$10- too cheap for resort rooms!!

[Doctor P]

As I have reiterated many times in the past, the issue of the appropriate rental rate is market determined and I agree with Dean that the higher the rate the better it is for me as a DVC owner. My point is that justifying the $10 rate on the basis of COST just doesn't cut it. With due respect to Dean, for whom I have the utmost respect and appreciation, if this is a prepaid vacation plan then one appropriately discounts over the life of the contract. On the other hand, if this is an investment (which DVC has never claimed to be) then that mindset may be appropriate.

 

[Regina]

Originally posted by Dean
Regina, not be designed to rent points and being acceptable are 2 different things. As the POS clearly states, members can rent their points. Those that try to quote the "commercial use" are definitely reading too much into this section. It is only designed to protect Disney, not to prevent renting. Not that they could legally prevent one from renting what they own anyway. Still, it's an age old timeshare ploy and I'm sorry to see DVC has gone that route.

I've been to this same presentation on another cruise, and renting wasn't mentioned. I had the same feelings as you, disappointment, but not because of the commercial aspect. Let's face it, renting isn't easy. If I was a prospective member, I'd probably assume that DVC has a system whereby I can rent the points. After all, it's one of the "pluses" that they're emphasizing.

I wouldn't be very happy if this was an important reason for my joining, and then finding out that DVC does absolutely nothing to assist members who are interested in renting.

Mind you, I'm not saying that DVC should assist renters, what I'm saying is that they should not be making this a selling point.

 

[ripleysmom]

"I don't know why anyone should care why someone rents their points. People here seem offended that some rent their points rather than vacation. I think it is their choice.The more valuable points are to the outside world the more valuable to us as investments. I also don't know why some people take offense at seeing DVC as an investment. Okay it is a great way to prepay vacations at wonderful resorts but we should want to keep the value up. Someday we may wish to sell or rent and I for one think I should get the most money I can."

icy-dog, people here are NOT offended by renting points instead of vacationing. It happens occasionally and many realize this.

They are, however, offended by renting points as a continuous business venture. They are especially offended when reservations are made that take studios out of the system for Sunday-Thursday so that DVC owners can auction them on ebay to the highest bidder, peak times of the year being particularly troublesome.

Some posters on this board view owning a DVC membership for commerical purposes as rude and inconsiderate to other DVC members. I happen to agree with them.

 

[LIFERBABE]

They are, however, offended by renting points as a continuous business venture. They are especially offended when reservations are made that take studios out of the system for Sunday-Thursday so that DVC owners can auction them on ebay to the highest bidder, peak times of the year being particularly troublesome.

Ripleysmom,
I too am concerned about the "EBAY Effect" on my ability to book a reservation. I checked EBAY last night and saw 2 such DVC listings and one was for Sun-Thur. Thankfully there wasn't more but as you stated peak season is over.

One of my concerns of buying is will my dates be available. I don't mind paying the money if I get what I pay for.

Renting is and should be an option for all owners, as there will be times you cannot go and you will lose those points. If Renting or expiration were my only choices, I'd rent.

As far as the cost to rent, that should be up to the owner. The buyer will let you know what is acceptable.

 

[ncligs]

Originally posted by ripleysmom
They are, however, offended by renting points as a continuous business venture. They are especially offended when reservations are made that take studios out of the system for Sunday-Thursday so that DVC owners can auction them on ebay to the highest bidder, peak times of the year being particularly troublesome.

Some posters on this board view owning a DVC membership for commerical purposes as rude and inconsiderate to other DVC members. I happen to agree with them.

Well said RM....and I agree with you 100%. A certain poster on this board has 2000 pts and and rents out most of them

. Is that fair to other DVC members who actually would like to reserve those peak weeks or times.

I have no problem with an occasional rental because something came up,pts about to expire,pay for a cruise,etc. But to purposely do it as a business,is not what DVC had in mind for families.

 

[vernon]

There is an inherent risk in the renter "buying" points from a DVC owner. There are ways to protect yourself, but still there is a potential for problems. Therefore any price for point rentals has to show a significant price saving on what it would cost from Disney. IMHO anything more than 65-70% of the cost of the cheapest rate, FOR THE SAME ROOM/RESORT, available from Disney is not going to get paid.
There is a secondary factor as well and that is the price of the cheapest room available on site direct from Disney. IMHO people will not take the chance to rent DVC points, even though the rooms/resorts are much nicer, for a higher rate than they can stay on site for.
As the All Star resort is available from $80-90 per night and OKW is available from 8 points (the other resorts from 11) per night it's going to keep the price around $10 per point, maybe a touch less to take into account members that just want to get enough to cover their dues and maybe a little extra.

