$110,000 in Debt (college)

[Abbeys_mom]

From where do these ideas come? Society has shifted in the last 10-20 years into "entitlement gear", and young people have ridden the crest of that wave. A friend of mine who's about 25-26 and I were talking about this not long ago, and she says that it's just part of her generation's mentality. Although she knows it's ridiculous, she buys into it on a subconscious level. Things she pointed out to me, which seem odd to my generation:

- Our parents had only 1-2 children. 3 or more children in one family were rare. This gave our parents an "all our eggs in one basket" complex, and they pushed us to be the best. In everything. Also, with only 1-2 children, our parents had more time to devote to us; thus, they "helped us" with our school projects, etc. Our parents were always available to "save us" from making mistakes.

- Everyone from our parents to our teacher to Barney the Dinosaur told us we were special, better than others, unique and different -- and therefore more deserving than others. It didn't occur to us that we couldn't ALL be the best.

- I always win. Everyone I know always wins. Sure, a few people my age do not always win, but they are losers -- me and my friends are winners. We all got trophies when we played soccer. We all made As and Bs through school, and on the rare occasion that we didn't, our parents were quick to blame the teachers, the poor policies, or the fact that we had the flu. When we're told that we're wrong, we bristle about it -- we are not wrong. How could people say that? Other people are wrong.

- We have never waited. We've always had cable TV, microwave ovens, drive-through meals, credit cards, multiple cars in the family, etc. On the rare occasions that we've been made to wait for something, our parents apologized to us and bought us a gift.

- Our parents had money (or at least credit). Most of us have always had more than enough material goods, big Christmases and birthdays, multiple gifts on small holidays like Valentine's Day. We received cars on our 16th birthdays (we might've had to pay a bit towards the car, but it was a token amount). We've never had to save for things; our parents don't, why should we? We've never learned to "make do" or be creative with our resources. Why should we when it's so easy to buy a new whatever-it-might-be?

- We weren't allowed to entertain ourselves. Serial killers lurked outside our doors, so our parents set up play dates supervised by neighbors and friends' parents. We were driven back and forth rather than riding our bikes to and from one another's houses. We also were enrolled in extra-curricular activities at least three afternoons a week: Dance, piano, and gymnastics were staples for the girls. The guys all took martial arts and either guitar or drums. Add in school sports, and we had NO TIME to entertain ourselves.


Again, my friend laughs at her generation, although she fully accepts that she IS part of this mindset. She says she sometimes stops and says, "No, I am wrong" or "I have to wait for this thing."

If you put yourself in this mindset, you can see how a young person could talk herself into borrowing for the school. After all, she's special, different, unique. It's only the lack of money that's preventing her from taking that first step towards greatness. And since she's good at EVERYTHING, it'll be a piece of cake to pay it back!

I can see how a person with this mindset falls into this trap. Doesn't excuse the foolishness of it, but I can see how it happens.

THIS!!!
As a hiring manager, you would be amazed! I was shocked at some of the questions I would get from the younger entitled generation.

There is a name for it - GSE. Gross sense of entitlement.

 

[dvcgirl]

From where do these ideas come? Society has shifted in the last 10-20 years into "entitlement gear", and young people have ridden the crest of that wave. A friend of mine who's about 25-26 and I were talking about this not long ago, and she says that it's just part of her generation's mentality. Although she knows it's ridiculous, she buys into it on a subconscious level. Things she pointed out to me, which seem odd to my generation:

- Our parents had only 1-2 children. 3 or more children in one family were rare. This gave our parents an "all our eggs in one basket" complex, and they pushed us to be the best. In everything. Also, with only 1-2 children, our parents had more time to devote to us; thus, they "helped us" with our school projects, etc. Our parents were always available to "save us" from making mistakes.

- Everyone from our parents to our teacher to Barney the Dinosaur told us we were special, better than others, unique and different -- and therefore more deserving than others. It didn't occur to us that we couldn't ALL be the best.

- I always win. Everyone I know always wins. Sure, a few people my age do not always win, but they are losers -- me and my friends are winners. We all got trophies when we played soccer. We all made As and Bs through school, and on the rare occasion that we didn't, our parents were quick to blame the teachers, the poor policies, or the fact that we had the flu. When we're told that we're wrong, we bristle about it -- we are not wrong. How could people say that? Other people are wrong.

- We have never waited. We've always had cable TV, microwave ovens, drive-through meals, credit cards, multiple cars in the family, etc. On the rare occasions that we've been made to wait for something, our parents apologized to us and bought us a gift.

- Our parents had money (or at least credit). Most of us have always had more than enough material goods, big Christmases and birthdays, multiple gifts on small holidays like Valentine's Day. We received cars on our 16th birthdays (we might've had to pay a bit towards the car, but it was a token amount). We've never had to save for things; our parents don't, why should we? We've never learned to "make do" or be creative with our resources. Why should we when it's so easy to buy a new whatever-it-might-be?

