Came across this article from an average guest

[flicx]

I disagree with you, but even if you are correct about it not being a hoarding situation, how is going from machine to machine and getting a piece of paper a more efficient system than one that is tied into an App where you can pre book and change on the fly? The reality is that most people going to the parks like people that had never been before had no clue about the FP- system and just waited in line or found out about it when they got to the park and barely used it. This meant that veterans of the system could take advantage of the FP- system as there was more availability. Now Disney has promoted the heck out of this system so that everyone entering the park knows about FP+ and as a hotel guest you get emails reminding you of your fastpass selecting date so that you make sure to book your 3 attractions per day. So now everyone has equal knowledge of the system. Now people also complain about hotel guests getting 60 advance vs everyone else getting 30 advance booking privileges. I think this is very fair. Disney is giving their hotel guests the perk of getting in before everyone else for staying with them. Besides the theming and transit, what would be the benefit of staying in property vs down the street for a lower price? This is a common system everywhere that allows people priority access for being a "member".

First of all hoarding never existed under legacy. You used your ticket from the park from the day you entered to get passes. If the ticket wasn't used you didn't get a fast pass. Under plus people have multiple bracelets doubling up passes and getting more(hoarding?). Now how about the 60 day window that when many log on and passes are gone at midnight? Didn't happen with legacy show up at rope drop and you could choose any ride in the park that used fastpass. As someone stated earlier Disney is at fault for not advertising legacy better. It wasn't that it was a bad system, Disney didn't back it as much as plus. Legacy was by far an easier system to use, insert ticket get pass. I stand by my statement legacy was far more fair than plus.

 

[JimmyV]

I think the reason it is 180 is because that is what Disney found would work the best in the current environment.

I'm all in on this concept. But where this all began, and what the author is driving at, is: Is all this being done because Disney found what would work best for the guest, or is it being done because Disney found what would work best for itself? A silly question, I know, in a business environment. But it becomes a little less silly when the business in question has a reputation for customer service and has a sycophantic fan base who think that Uncle Walt truly loves them. With the advent of FP+ (and things like 180 day ADRs), people are reaching the sad realization that Disney is just like every other company and acts out of self-interest. Kind of like finding out that there is no (insert your favorite fictional holiday icon here).

 

[Mikie]

First of all hoarding never existed under legacy. You used your ticket from the park from the day you entered to get passes. If the ticket wasn't used you didn't get a fast pass. Under plus people have multiple bracelets doubling up passes and getting more. Now how about the 60 day window that when many log on and passes are gone at midnight? Didn't happen with legacy show up at rope drop and you could choose any ride in the park that used fastpass. As someone stated earlier Disney is at fault for not advertising legacy better. It wasn't that it was a bad system, Disney didn't back it as much as plus. Legacy was by far an easier system to use, insert ticket get pass. I stand by my statement legacy was far more fair than plus.

Well, I think "hoarding" is an unnecessarily negative word for it, but "accumulating" certainly did occur in the past. Prior to the return times being enforced, people (many? a few really crafty folks?) would pick up a fastpass at the earliest opportunity throughout the day and hold onto them to use all in a row at the end of the day. I've seen more than a few posts here on DIS where people showed photos of a table full of a day's passes to illustrate how much more they could accomplish under the old system vs the new.

I don't subscribe to the notion that this was abuse. If you agree with the premise that the prior system was underutilized, then there's no way that a person using a legitimate park ticket and waiting until each 2 hour window expired before being able to pull an additional FP could have been depriving anyone from also pulling their own fair share of FPs.

Disney obviously felt that this accumulation was an unintended usage and eventually chose to enforce the printed return times to elmiinate it.

I totally agree that methods for accumulating more than your share of FP+ is a result of a more calculated manipulation of the system and doing things that may not violate what is "possible", but certainly violate the spirit of the simple "3 per ticketed entry per day" rules.

I think the overall fairness of each system when used as intended is a tossup. Just 2 different ways of looking at it.

 

[JimmyV]

If you agree with the premise that the prior system was underutilized, then there's no way that a person using a legitimate park ticket and waiting until each 2 hour window expired before being able to pull an additional FP could have been depriving anyone from also pulling their own fair share of FPs.

Exactly. The two systems worked differently. With FP-, Disney was saying: "We are going to distribute x,xxx number of FPs for this ride, and we really don't care who gets them or when they use them, subject to the one-every-two-hour-or-most-recent-return-time restriction." So yes, accumulation took place. But hoarding implies obtaining and retaining something so that others cannot also get it. If I had a FP for the 2:00-3:00 hour and used it at 3:10, that didn't inhibit or prohibit anyone else from pulling a FP. My actions did not impact anyone else's.