While those new people joining DVC may calculate their cost to be close to $10 per point (although, somewhat irrelevently, I'd disagree) the majority of members bought in at a lower rate and many have no outstanding loans on their ownership. Their costings are much lower and the "market" should reflect what the "real cost" is to the average across the membership. For that reason I would think $5-7 is probably a realistic cost, renting for $10 makes a reasonable little bit extra on top of cost.

Most members are no "in this" to turn a profit, if they have an excess of points that needs to be used, IMHO most would rather the "problem" is resolved quickly and it isn't an on going time consuming issue. As they say "time is money" and if I spend 40-50 hours working to make an extra $2 per point on 75 points ( $150 extra made/50 hours checking to maximise my return works out at $3 per hour, some people may think they have enough time to justify that rate of return, others who have less time wouldn't consider that a worthwhile rate of return for their effort.

 

[Dean]

Originally posted by JimC
Dean, The primary reason for a written contract is to ensure that there is a correct understanding between the parties. The writing usually forces one to deal with the specifics, each parties responsibilities and the like. The whole purpose of written agreements is to avoid mis-communication or legal proceedings.

We reduce understandings to writing because experience teaches us that memories fade over time.

I agree it's the specifics that are important. That's why I like email and why I was very specific the few times I've rented.

 

[Dean]

Originally posted by Maistre Gracey
I don't have my calculator handy, but I have worked the numbers in the past. If you were to finance for 10 years, you are still paying less than double for your points. If memory serves me correct, it added about $1 per point, per year to the cost of a point. It brought the total cost to about $7/pt, per year.

It depends on whether you add the cost in for the entire 40 years or just the 10 years of the loan. I would be more inclined to count it for the 10 years and it adds almost $50 pp to the total cost. If you do it over the full term of DVC you should also do lost income on the last 30 years. As I've said many times there is more to this than a financial issue but it's about the only way one can talk about the value of DVC objectively.

 

[Maistre Gracey]

Originally posted by Dean
It depends on whether you add the cost in for the entire 40 years or just the 10 years of the loan. I would be more inclined to count it for the 10 years and it adds almost $50 pp to the total cost. If you do it over the full term of DVC you should also do lost income on the last 30 years. As I've said many times there is more to this than a financial issue but it's about the only way one can talk about the value of DVC objectively.

Since I plan on using my DVC points until 2042, I feel justified in spreading the cost over 40 years.

I don't see any lost interest income after 10 years, as the kitty you would start with would be drained from staying in on-site, deluxe hotels.

-Just my opinion...

 

[Dean]

Originally posted by ripleysmom
icy-dog, people here are NOT offended by renting points instead of vacationing. It happens occasionally and many realize this.

They are, however, offended by renting points as a continuous business venture. They are especially offended when reservations are made that take studios out of the system for Sunday-Thursday so that DVC owners can auction them on ebay to the highest bidder, peak times of the year being particularly troublesome.

Some posters on this board view owning a DVC membership for commerical purposes as rude and inconsiderate to other DVC members. I happen to agree with them.

Contrary to your post, I think many people are offended by any anyone renting. To some, renting for more than the maint fees and direct cost and to anyone other than your family and immediate friends is a commercial venture. This is a ludicrous point of view but it is indeed one that is shared by some.

As for renting affecting availability, I have 3 thoughts. One is that it is irrelevent as what one owns they can rent both legally and under the DVC rules. The second is that everyone has the same chance as everyone else. If they own there they have the 11 month window. If they don't they have no say in that resort. The only exception would be a reservaiton that was not open to everyone to include lottery and special season lists. The last, and not particularly applicable one, is that the numbers are so small as to make no difference anyway.

 

[Maistre Gracey]

I also wanted to add--
After your 'break even' year, does anyone factor in lost interest income that they may incur if they did not buy DVC?
In other words, once DVC pays for itself, wouldn't a non-member be losing interest on the additional money they are spending for hotels?

