Came across this article from an average guest

[ArwenMarie]

All the 180-day booking window for ADRs does now is encourage people to double and triple book since they don't know how their FPs are going to turn out.

 

[DisneyPrince1982]

All the 180-day booking window for ADRs does now is encourage people to double and triple book since they don't know how their FPs are going to turn out.

Or locals. If I was a local, I'd book TONS of restaurants 180 days out just on a whim. Maybe I'd go, maybe I don't. Most of the time that I don't go, I'd just cancel prior to avoid the no show fee.

 

[ArwenMarie]

Or locals. If I was a local, I'd book TONS of restaurants 180 days out just on a whim. Maybe I'd go, maybe I don't. Most of the time that I don't go, I'd just cancel prior to avoid the no show fee.

Yeah, the no-show fee doesn't discourage double/triple booking at all.

 

[JoshuaShaw]

It is simply smarter for Disney to have these be booked at this early time.

At no point has anyone said Disney isn't acting in their own self-interest. In fact, I'd say many people are arguing that Disney is acting in their own self-interest above that of the guest experience.

 

[Kalliope]

Every time someone posts about guests "hoarding" FP-, I immediately know they 1) never used the system and/or 2) didn't really know how it worked.

 

[Neverland98]

I took my family in their first Walt Disney World trip in 2010...and included grandparents, as well. I knew lots of planning would be involved and enjoyed it all, as it built the anticipation.

Then, we decided to "stop by" Mammoth Cave National Park on another road trip. I had visited as a child (back in the '80's), and knew it would be enjoyed by my husband and kids on a hot July day. I was glad I looked at their website prior to leaving. Passes to view the cave are limited and often sell out in the morning (and you might get a rather late "return time"). But, you could, pre-book your tours, so I did.

I have looked into trips to other National Parks and/or popular camping areas only to find out that these popular spots get booked up a year (or more!) in advance.

Basically, population is expanding. People are traveling. Popular spots EVERYWHERE (not just at Disney) are in demand. So, although it is tough to make dining 180 days out, it is because of the basics of supply and demand.

Now, a FL resident with an annual pass...we just booked some last minute weekend trips. Got FastPasses after the 60-day AND 30-day marks have passed. Got ADR's last minute. Could we get 7DMT? (Yes...but only on one of the trips...since we snagged that at about 58 days out). Could we get LeCellier? (Yes, but only for lunch). So, it is true...if you want the most popular food/rides, book early. But, you can still have a great last-minute, spur of the moment vacation!

Enjoy this great big, crowded world!

 

[JimmyV]

Basically, population is expanding. People are traveling. Popular spots EVERYWHERE (not just at Disney) are in demand. So, although it is tough to make dining 180 days out, it is because of the basics of supply and demand.

But this negates the fact that there is "basic supply and demand" for the world's most popular restaurants, and yet every single one of them manages just fine with reservation systems that range from 30-90 days, with 90 being rather rare. Do all of these restaurants have superior organizational skills compared to Disney? Are they in any way hampered in "ordering supplies" as one previous post suggested was the reason for the long lead time? It also ignores the fact that WDW actually did use a 90 day system for a decade and the restaurants did not come to a grinding halt. I understand what you are saying, but take a look at your post written slightly differently and see if it becomes any more or any less true depending on what number you insert:

• So, although it is tough to make dining 60 days out, it is because of the basics of supply and demand.
• So, although it is tough to make dining 90 days out, it is because of the basics of supply and demand.
• So, although it is tough to make dining 120 days out, it is because of the basics of supply and demand.
• So, although it is tough to make dining 365 days out, it is because of the basics of supply and demand.

 

[flicx]

Every time someone posts about guests "hoarding" FP-, I immediately know they 1) never used the system and/or 2) didn't really know how it worked.

I honestly shake my head when someone talks about hoarding fast passes under legacy. It is as if they think you could run from machine to machine and obtain a pass for every attraction in less than an hour. How quickly people forget about the 2 hour wait if you had one already. Legacy in my book was a far more fair and equitable system for distributing fast passes.

 

[mom2rtk]

Personally I found the "beyond user friendly" pretty hilarious.

I hear there's a thread on the DIS that can help with that.