- We weren't allowed to entertain ourselves. Serial killers lurked outside our doors, so our parents set up play dates supervised by neighbors and friends' parents. We were driven back and forth rather than riding our bikes to and from one another's houses. We also were enrolled in extra-curricular activities at least three afternoons a week: Dance, piano, and gymnastics were staples for the girls. The guys all took martial arts and either guitar or drums. Add in school sports, and we had NO TIME to entertain ourselves.


Again, my friend laughs at her generation, although she fully accepts that she IS part of this mindset. She says she sometimes stops and says, "No, I am wrong" or "I have to wait for this thing."

If you put yourself in this mindset, you can see how a young person could talk herself into borrowing for the school. After all, she's special, different, unique. It's only the lack of money that's preventing her from taking that first step towards greatness. And since she's good at EVERYTHING, it'll be a piece of cake to pay it back!

I can see how a person with this mindset falls into this trap. Doesn't excuse the foolishness of it, but I can see how it happens.

Mrs. Pete, you do have a way with words And I swear I'm going to read this to my DH later because he will get such a kick out of it. He's constantly referring to anyone under 25 by saying..."You're all Winners!!" lol!

We're not ancient, not by any means.....43 and 42, but when we played tee ball, only one team won. I was a very good athlete in high school and college. I had a *ton* of trophies. Not every kid did though.

Today, *every* kid has a ton of trophies.

And I like how your friend said that her parents had money/*credit*...because that's what most of them had that my parents did not have. I remember as a very small kid, when my parents got a Sears card. And I remember that they used it only in emergencies....it was a big deal to pull that puppy out of the wallet. Later, when I was high school...they got a master card. But I would imagine that the limit was very small.

The younger generation didn't hear no very often.

So yes, when you put all that together and give them access to unlimited student loan debt....it's an ugly and dangerous combination.

There was an article in the NYT recently about kids coming out of lower tier law schools $200,000+ in student loan debt. It really is something. And that article remained in the NYT top ten "most e-mailed articles" for a long, long time.

Here's the article below.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/09/business/09law.html?_r=1&scp=1&sq=law school debt&st=cse

 

[SPBendersky]

Is the single biggest reason we are send our 1st of three to a Community College for the first two years in a program that is pre selected by the four year colleges she wants to complete her education with. We are going to save an easy $60 K and at the same time verify this is what she wants as well as the diploma will have the name of the school you finish with. I did this 25 years ago and Graduated from a top University.

In the new economy you have to watch out for starting with such an anchor holding you back.

 

[LovableGluttons]

If I am understanding your post, you knew the circumstances you'd be facing by taking on college debt...so worked your way thru instead. The 15 years of working until feeling secure, so that was not including paying for any college loans? Just trying to clarify because it sounds as if you are saying it was not worth it to go to college since it took sacrafices, but knowing the sacrifes you'd face since you had no family/financial help you made the decision to go ahead and go to college(and worked your butt off which is ) You are posting that you agree that you think people should not use $ to invest in their education so that they have the otion for travel, cars, etc in the future? Then why did you opt for the education?

School was definitely worth it!


I did not know people could take loans out for education when I went to college. No one in the financial aid office ever informed me of this! I went every week to give them money towards my tuition, every time I got a paycheck!

I had a grandmother who bemoaned her tiny Social Security check she had to live on, which she received as my grandfather was deceased. She never worked outside the home, stayed home to care for her home, raise her children.

The 15 years I worked like crazy after college was to save money for retirement and to send my children to college so there would be no mortgage, no school loans I'd need to pay for college tuition for my kids, and to build a nest egg for my husband and I to retire on. I did not feel comfortable trusting Social Security, a 401K, nor fate to provide those things for me.


I love my husband dearly, but also did not want to place the security of my financial future in his hands either. It was my responsibility.


My children deposit half of every dollar they receive into a bank account. This started when they were very young. You live off half of what you earn, save the other half. My husband and I live off less than half of what we earn and we are both employed full time even now.

Another grandmother had RA and was disabled very early, wheelchair bound. The lessons I learned at an early age were not to expect someone else to provide for you, start as early as possible to save to pay your own way through life, and plan for retirement. You do not need to borrow money if you can pay for it yourself. Make sure you learn how to pay for it yourself.


Why are student loans an option if you save for college? The author of the article didn't know she would go to college? Why not live at home, work a couple of jobs, and save the money before you go instead?

I did it the hard way by working three jobs and going to school.

Sure it was difficult, so was the following 15 years. I work one job now, do consulting on the side. At any time over the years, something could have taken me out of the work force.