 

[Dean]

Originally posted by Maistre Gracey
I also wanted to add--
After your 'break even' year, does anyone factor in lost interest income that they may incur if they did not buy DVC?
In other words, once DVC pays for itself, wouldn't a non-member be losing interest on the additional money they are spending for hotels?

You are making assumptiosn that one will continue to go every year. I think this is a very large assumption and not particularly accurate for those not tied to DVC or a similiar timeshare. After only less than 10 years of ownership, we find ourselves not going every year and we live only 4 hours away.

 

[lat]

Originally posted by Dean
Contrary to your post, I think many people are offended by any anyone renting. To some, renting for more than the maint fees and direct cost and to anyone other than your family and immediate friends is a commercial venture. This is a ludicrous point of view but it is indeed one that is shared by some.

As for renting affecting availability, I have 3 thoughts. One is that it is irrelevent as what one owns they can rent both legally and under the DVC rules. The second is that everyone has the same chance as everyone else. If they own there they have the 11 month window. If they don't they have no say in that resort. The only exception would be a reservaiton that was not open to everyone to include lottery and special season lists. The last, and not particularly applicable one, is that the numbers are so small as to make no difference anyway.

Dean, bravo!!!!!!!

 

[Maistre Gracey]

I really don't care if a member rents their points now and then because they are in a pinch. I may even have to do that at somepoint.
I do have a problem with someone taking my room because they called at 9:00 and hoarded rooms. I also call, get a busy signal, but get through at 9:05 and don't get my room.
Even better, I don't think rooms should be hoarded for rent before I have a 7 month window shot at them.
A slightly different take on this is when people were buying up the Cindy's Character Breakfasts, then selling the RESERVATION on e-bay.

I guess I could always find a room on e-bay...

 

[Dean]

Originally posted by Maistre Gracey
I really don't care if a member rents their points now and then because they are in a pinch. I may even have to do that at somepoint.
I do have a problem with someone taking my room because they called at 9:00 and hoarded rooms. I also call, get a busy signal, but get through at 9:05 and don't get my room.
Even better, I don't think rooms should be hoarded for rent before I have a 7 month window shot at them.
A slightly different take on this is when people were buying up the Cindy's Character Breakfasts, then selling the RESERVATION on e-bay.

I guess I could always find a room on e-bay...

The problem is that this is the system you bought into. Frankly, I doubt few people that rent are on the phone day by day at 11 months out at 9 am but I suspect it has happened. I guess what I don't understand is why members feel that other members should hold back until they get what they want.

 

[Maistre Gracey]

Originally posted by Dean
The problem is that this is the system you bought into.

Well, that depends on how you look at it. Actually, it is the center point of this whole debate.
Is hoarding rooms to rent on e-bay a commercial venture?
If the answer is 'yes', than it is not the system we bought into. We bought into a system that the POS states there will be no commercial use of DVC.

 

[Dean]

Originally posted by Maistre Gracey
Well, that depends on how you look at it. Actually, it is the center point of this whole debate.
Is hoarding rooms to rent on e-bay a commercial venture?
If the answer is 'yes', than it is not the system we bought into. We bought into a system that the POS states there will be no commercial use of DVC.

If you look at the legal documentation on the whole, you get that renting points is allowed, plain and simple. In multiple places there are specific statements that say it's ok to rent with definitions. They are even telling them that in member meetings. There is one single vague reference to commercial ventures with NO explanation or definition and people want to hang their hat on that. It is wishfull thinking, no more and no less. Still, don't you think the "hoarding rooms to rent on ebay" is a stretch, I do?

 

[Maistre Gracey]

Dean, we will have to agree to disagree on a couple of points made in this thread. I don't think there is imminent danger of changing each others mind.

To answer your last question, yes, I also feel it is a stretch when you look at the whole DVC system. However, it may not be a huge stretch when talking about a GV, or beach cottage during busy season.

 

[jaysue]

Dean and Maistre Gracey, I am wondering how much our costs are driven up by people who constantly make ressies and then move/cancel them

Any ideas how much of our dues are driven by our MS costs?

Thanks
jaysue

 

[ncligs]

Originally posted by Maistre Gracey
Dean, we will have to agree to disagree on a couple of points made in this thread. I don't think there is imminent danger of changing each others mind.