillyBean1899]

Those aren't the two questions most Doctor's would expect as they don't really show quality of life. Being brain dead is a totally different situation than having to have someone help you in your day to day care. A lot of seniors in nursing homes would say no to both of your questions, but they are not in a situation where the plug would be pulled.

Quality of life is a relative thing. If I can't make the decision for myself, I don't want my mom to feel like she would be "killing" me if she pulls me off life support. It is my choice to not have anyone have to take care of me. I'd rather have my organs donated and sent to people that need them then have them sit in my body that is doing absolutely nothing.

But again, that's my personal opinion. For the sake of argument, assuming there is a God that exists (and I'm not going to state my views either way on this topic), how can anyone say they know what he/she/it is thinking and wants? How do they not know that this God put their daughter in this position because he/she/it knows that the daughter would be able to help people by donating her organs? They could be going completely against what God wants by thinking they know what God wants.

 

[mommy2allgirls]

Wow my heart is aching for all involved. I can't imagine being in the parents position with one of my kids declared brain dead. I don't know how I could handle that. I already get extremely emotional when my kids are really ill or something bad happened.

I'm interested in what will happen

Sent from my iPhone using DISBoards

 

[Feralpeg]

I am confused about how her heart is still beating. Everything I have read says she is on a ventilator which I though only did the "breathing". If her brain and brain stem are dead how is her heart still beating, and are the rest of her organs still functioning?

As the doctor explained it to us, the heart is simply a pump driven by electrical impulse fueled by oxygen. As long as the oxygen is continued, the heart will beat...for a time. Eventually, without the brain to control things, it will all turn sour and things will begin shutting down even with support.

 

[Feralpeg]

Why? Because people answered your original question and you decided to change what you wanted and we answered that but you didn't like the answers?

You didn't really answer her question. She wanted to know what happens to the other organs once the brain is dead and how does life support keep the rest of the body functioning. You did not answer that question. You just told her to go to Google. I and a couple of other people answered this question, but I think you already chased her away.

 

[bdcp]

You didn't really answer her question. She wanted to know what happens to the other organs once the brain is dead. You did not answer that question. You just told her to go to Google. I and a couple of other people answered this question, but I think you already chased her away.

THe point was we answered the OP's first question, then they got huffy when someone mentioned the "rule". Plus, as I said, this is not a medical site, which is why I mentioned google for the correct info. Please read how many times he/she got upset that a "rule" was mentioned even after we explained it to him/her.

The OP apparently seemed to dislike the fact that we were discussing the situation and not giving him/her attention.

 

[bbak3030]

I am confused about how her heart is still beating. Everything I have read says she is on a ventilator which I though only did the "breathing". If her brain and brain stem are dead how is her heart still beating, and are the rest of her organs still functioning?

The part of the brain that controls the breathing is dead, hence the ventilator. The brain does not control the heart, so it will continue on its own despite her respiratory status.

As an ER nurse, I often see people who have absolutely NO quality of life, but are kept alive via feeding tubes and other things. It breaks my heart and I would never do it to my loved ones, but I see a side that not everyone does. Just like I wouldn't make someone who is 85 years old with terminal cancer a full code. But it's not our call, so we do everything we can when it's needed.

All I can think about is this poor girl who will probably succumb to some sort of infection like pneumonia from the vent. Or it will all be too much and her heart will stop-- causing chest compressions that will break her ribs. It's a sad situation and I truly feel for her family.

 

[Luv Bunnies]

For those who asked how a routine tonsillectomy could have resulted in so much bleeding and why the girl was in the ICU, this surgery was much more involved. The girl suffered from sleep apnea due to enlarged tonsils and extra tissue in her nose and throat. Besides removing her tonsils, they removed quite a bit of extra tissue that was blocking her from breathing properly at night. This left a much larger operative site that had more potential for bleeding. She did wake up after the surgery and was eating a popsicle when the she started bleeding from her nose and mouth. Her mom and grandma called the nurse, who said it was normal post-operative bleeding. The nurse gave them cups to catch the blood and pretty much left them on their own. When it didn't stop, they called the nurse over and that's when it became clear that she had lost too much blood and she was going into cardiac arrest. It's hard to fathom how a girl could be allowed to bleed to death in the ICU where she is supposed to be constantly monitored by staff, not just family.

 

[ilovemk76]

That is a very tragic story. I do not believe in life support for a person in her condition.