My husband and I saved for our children to go to school for 4 years. If they don't use all of that money and want to attend grad school, they can use whatever is left, then work to pay the rest while attending. They could work while in undergraduate school as well, so less money is needed in graduate school.

I'd love a MacBook Pro, but my cheapie ASUS works just fine. So why would I buy a MacBook and spend that much more money when the ASUS will serve my needs? The author of that article could have finished the last 2 years of college at a school less expensive. With tenacity and a great work ethic, you can do pretty much anything!

 

[eliza61]

We're not ancient, not by any means.....43 and 42, but when we played tee ball, only one team won. I was a very good athlete in high school and college. I had a *ton* of trophies. Not every kid did though.

Today, *every* kid has a ton of trophies.

And I like how your friend said that her parents had money/*credit*...because that's what most of them had that my parents did not have. I remember as a very small kid, when my parents got a Sears card. And I remember that they used it only in emergencies....it was a big deal to pull that puppy out of the wallet. Later, when I was high school...they got a master card. But I would imagine that the limit was very small.

The younger generation didn't hear no very often.
.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/09/business/09law.html?_r=1&scp=1&sq=law school debt&st=cse

Would you believe my sons MIDDLE school wanted to outlaw "tag" evidently our little ones are being severly traumatized by the words...

"Tag, you're out"

 

[LovableGluttons]

Would you believe my sons MIDDLE school wanted to outlaw "tag" evidently our little ones are being severly traumatized by the words...

"Tag, you're out"

I must be traumatized too!


I love playing Tag!

 

[dvcgirl]

Would you believe my sons MIDDLE school wanted to outlaw "tag" evidently our little ones are being severly traumatized by the words...

"Tag, you're out"

Uuuuuuugggghhhh.

I think they "outlawed" dodge ball ages ago. We used to play dodge ball while sitting on desks. And you had to be paying attention or you'd get hit on the face with that red ball....lol! If you got hit with it in the face...it would leave a mark for hours. I know, I know, it sounds *barbaric* by today's standards, but it was fun. Yes, that definitely favored the athletic kids, but we had lots of competitive academic games as well....

And listen, my sisters, their spouses and the aunt and uncle (me and DH) discuss the "kids" in our family a lot. We're all successful and we are all cognizant of the fact that we *all* need to be careful not to give these kids too much. We're all successful and we have the means to spoil these kids.

As it stands, they've already experienced vacations by age 3,4 and 5 that I didn't experience until I was in my late 20s. And so we all try to tie those experiences with the success that comes with lots and lots of hard work. They're too young now to "get that", but we're already having age-approriate conversations with them about these kinds of things.

 

[bettymae1121]

From where do these ideas come? Society has shifted in the last 10-20 years into "entitlement gear", and young people have ridden the crest of that wave. A friend of mine who's about 25-26 and I were talking about this not long ago, and she says that it's just part of her generation's mentality. Although she knows it's ridiculous, she buys into it on a subconscious level. Things she pointed out to me, which seem odd to my generation:

- Our parents had only 1-2 children. 3 or more children in one family were rare. This gave our parents an "all our eggs in one basket" complex, and they pushed us to be the best. In everything. Also, with only 1-2 children, our parents had more time to devote to us; thus, they "helped us" with our school projects, etc. Our parents were always available to "save us" from making mistakes.

- Everyone from our parents to our teacher to Barney the Dinosaur told us we were special, better than others, unique and different -- and therefore more deserving than others. It didn't occur to us that we couldn't ALL be the best.

- I always win. Everyone I know always wins. Sure, a few people my age do not always win, but they are losers -- me and my friends are winners. We all got trophies when we played soccer. We all made As and Bs through school, and on the rare occasion that we didn't, our parents were quick to blame the teachers, the poor policies, or the fact that we had the flu. When we're told that we're wrong, we bristle about it -- we are not wrong. How could people say that? Other people are wrong.

- We have never waited. We've always had cable TV, microwave ovens, drive-through meals, credit cards, multiple cars in the family, etc. On the rare occasions that we've been made to wait for something, our parents apologized to us and bought us a gift.

- Our parents had money (or at least credit). Most of us have always had more than enough material goods, big Christmases and birthdays, multiple gifts on small holidays like Valentine's Day. We received cars on our 16th birthdays (we might've had to pay a bit towards the car, but it was a token amount). We've never had to save for things; our parents don't, why should we? We've never learned to "make do" or be creative with our resources. Why should we when it's so easy to buy a new whatever-it-might-be?

- We weren't allowed to entertain ourselves. Serial killers lurked outside our doors, so our parents set up play dates supervised by neighbors and friends' parents. We were driven back and forth rather than riding our bikes to and from one another's houses. We also were enrolled in extra-curricular activities at least three afternoons a week: Dance, piano, and gymnastics were staples for the girls. The guys all took martial arts and either guitar or drums. Add in school sports, and we had NO TIME to entertain ourselves.