 

[MrInfinity]

It also reads as if 180 days out is the time when people book their entire vacation at WDW and ADRs are simply one of many things that they lock in at that time. But when resorts bookings are made a year (or more) out and FPs are booked 60 days out, it becomes crystal clear that 180 days out for dining is not done for either necessary operational reasons or for the benefit of the diner. WDW did not come to a screeching halt when ADRs were made 90 days out. Disney could go back to 90 days or move to 365 days and nothing in your post becomes any more or any less true.

Your "entire vacation booking" analysis fails when resort, dining, tee time and attraction reservations are all made at different points in time. If they want people to book their entire vacations, why not let people book all those things at once?

Yes I'd say about 6 months out is pretty typical for booking a vacation. (not saying you book at 6 months). When it's more than a long weekend, people need time off work, and that requires some planning. You may even plan for it 9 months out, but then the actual bookings would come in later. Some ppl may book shorter out, but the ADRs encourage them to book at no less than 6 mo if they want to get their first choice of dining. Since ADRs are in very high demand, Disney can thereby encourage guests to book at 6 mo. If they had the ADR window at 90 days, ppl would be more inclined to wait to book till maybe 4 months out. The earlier people book the more useful the information is. Think about it. You're not going to tie up your money any earlier than you have to, unless you get some benefit out of it.

The way this is worded is coming across as saying that people are booking entire Disney vacations because of the dining...that enticing people to book dining at 180 days is the *cause* to them booking trips to wdw.

It is not the *cause* of them deciding to go. A family decides to go based on wanting to take their kids or whatever. Then once they decide to go, they have a choice. Do we book now? Should we wait till 90 days before? Once you decide to go, ADRs at 180 days encourage that guest to book (and put their $200 down) at 180 days, then pick park days, and make some reservations. At this point, the guest is much less likely to decide to change their days 2 months later when a slightly better special comes out, and they're less likely to decide just to not go. If you've put nothing down, you are not in the mindset of "we're definitely going to Disney world". Once you book the trip tho, the sense of really going sets in.

These things all factor in. I assure you there is an elaborate science and several teams earning nice salaries to study this and analyze what would optimize the booking dollars. Just like you study Disney to figure out how to minimize your expense while getting the vacation you want, they are studying you and I to figure out how to get the guest to book as early as possible, pay as early as possible, book ADRs as early as possible, and then get them to plan to save money to pay for those as early as possible. Disney has this down.

 

[MrInfinity]

...

 

[JimmyV]

Since ADRs are in very high demand, Disney can thereby encourage guests to book at 6 mo. If they had the ADR window at 90 days, ppl would be more inclined to wait to book till maybe 4 months out. The earlier people book the more useful the information is. Think about it. You're not going to tie up your money any earlier than you have to, unless you get some benefit out of it.

I think you are too tethered to the idea that "since this is the way Disney chooses to do it, it must be the right way." Inns and Bed and Breakfasts in Napa Valley are in high demand. So are tables at the top restaurants. I can book my lodging 6 months out, (and for purposes of this post I am perfectly willing to buy in to your idea that six months out seems about right for planning a vacation, though I am more of a "9 months to a year" guy), and still book my dinner reservations 30 or 60 days out as appropriate. Those restaurants still get "useful information". At least I think they do, because Napa Valley has a dozen restaurants that blow every Disney restaurant out of the water save V&A. So they are doing something right. And the 30 or 60 day reservation window does not impact my decision to book my lodging whatsoever. In fact, it is quite the opposite. If those restaurants had 180 day booking windows and I wanted to plan a vacation 150 days out, I might (indeed, would) be discouraged from booking that vacation if I came to learn that all of the restaurants that I wanted to dine at were already filled up. In this instance, the longer booking window discourages my vacation rather than encouraging it.

 

[cisco911]

I honestly shake my head when someone talks about hoarding fast passes under legacy. It is as if they think you could run from machine to machine and obtain a pass for every attraction in less than an hour. How quickly people forget about the 2 hour wait if you had one already. Legacy in my book was a far more fair and equitable system for distributing fast passes.