 

[Feralpeg]

THe point was we answered the OP's first question, then they got huffy when someone mentioned the "rule". Plus, as I said, this is not a medical site, which is why I mentioned google for the correct info. Please read how many times he/she got upset that a "rule" was mentioned even after we explained it to him/her.

The OP apparently seemed to dislike the fact that we were discussing the situation and not giving him/her attention.

I read the entire thread. I never saw her original question answered until much later in the thread. It doesn't matter if you don't think this is a medical site. People ask medical questions here all the time. She had the right to ask. I had the right to answer. I guess you had the right to tell her to Google, although I think it was a bit rude. I also thought a lot of people were jumping on the rule thing...people don't bother to read to see if it was already answered before they answer.

Anyway, I just don't see the need for people to be so snippy with others on these threads. Why not play nice?

 

[bdcp]

That is a very tragic story. I do not believe in life support for a person in her condition.

I think most people outside of her immediate family agree. She's not really "alive" anymore, but her body is being kept alive artificially. Taking her off the ventilator would probably mean her heart would stop within minutes.

 

[bdcp]

I read the entire thread. I never saw her original question answered until much later in the thread. It doesn't matter if you don't think this is a medical site. People ask medical questions here all the time. She had the right to ask. I had the right to answer. I guess you had the right to tell her to Google, although I think it was a bit rude. I also thought a lot of people were jumping on the rule thing...people don't bother to read to see if it was already answered before they answer.

Anyway, I just don't see the need for people to be so snippy with others on these threads. Why not play nice?

Her original question was what were people's opinions. She/he got snippy when the rule was mentioned. And, then, after saying he/she understood, complained about the "rule" took her toys and went home. The rule was only mentioned briefly and explained, then she complained about it, like the rule was personal. It made no sense.

My post where I mentioned to search was not rude in the least. I gave some information and then told him/her to look it up as this isn't a medical site. How exactly was that rude?

The entire point of this thread started because the OP asked people's opinions. People gave them. The OP took it off track and got defensive about the "rule".

 

[livie1205]

I agree 100% that the poor baby is dead but I understand not wanting to take her off the vent, Im not sure if that was my baby I could do it, I could not loose that last warm touch and watch that all go away... I understand wanting to have her so they can see and hold her.yes, that is selfish but its natural not wanting to let go of your child. Its heartbreaking.

 

[lauradis]

For those who asked how a routine tonsillectomy could have resulted in so much bleeding and why the girl was in the ICU, this surgery was much more involved. The girl suffered from sleep apnea due to enlarged tonsils and extra tissue in her nose and throat. Besides removing her tonsils, they removed quite a bit of extra tissue that was blocking her from breathing properly at night. This left a much larger operative site that had more potential for bleeding. She did wake up after the surgery and was eating a popsicle when the she started bleeding from her nose and mouth. Her mom and grandma called the nurse, who said it was normal post-operative bleeding. The nurse gave them cups to catch the blood and pretty much left them on their own. When it didn't stop, they called the nurse over and that's when it became clear that she had lost too much blood and she was going into cardiac arrest. It's hard to fathom how a girl could be allowed to bleed to death in the ICU where she is supposed to be constantly monitored by staff, not just family.

after surgery you normally go to recovery not an ICU. Recovery staff levels per patient are pretty high compared to a ICU ratio.

 

[The Mystery Machine]

For those who asked how a routine tonsillectomy could have resulted in so much bleeding and why the girl was in the ICU, this surgery was much more involved. The girl suffered from sleep apnea due to enlarged tonsils and extra tissue in her nose and throat. Besides removing her tonsils, they removed quite a bit of extra tissue that was blocking her from breathing properly at night. This left a much larger operative site that had more potential for bleeding. She did wake up after the surgery and was eating a popsicle when the she started bleeding from her nose and mouth. Her mom and grandma called the nurse, who said it was normal post-operative bleeding. The nurse gave them cups to catch the blood and pretty much left them on their own. When it didn't stop, they called the nurse over and that's when it became clear that she had lost too much blood and she was going into cardiac arrest. It's hard to fathom how a girl could be allowed to bleed to death in the ICU where she is supposed to be constantly monitored by staff, not just family.

So, if what you say is true then quite possibly her death could have resulted from the "extra tissue" removal and not the tonsil removal.

The post op thing is a little disturbing. If she was losing that much blood, her blood pressure and heart rate would more than likely have not been normal.

Since she was with her loved ones and eating a popsicle, more than like she was in "recovery" where they are less attentive than in the immediate "post op recovery".

We do not know how much blood she lost during surgery.