Again, my friend laughs at her generation, although she fully accepts that she IS part of this mindset. She says she sometimes stops and says, "No, I am wrong" or "I have to wait for this thing."

If you put yourself in this mindset, you can see how a young person could talk herself into borrowing for the school. After all, she's special, different, unique. It's only the lack of money that's preventing her from taking that first step towards greatness. And since she's good at EVERYTHING, it'll be a piece of cake to pay it back!

I can see how a person with this mindset falls into this trap. Doesn't excuse the foolishness of it, but I can see how it happens.

Great post! I think another issue is that the current generation all were had by "older" parents, adults in their 30's and even early 40's. By that age, the parents were more financialy secure so the kids never saw the strugle most people in their 20's go through to establish themselves.

That was what my childhood was like. I was the youngest of three kids, my dad was in his late 30's, mom in her early 30's when I was born. My older brothers talk about remembering having the thermostat set at 60 in winter (while bundled up in sweaters) and drinking powdered milk because money was so tight. I missed that "hardship" stage, I remember having not only real milk to drink, but ice cream, cookies, and chips in the house, not to mention central a/c. Now my parents didn't spoil us once they got to the point where they could if they wanted to, they instilled in me the same work ethic that they instilled in my brothers. But if you add never seeing your parents have to struggle for anything on top of being a bit spoiled, you come out with some very skewed preceptions of the world.

At almost 35 and 39, DH and I have almost $100k saved for retirement so far, no car debt, and our CC debt scheduled to be paid off by June 2012. Heck most likely we won't even have to save for college, the trust from my father will likely be enough to cover most of their education needs. We still haven't had kids yet (not for lack of trying...) so our own kids (if we have them) won't see that struggle either. We'll have to be very careful to make sure they aren't raised thinking everything comes easy, because short of some unforseeable disaster, they won't witness us having to "make do".

 

[crisi]

Uuuuuuugggghhhh.

I think they "outlawed" dodge ball ages ago. We used to play dodge ball while sitting on desks. And you had to be paying attention or you'd get hit on the face with that red ball....lol! If you got hit with it in the face...it would leave a mark for hours. I know, I know, it sounds *barbaric* by today's standards, but it was fun. Yes, that definitely favored the athletic kids, but we had lots of competitive academic games as well....

And listen, my sisters, their spouses and the aunt and uncle (me and DH) discuss the "kids" in our family a lot. We're all successful and we are all cognizant of the fact that we *all* need to be careful not to give these kids too much. We're all successful and we have the means to spoil these kids.

As it stands, they've already experienced vacations by age 3,4 and 5 that I didn't experience until I was in my late 20s. And so we all try to tie those experiences with the success that comes with lots and lots of hard work. They're too young now to "get that", but we're already having age-approriate conversations with them about these kinds of things.

It depends.

My kids play dodgeball in school. My son's team finished fourth in the baseball tournament a few years ago - no trophy for fourth - the organization didn't even fund a participation medal. My daughter is in gymnastics - there is no "auto promotion" in competitive gymnastics (and she's lousy at it - not good enough to be competitive, but she is happy to be doing what she can do). Their school is a failing school - so the pressure is on them to succeed, not merely "try their best" the kids in that school HAVE to show significant improvement year after year. Most of the kids in my neighborhood ride their bikes around the neighborhood unsupervised starting sometime in elementary school.

Of course, we purposely have them in a school with a very diverse socio- economic environment. We choose to live in an area where people don't have time to raise "snowflakes" and have no desire to. Many of my kid's friend's parents HAVE to say no. They do struggle and work.

 

[MrsPete]

However, if their parents really are there to save them from mistakes and buy them everything they want, they also pay for their college.

Yeah, I agree that would be consistant thinking . . . but here's the rub: A middle class family who gives in to the child's every whim isn't going to be able to save the money for college. The child won't realize that all those "treats" along the way WERE the college money, but the parents SHOULD know it.

your summary is spot-on...soon we will be reading why there aren't *snowflake* scholarships.

I already hear so many students complain: I have a good A-B average! Why am I not getting a scholarship? Well, because only the best of the best get scholarships. LOTS of people have A-B averages. I think college is the first time in their live that some students really hear "no" to something significant.

Mrs. Pete, you do have a way with words And I swear I'm going to read this to my DH later because he will get such a kick out of it. He's constantly referring to anyone under 25 by saying..."You're all Winners!!" lol!

We're not ancient, not by any means.....43 and 42, but when we played tee ball, only one team won. I was a very good athlete in high school and college. I had a *ton* of trophies. Not every kid did though.

Thanks. I don't claim credit for the content though. I'm repeating the sentiments of one of my younger co-workers, with whom I had a long conversation about how her generation thinks differently from mine.

By the way, I'm 44 -- your generation.