I disagree with you, but even if you are correct about it not being a hoarding situation, how is going from machine to machine and getting a piece of paper a more efficient system than one that is tied into an App where you can pre book and change on the fly? The reality is that most people going to the parks like people that had never been before had no clue about the FP- system and just waited in line or found out about it when they got to the park and barely used it. This meant that veterans of the system could take advantage of the FP- system as there was more availability. Now Disney has promoted the heck out of this system so that everyone entering the park knows about FP+ and as a hotel guest you get emails reminding you of your fastpass selecting date so that you make sure to book your 3 attractions per day. So now everyone has equal knowledge of the system. Now people also complain about hotel guests getting 60 advance vs everyone else getting 30 advance booking privileges. I think this is very fair. Disney is giving their hotel guests the perk of getting in before everyone else for staying with them. Besides the theming and transit, what would be the benefit of staying in property vs down the street for a lower price? This is a common system everywhere that allows people priority access for being a "member".

 

[MrInfinity]

I think you are too tethered to the idea that "since this is the way Disney chooses to do it, it must be the right way." Inns and Bed and Breakfasts in Napa Valley are in high demand. So are tables at the top restaurants. I can book my lodging 6 months out, (and for purposes of this post I am perfectly willing to buy in to your idea that six months out seems about right for planning a vacation, though I am more of a "9 months to a year" guy), and still book my dinner reservations 30 or 60 days out as appropriate. Those restaurants still get "useful information". At least I think they do, because Napa Valley has a dozen restaurants that blow every Disney restaurant out of the water save V&A. So they are doing something right. And the 30 or 60 day reservation window does not impact my decision to book my lodging whatsoever. In fact, it is quite the opposite. If those restaurants had 180 day booking windows and I wanted to plan a vacation 150 days out, I might (indeed, would) be discouraged from booking that vacation if I came to learn that all of the restaurants that I wanted to dine at were already filled up. In this instance, the longer booking window discourages my vacation rather than encouraging it.

Obviously they're not in as high of demand as CRT. They're just not.

I lived in Northern Cal. Did many trips to Napa. A B&B in Napa is not the same as 50,000 guests going thru the MK all of which want to eat at BOG - which just opened, and therefore everyone wants to try it despite the fact that the restaurant cannot serve them all. Anyone know how many BOG can handle in a typical day?

You're comparing a sparse region to packing 50,000 people into a single park where there are one or two prime dining reservations that (by Disney's marketing and everyone's compulsion to experience that which is new) people feel they need to eat at.

Obviously if BOG existed outside Disney World in some regular city, it would be walk-up day-of service like a Rainforest Café or similar.

 

[JimmyV]

Obviously they're not in as high of demand as CRT. They're just not.

You're just wrong about that. The demand might be lower in total volume, but the days and hours of operation and the number of tables available are so, so much smaller. And frankly, at some point of critical mass, it just doesn't matter. If 50,000 people want to dine at CRT one day, and 2,000 people want to dine at The French Laundry one day, the results are the same. The first 100 people who get through on the telephone line are going to get the tables.

Anyone know how many BOG can handle in a typical day?

B, L and D? Several thousand.

 

[MrInfinity]

You're just wrong about that. The demand might be lower in total volume, but the days and hours of operation and the number of tables available are so, so much smaller. And frankly, at some point of critical mass, it just doesn't matter. If 50,000 people want to dine at CRT one day, and 2,000 people want to dine at The French Laundry one day, the results are the same. The first 100 people who get through on the telephone line are going to get the tables.

Exactly, the first ones to book it win. That's why Disney opens the ressies so early, because people know this competitive aspect of each other.

It's a simple captive audience. You have 50,000 people who know they will be in the MK 6 mo from now. They know that BOG is there, and they want to do it, and they know it only serves (guessing) 5,000 or whatever (feel free to insert correct number). Immediately then, the smart thing to do is book it if you want it. Going to the French Laundry, you know there are not 50,000 people being dropped on it the day you'll go (and every other day, too)

There simply are not 50,000 people per day that want to get into the French Laundry. The competition is not there. There are no thousands of fanboard sites and facebook groups pinpointing the instant something new breaks there, and there are no multitude of peripheral sites that are built to snipe a reservation there.

 

[JimmyV]

Exactly, the first ones to book it win. That's why Disney opens the ressies so early, because people know this competitive aspect of each other.

But this falls into the same trap I outlined above. The first one to book 180 days out wins. And the first one to book 90 days out wins. And the first one to book 60 days out wins. And the first one to book 365 days out wins. You are using 180 days as the "right number" simply because Disney chose it. But once upon a time, Disney chose 90. That worked really well for the guests.