I don't know about this girl and her case. There certainly may have been errors on the part of the medical staff at some point. We just do not know.

 

[DisneyJamieCA]

Only going from what I've seen/heard on our local news, the family is who went to media with the story. The hospital was going to disconnect the vent before Christmas and the family got a court injunction until this Monday. They were the first to speak out. The hospital hasn't yet (publicly anyway) said what happened. It's possible they don't know, especially if the stories of some of her health issues are true. It may be that they do know and are covering their butts. For those calling this a minor surgery - no surgery that involves anesthesia is minor! It may routine, but that does not make it minor, especially if there are underlying issues. My grandmother needed a temporary feeding tube placed, relatively routine, but because of a weakened heart, the anesthesiologist had a very frank conversation with us about how there was a good possibility she wouldn't survive the surgery and he was really feeling like he shouldn't be doing it. She wanted it done, so they did it (and she survived that part), but would it have been his fault if she hadn't made it when he clearly went over the major risks with us? That doesn't make me feel any less bad for this family - my heart breaks for them and I can understand their grief & devastation, but every surgery has a risk.

As for the other spin off discussion about quality of life - that is for each person to determine for themselves. Somebody said those two questions wouldn't be one a doctor would hear often. I disagree. There are a lot of people who feel if they can't retain some normalcy in life, they are done. And going to the bathroom on their own is a big one for many. I lost my both my grandparents at the end of last year and they both had their wishes very clearly spelled out (thankfully) and it was still agonizing to follow it. Both refused to be bed ridden for the rest of their lives or kept alive my artificial means (for one that was a permanent feeding tube, the other a vent) when there is no chance of getting better. To tie it back to the convo and the way the parents are feeling (and I understand very well that aging grandparents are different from a child. I have almost lost a child) - removing life support is heartbreaking. You feel like you are giving up on them. You wonder what if we had just waited. I understand where they are mentally/emotionally. I hope with time they can come to understand what brain dead truly means and come to terms with they did everything they could.

 

[trip]

For those who asked how a routine tonsillectomy could have resulted in so much bleeding and why the girl was in the ICU, this surgery was much more involved. The girl suffered from sleep apnea due to enlarged tonsils and extra tissue in her nose and throat. Besides removing her tonsils, they removed quite a bit of extra tissue that was blocking her from breathing properly at night. This left a much larger operative site that had more potential for bleeding. She did wake up after the surgery and was eating a popsicle when the she started bleeding from her nose and mouth. Her mom and grandma called the nurse, who said it was normal post-operative bleeding. The nurse gave them cups to catch the blood and pretty much left them on their own. When it didn't stop, they called the nurse over and that's when it became clear that she had lost too much blood and she was going into cardiac arrest. It's hard to fathom how a girl could be allowed to bleed to death in the ICU where she is supposed to be constantly monitored by staff, not just family.

The parents must be in shock. Once they accept the daughters' condition, they will be able to handle it.

Then the law suits will begin.

 

[StitchesGr8Fan]

For those who asked how a routine tonsillectomy could have resulted in so much bleeding and why the girl was in the ICU, this surgery was much more involved. The girl suffered from sleep apnea due to enlarged tonsils and extra tissue in her nose and throat. Besides removing her tonsils, they removed quite a bit of extra tissue that was blocking her from breathing properly at night. This left a much larger operative site that had more potential for bleeding. She did wake up after the surgery and was eating a popsicle when the she started bleeding from her nose and mouth. Her mom and grandma called the nurse, who said it was normal post-operative bleeding. The nurse gave them cups to catch the blood and pretty much left them on their own. When it didn't stop, they called the nurse over and that's when it became clear that she had lost too much blood and she was going into cardiac arrest. It's hard to fathom how a girl could be allowed to bleed to death in the ICU where she is supposed to be constantly monitored by staff, not just family.

The CNN and NBC news articles I read when the story first broke said she was not moved to the ICU until AFTER the bleeding started and it was clear it was going to become a life threatening situation, not that she was put in the ICU immediately post op. Was that information incorrect?

 

[MSLRAC]

The CNN and NBC news articles I read when the story first broke said she was not moved to the ICU until AFTER the bleeding started and it was clear it was going to become a life threatening situation, not that she was put in the ICU immediately post op. Was that information incorrect?

That's what I read too. She was going to be kept overnight because of the nature of the surgery, she woke up, was eating ice cream or a popsicle, the bleeding started and her grandma went for help. Some nurses said it was normal, some said that it wasn't but in the end, she was moved to an ICU room and that's when she quickly went downhill.