Great post! I think another issue is that the current generation all were had by "older" parents, adults in their 30's and even early 40's. By that age, the parents were more financialy secure so the kids never saw the strugle most people in their 20's go through to establish themselves.

I agree that's part of it too. My parents were young when I was born, and they didn't have the money (nor was credit available) to splurge on this or that for me.

A couple other things my friend said in her explaination:

- When she's listening to someone tell a story, she's always waiting patiently 'til they're done so she can tell HER own story, which involves her.

- Shoot, I had another one, but I forgot it.

 

[crisi]

Yeah, I agree that would be consistant thinking . . . but here's the rub: A middle class family who gives in to the child's every whim isn't going to be able to save the money for college. The child won't realize that all those "treats" along the way WERE the college money, but the parents SHOULD know it

Yep, therefore, I don't think its necessarily fair to blame the kids for lack of look ahead depth - their parents didn't have it either.

And the kids aren't the only ones who believe an A-B average and being an all-conference athlete will get them scholarships. Or that a $60k a year income is low enough that someone else should pay for college.

And in many cases, parents are not willing to make sacrifices to fund a kids education. We've heard it here many times from people who go to Disney every year - their kids will take out loans for college. When you already have the expectation you'll take out a $20k a year loan for a state school (room and board + tuition) it doesn't seem that unreasonable to take out $40k for a small, charming private school.

 

[eliza61]

Yep, therefore, I don't think its necessarily fair to blame the kids for lack of look ahead depth - their parents didn't have it either.

And the kids aren't the only ones who believe an A-B average and being an all-conference athlete will get them scholarships. Or that a $60k a year income is low enough that someone else should pay for college.

And in many cases, parents are not willing to make sacrifices to fund a kids education. We've heard it here many times from people who go to Disney every year - their kids will take out loans for college. When you already have the expectation you'll take out a $20k a year loan for a state school (room and board + tuition) it doesn't seem that unreasonable to take out $40k for a small, charming private school.

very, very true. I guess the problem I had with the article is that the author points out a number of times that she could not afford American U and her parents told her the trap she was setting for herself. So in this case I don't think she can say she suffered from "lack of looking ahead" she had that wisdom, she simply chose to ignore it.

 

[Ava]

From where do these ideas come? Society has shifted in the last 10-20 years into "entitlement gear", and young people have ridden the crest of that wave. A friend of mine who's about 25-26 and I were talking about this not long ago, and she says that it's just part of her generation's mentality. Although she knows it's ridiculous, she buys into it on a subconscious level. Things she pointed out to me, which seem odd to my generation:

- Our parents had only 1-2 children. 3 or more children in one family were rare. This gave our parents an "all our eggs in one basket" complex, and they pushed us to be the best. In everything. Also, with only 1-2 children, our parents had more time to devote to us; thus, they "helped us" with our school projects, etc. Our parents were always available to "save us" from making mistakes.

- Everyone from our parents to our teacher to Barney the Dinosaur told us we were special, better than others, unique and different -- and therefore more deserving than others. It didn't occur to us that we couldn't ALL be the best.

- I always win. Everyone I know always wins. Sure, a few people my age do not always win, but they are losers -- me and my friends are winners. We all got trophies when we played soccer. We all made As and Bs through school, and on the rare occasion that we didn't, our parents were quick to blame the teachers, the poor policies, or the fact that we had the flu. When we're told that we're wrong, we bristle about it -- we are not wrong. How could people say that? Other people are wrong.

- We have never waited. We've always had cable TV, microwave ovens, drive-through meals, credit cards, multiple cars in the family, etc. On the rare occasions that we've been made to wait for something, our parents apologized to us and bought us a gift.

- Our parents had money (or at least credit). Most of us have always had more than enough material goods, big Christmases and birthdays, multiple gifts on small holidays like Valentine's Day. We received cars on our 16th birthdays (we might've had to pay a bit towards the car, but it was a token amount). We've never had to save for things; our parents don't, why should we? We've never learned to "make do" or be creative with our resources. Why should we when it's so easy to buy a new whatever-it-might-be?

- We weren't allowed to entertain ourselves. Serial killers lurked outside our doors, so our parents set up play dates supervised by neighbors and friends' parents. We were driven back and forth rather than riding our bikes to and from one another's houses. We also were enrolled in extra-curricular activities at least three afternoons a week: Dance, piano, and gymnastics were staples for the girls. The guys all took martial arts and either guitar or drums. Add in school sports, and we had NO TIME to entertain ourselves.

Again, my friend laughs at her generation, although she fully accepts that she IS part of this mindset. She says she sometimes stops and says, "No, I am wrong" or "I have to wait for this thing."