Just like FP+. We could have a discussion today and you could give me all the reasons why 60 days is just perfect. And in the future, when Disney moves the date out to 90 days, which it surely will, what then? What becomes of your "perfect" argument? I am simply using 90 for dining as your 60 for FP.

There are no thousands of fanboard sites and facebook groups pinpointing the instant something new breaks there, and there are no multitude of peripheral sites that are built to snipe a reservation there.

Only because things do not change fast enough to warrant "breaking new", and only because they only take reservations by phone, except for one table a day allotted to Open Table. I dare you to try to snag that one. To do so, you have to be up in the middle of the night hitting refresh and then get very, very lucky. Sound familiar?

 

[Pmlocke]

WOW. There sure are a lot of opinions regarding planning, fast passes, waiting in lines, not getting the reservations I wanted because I decided to go on a trip without a great deal of advanced planning or knowledge. I have been to WDW with my children, my grandchildren and now just my wife and I make an annual trek. I understand the need to please the children. Been there, done that. No one wants to wait in long lines, no one wants to be told the restaurant is full and cannot accommodate you and your family. We all seem to forget that the Magic Kingdom averages just over 53,000 guests per day. That is the average-not the norm. If a restaurant can accommodate 600 diners at a time, taking into account one hour per seating, it would take 88 one hour seating's to accommodate everyone. As this is impossible there needs to be the realization that this one restaurant cannot accommodate everyone, every day. Someone, actually a lot of "someones" will not get the experience they truly want-whether they plan 180 days in advance or just show up. It is not the fault of Disney for neglecting to build a "Magic Kingdom" that could accommodate that many people for dining, or easy access to venues without waiting, etc. Expectations can be harnessed with some planning but even then it may be difficult to get the ideal trip for your families needs. My wife and I are now in our 60's and we have been traveling to WDW annually as a solo couple for the last 6 years and have found that these trips have given us the greatest pleasure with the least amount of planning. For instance, we are traveling down next February. I already have my rooms, park passes, dining and dining reservations and it only took me 30 minutes of talking to a wonderful cast member on the phone. That's it, all done. No fast passes for us. If a ride has a line for more than 20 minutes, we walk on by. That 30 minutes got me my ideal dining spots, off course I did all of this 180 days out but it is something that you have to do. Going to WDW can be difficult, especially with young ones and their expectations but I can tell you-there is a rainbow at the end of all of this, older age.

 

[MrInfinity]

But this falls into the same trap I outlined above. The first one to book 180 days out wins. And the first one to book 90 days out wins. And the first one to book 60 days out wins. And the first one to book 365 days out wins. You are using 180 days as the "right number" simply because Disney chose it. But once upon a time, Disney chose 90. That worked really well for the guests.

Just like FP+. We could have a discussion today and you could give me all the reasons why 60 days is just perfect. And in the future, when Disney moves the date out to 90 days, which it surely will, what then? What becomes of your "perfect" argument? I am simply using 90 for dining as your 60 for FP.

Only because things do not change fast enough to warrant "breaking new", and only because they only take reservations by phone, except for one table a day allotted to Open Table. I dare you to try to snag that one. To do so, you have to be up in the middle of the night hitting refresh and then get very, very lucky. Sound familiar?

Oh, I see what you're going for. Fair point. In that regard, I never said I think it's the right number. I said I think Disney studied this, and they came up with 180 because that would most optimize their booking process and best leverage their restaurants to maximize revenue. Maybe they did a study 5 years ago and found 90 days was it, but new evidence, a recovering economy, or whatever, led them to change it to 180. Maybe they concluded that the market would bear 180 but not 365. Comcast can raise my rate $5 and I might not cancel them, but if they raise it $15 I might. What I said is that I believe Disney has a team of people who study this and they are picking the number based on the results of their efforts. I did not say it was necessarily right, just that it's their call and if that is what they think is right, well, it hasn't caused me not to book.

People are suggesting 180 is arbitrary. Even you... Why 90? Why 365? Why not 30? I think the reason it is 180 is because that is what Disney found would work the best in the current environment. I can see lots of good reasons to have the date be further out than when the specials are released.

 

[JoshuaShaw]

Now Disney has promoted the heck out of this system so that everyone entering the park knows about FP+

So you would agree that if Disney had done a better job promoting Legacy FP that more guests would have used it?