If you put yourself in this mindset, you can see how a young person could talk herself into borrowing for the school. After all, she's special, different, unique. It's only the lack of money that's preventing her from taking that first step towards greatness. And since she's good at EVERYTHING, it'll be a piece of cake to pay it back!

I can see how a person with this mindset falls into this trap. Doesn't excuse the foolishness of it, but I can see how it happens.

I'm 30 and most of your friend's description of her generation applies to me as well. I only have 1 sibling, and my parents gave us a very good middle-class childhood (probably utilizing a lot of credit). We got lots of gifts for Christmases/birthdays, went to DisneyWorld a few times, went to the beach & amusement parks every summer, etc etc. I also definitely had the "everyone is special" & "you can be anything you want to be" messages drilled into me from a young age. I did very well in school, which gave me the false assumption that everything in life would come easily to me, or things would just work themselves out.

As far as her point about never losing, I think I just subconsciously avoided activities that I was not good at. Instead of trying (and possibly failing) I'd just quit & move on to the next thing when something got too difficult. My parents didn't push me to stick with anything, because in their well-intentioned view they didn't want to force me to do anything that I didn't enjoy. I took gymnastics until I was expected to do a cartwheel off the balance beam, I took ice skating until I was expected to start doing jumps... you see my pattern here. I still don't like making mistakes & try to avoid situations where I'm unsure of myself, but I'm trying to get better about that (and not project my own issues onto my DD).

As far as student loan debt, I have some - although nowhere near $100K. I think total I had about $20K in loans when I graduated in 2003, and it's about halfway paid off. In hindsight, I should have had much less than I ended up with. I went to a private college for my first 3 semesters, but my parents took out most of the loans needed for that. Then I dropped out - my fear of failure & a lot of other issues that I don't even fully know WHY I did it. My parents let me leave school & come home, where I spent a year working random jobs & trying to figure out what to do with my life. By the time I went back to school at a state university, I had a pretty well-paying job that I was able to do part-time while I went to school. However, I got approved for enough in student loans to cover my whole tuition. So, instead of saving my money from my job & paying for school as I went along, I took out the full tuition in student loans every semester. I knew I'd have to pay them back after I graduated, but at 20 I didn't really think about how that might affect my finances down the road. At the time I wanted to have money to travel during breaks & buy things, and figured after I graduated I'd get a job & then be able to pay back the loans no problem. If I could go back in time I would sit my dumb 20-year-old self down & tell her not to take out those loans. In-state tuition at this university was (IIRC) only around $2,000/semester. I made at least $10,000/year from my part-time job each year I was going to this school. I lived at home so my only expenses beyond "entertainment" were insurance/gas for my car, my cell phone, and clothes. You do the math. I could've paid for most, if not all, of my tuition & books without loans. Now it's 8 years later and I still have $10K left in loans to pay off. No way will I let my DD make the same mistake when it's time for her to go to college.

ETA: Just had another thought. My generation is the first generation where, if you come from a middle-class or above family, it's expected that you'll go to college. My parents both went to community college for a bit, but never finished. When they reached college age in the late 1960s, it wasn't expected that everyone would go to college. When I graduated from high school in 1998, every kid I knew was headed to college. If you weren't, you were considered "less than." Harsh, but college was the expectation & I think my generation's parents would do anything (including making not-so-smart financial choices) to make sure their child got the chance to attend college.

 

[crisi]

very, very true. I guess the problem I had with the article is that the author points out a number of times that she could not afford American U and her parents told her the trap she was setting for herself. So in this case I don't think she can say she suffered from "lack of looking ahead" she had that wisdom, she simply chose to ignore it.

Or maybe not. In a different economy she made a great choice - and when she made her choice, we were in a different economy. I spoke upthread about my friend with her Columbia/Harvard public policy degrees which has worked out very good for her. This is one of those fields where school can make a huge difference and going to school in DC is a big jumpstart.

She didn't realize - as most 18-20 year olds won't - that economies are variable and that having that student loan debt really does mean giving up several years worth of making a living wage to pay down debt while moving up the income ladder. Her timing was poor, but that isn't necessarily her fault.

 

[MrsPete]

Yep, therefore, I don't think its necessarily fair to blame the kids for lack of look ahead depth - their parents didn't have it either.

And the kids aren't the only ones who believe an A-B average and being an all-conference athlete will get them scholarships. Or that a $60k a year income is low enough that someone else should pay for college.

And in many cases, parents are not willing to make sacrifices to fund a kids education. We've heard it here many times from people who go to Disney every year - their kids will take out loans for college. When you already have the expectation you'll take out a $20k a year loan for a state school (room and board + tuition) it doesn't seem that unreasonable to take out $40k for a small, charming private school.

I think the parents KNOW that it's a mistake to go $110,000 into debt for an education, but 1) they don't want to dash their darling's dreams, 2) they don't stop to contemplate the total amount -- $20,000 for this semester . . . oh, that's just the cost of a car -- no big deal.

But the parents should know that their children aren't going to walk out of college and into a high paying job.

I do agree that so many students convince themselves that they ARE going to get a big scholarship because of ________ (fill in the blank with whatever makes them special).

And I do agree that most parents could save SOMETHING for their kids' educations, if they were willing to make the sacrafice. I agree that many people figure, "If we're gonna have to borrow, why not just borrow big?" A philosophy that I can't understand.

very, very true. I guess the problem I had with the article is that the author points out a number of times that she could not afford American U and her parents told her the trap she was setting for herself. So in this case I don't think she can say she suffered from "lack of looking ahead" she had that wisdom, she simply chose to ignore it.

Which is consistant with my friend's description of her generation's thought processes. Knowing something, yet failing to believe it applies to them.

I did very well in school, which gave me the false assumption that everything in life would come easily to me, or things would just work themselves out.

ETA: Just had another thought. My generation is the first generation where, if you come from a middle-class or above family, it's expected that you'll go to college.

I agree with you on both of these counts.

In high school, if you try AT ALL, everything does work out for you. Maybe you won't make honor roll or win awards, but if you attend and do most of your work, you're going to PASS. Maybe just by the skin of your teeth, but you'll make it through. In high school, either your parents or your teachers will work things out for you. It definitely gives students the "false assumption" that things work themselves out in the end because the world doesn't work that way.

Your point about more students attending college is valid, but I think my own perspective on that may be skewed: I came from a very, very rural area, where college was neither necessary or promoted heavily. Most of my classmates lived on family farms and expected to follow their fathers' footsteps. Out of 163 who graduated high school with me, I think only a dozen or so of us went on to college. I think we were "behind the times" in that it was still possible to make a good living with only a high school diploma. We were also the county with the highest savings rate /compared to income. So we were a county of old-fashioned tightwads (see, I come by it naturally).

Today that area is changing fast, and my old classmates' children cannot expect to do what their parents did. Of course, most of them still own the land, which is becoming more valuable each and every day . . . but that won't put food on the table.

Today I live (and teach) in a more urban area, and it's true that MOST of my students head out to college -- many of them to community college -- but they don't all STAY in college. Many of those who in previous generations would never have tried college just don't make it. I do think that the ability to borrow and the inclination to take the path of least resistance (getting into community college may be easier than getting a job) plays into the larger numbers. It'll be interesting to see how many people in this current high school generation end up with degrees. I'd bet it'd be MORE than previous generations, but still not anywhere near "everyone".

 

[Judique]

Just read thru this thread and I agree...my DD will have large loans, however she knew when making her college choice that she would be pre-spending $ that others will spend in their life shoices later. She will not be having a large wedding (or any wedding for that matter) be driving a used car, have up to 3 roommates,not have kids, (a personal choice, not a debt based one) not own a house/condo for at least 10 years...but that is fine with her, her career will involve the ability to relocate globally, so owning would almost hurt her in a way. She has friends drooling over $40 cars, McMansions, vacations...all things that are not on her personal radar. She knew the education she wanted and felt taking on the debt and while young was better than attempting her school at the age of 35(assuming she sould attend loan free then), and the costs keep going up. Where she attends is $10,000 more per year than the least expensive option of her attending for her field, so to her $40,000 is that fancy car etc that others are coveting. What riches she will have is a field that brings her incredible inner joy, accomplishment and hopefully joy to others. She is spending far less on her own education than what she would have to set aside for a child of her own which as I said, she has no desire to have and at almost 21 she has no regrets, she has a realistic view and plan of what it will take to handle her situation. Heck, If we didn't have kids college, braces, sports, aging parents to support.. you name it, $110,000 would have been paid off in under 10 years. How many adults have spent 6 figures on redecorating their homes, a new car every 4 years, the latest cell phone/computer... eating out and don't have a lot to show for it? How many kids were ALREADY in school and their parents or their own savings tanked in 2008? There are a lot of variables out there, I think this girl is taking control. Heck, how many of these kids sign on for mortgages after they graduate that are just as high...when they know they are given enough rope to hang themselves with? At least her debt is on education, not materialistic things. I know many a family that has sent their DD off to school to make sure they meet Mr. Right..nice...drop $80,000 or more to marry off your daughter? At least this young lady is sharing her story to be informative and point out mistakes she made in hopes of giving others the tools to make their own decisions with.

good luck to her. If Mr. Right comes along and spoils all this careful planning, you may indeed get some grandchildren;0. After all, she's not quite 21 yet.

 

[mommy2allyandaveri]

We have been looking at this very thing for years. DH and I have told our kids we will provide 100% of college if they live at home and go to the local 4 year college.....whatever is over that amount (should they choose a different option), they will have to cover the rest and we strongly encourage them to not go into debt to do it.

I realize this is not how many would approach college (want their kids to go away to school for the experience, want a better name school, etc...), but we feel strongly that they will have the rest of their lives to be on their own and will do it with two feet more firmly on the ground if they aren't in debt.

The above was easier when we lived in LA, as there were so many great schools within driving distance, but it can still happen here.

Dawn

I 100% agree. We have been saving for college since I became pregnant. My parents were able to pay for my state college and I am SO thankful. I don't want to sadle my kids with tons of student loans. I'm not sure we will be able to pay for every penny, but we will try our hardest.

 

[bunny]

I 100% agree. We have been saving for college since I became pregnant. My parents were able to pay for my state college and I am SO thankful. I don't want to sadle my kids with tons of student loans. I'm not sure we will be able to pay for every penny, but we will try our hardest.

My parents paid for my education at a state university also and I plan on doing the same for my kids. To do that, though, has required me to always work. I would have liked to be a SAHM but unfortunately my husband is only an average earner even though he has a degree from a private college. I am hoping some day my sons don't resent me for sending them to daycare when they were babies, but they are thankful I am putting them through college with no loans.

I think this is some of the problems kids have today. Their moms quit their careers to stay home with them. They focused only on them and would have died before allowing someone else to "raise" their children. They ran them to every activity they could involve them in and were too busy volunteering at school and athletic events to hold down jobs. Now it is time for these kids to go to college and they will need to borrow all the money.

I hear some of the moms at my son's middle school say they are way too busy every day to have outside jobs. I just want to ask them what they do with all the hours their teens are in school.

 

[jodifla]

I look at this story, and to me, it's on the parents, and to a lesser extent, the girl.

The parents failed to educate this girl on reality. They co-signed for loans when they shouldn't have, and they didn't sit down with a budget and an spread sheet to figure out what that kind of debt load would be like long-term and what her prospects were like.

If you have a "dream" college, like this girl has, then you just need to do basic reporting, all the way through to the end of the story: you need to figure out ALL the costs including living and books, tuition, etc., and then find out what kinds of jobs graduates are getting and what they pay.

And then maybe you need to have a few more "dream" colleges on your list that can get you to the same place, but with fewer expenses.

Picking the RIGHT college for your career can be quite important. But GEOGRAPHY is also key. In Florida, for example, a degree from UF is golden....it'soften as good as an Ivy League degree in the state, because there are so many UF graduates doing the hiring, and they like to hire from their alma mater. It's all about the networking.

 

[Ava]

But the parents should know that their children aren't going to walk out of college and into a high paying job.

This seems like it should be obvious, but if the parents themselves didn't go to college and only have second-hand information about the types of jobs one can get with a Bachelor's degree, it might not be so obvious. For parents who's child is the first in their family to go to college, that degree can seem like the ticket to a great high-paying job.

Your point about more students attending college is valid, but I think my own perspective on that may be skewed: I came from a very, very rural area, where college was neither necessary or promoted heavily. Most of my classmates lived on family farms and expected to follow their fathers' footsteps. Out of 163 who graduated high school with me, I think only a dozen or so of us went on to college. I think we were "behind the times" in that it was still possible to make a good living with only a high school diploma. We were also the county with the highest savings rate /compared to income. So we were a county of old-fashioned tightwads (see, I come by it naturally).

Today that area is changing fast, and my old classmates' children cannot expect to do what their parents did. Of course, most of them still own the land, which is becoming more valuable each and every day . . . but that won't put food on the table.

Today I live (and teach) in a more urban area, and it's true that MOST of my students head out to college -- many of them to community college -- but they don't all STAY in college. Many of those who in previous generations would never have tried college just don't make it. I do think that the ability to borrow and the inclination to take the path of least resistance (getting into community college may be easier than getting a job) plays into the larger numbers. It'll be interesting to see how many people in this current high school generation end up with degrees. I'd bet it'd be MORE than previous generations, but still not anywhere near "everyone".

I see your point about the percentage of kids who start college but don't finish. I guess my view is skewed because I went to a private prep school for high school. It was a very small performing arts school, and the assumption (by us, our parents, and the school) was that we'd all go to - and finish - a 4-year college. In my little world in high school, there was no other option. My sister, on the other hand, went to public high school; she was never very fond of school, made average grades, etc. She wasn't interested in going to a 4-year college right out of high school, so my parents gave her a choice. She could go to community college & continue to live at home, or she could get a full-time job and work towards moving out of their house. She chose to go to CC & eventually transferred to the same 4-year state school I graduated from. I think college for us was important to my parents because they never finished; they wanted us to do "better" than they did.

I will also fully admit that I expect my children will get at least their Bachelor's degree. Especially since it is becoming more & more like the new high school diploma and many companies won't even consider someone without a Bachelor's degree.