But FP+ works differently. Now, Disney does care who gets the FPs and how many they get and when they get used.

 

[cisco911]

First of all hoarding never existed under legacy. You used your ticket from the park from the day you entered to get passes. If the ticket wasn't used you didn't get a fast pass. Under plus people have multiple bracelets doubling up passes and getting more(hoarding?). Now how about the 60 day window that when many log on and passes are gone at midnight? Didn't happen with legacy show up at rope drop and you could choose any ride in the park that used fastpass. As someone stated earlier Disney is at fault for not advertising legacy better. It wasn't that it was a bad system, Disney didn't back it as much as plus. Legacy was by far an easier system to use, insert ticket get pass. I stand by my statement legacy was far more fair than plus.

Well I guess we agree to disagree which is what everyone needs to do. At the end of the day, disney think or knows that all these changes have benefited them financially. At the end of the day, even though disney is known for great service and magic, they are a business that needs to make money and make their investors money. So the whole FP+,ADR, etc systems are obviously doing that. Can't make everyone happy with anything. I'm happy with the new system so I give Disney an A+ and that works out great for disney and for me

 

[MrInfinity]

But FP+ works differently. Now, Disney does care who gets the FPs and how many they get and when they get used.

And they should. Their rides are one of their most coveted assets. They absolutely should have a digital system in place that allows them to better monetize their rides.

Disney is selling rooms, and the rides (and other experiences) are the carrot. They don't want to have their rides be ridden most by people paying a fraction of the cost and staying offsite. FP+ gives them more control to create a package that is most beneficial for resort guests, somewhat beneficial for AP holders, and least useful for those staying offsite. It's only going to go more in this direction. Increase the value of Disney hotels relative to those around. Club Level FP's are a symptom we're seeing. FP+ is a perk Disney can control and give out how they want, not be taken by the guests that are the most resourceful.

 

[Jennytoon]

I disagree with you, but even if you are correct about it not being a hoarding situation, how is going from machine to machine and getting a piece of paper a more efficient system than one that is tied into an App where you can pre book and change on the fly? The reality is that most people going to the parks like people that had never been before had no clue about the FP- system and just waited in line or found out about it when they got to the park and barely used it. This meant that veterans of the system could take advantage of the FP- system as there was more availability. Now Disney has promoted the heck out of this system so that everyone entering the park knows about FP+ and as a hotel guest you get emails reminding you of your fastpass selecting date so that you make sure to book your 3 attractions per day. So now everyone has equal knowledge of the system.

This is not even the only factor. I see people routinely post that under FP- everyone had an equal chance at the FP every day, and I always want to modify that statement to read "Everyone had an equal chance at FP every day whose vacation style was suited to using them optimally."

We used legacy FP, but because of our touring style we used it relatively minimally. The hyperbole that all the FP were gone by noon for every ride is not true, but it certainly is true that outside of the MK FP return times (for any ride where you really needed them) climbed fast enough that if you didn't plan to either get there at rope drop and / or stay for more than a few hours, they might as well be gone because the times were of no use to you. People complain about not being able to get a FP+ for both Soarin' and Test Track, but as a concrete example we never had one under FP- either -- by the time we could get a second after pulling one for the first of the two, the times would be during the window where our kids were out of the park napping. And standing around in front of the machine waiting for the times to get late enough that we would then be able to use it when we came back in the evening (if we did) was not actually my idea of a good way to spend our limited vacation minutes in the park.

I don't think there's any question that there is a group whose vacation style worked better with FP- than FP+. However, I think Disney went with FP+ because they think it works better with a wider variety of vacation styles (i.e. more of their visitors) than FP- did. It may not only be that Disney is marketing FP+ better, it may also be that for some segment of the population that did not utilize FP- they are now able to use FP+ *and* vacation the way they want to (most commonly cited: sleeping in), rather than having to choose.

 

[Angel Ariel]

Yes I'd say about 6 months out is pretty typical for booking a vacation. (not saying you book at 6 months). When it's more than a long weekend, people need time off work, and that requires some planning. You may even plan for it 9 months out, but then the actual bookings would come in later. Some ppl may book shorter out, but the ADRs encourage them to book at no less than 6 mo if they want to get their first choice of dining. Since ADRs are in very high demand, Disney can thereby encourage guests to book at 6 mo. If they had the ADR window at 90 days, ppl would be more inclined to wait to book till maybe 4 months out. The earlier people book the more useful the information is. Think about it. You're not going to tie up your money any earlier than you have to, unless you get some benefit out of it.



It is not the *cause* of them deciding to go. A family decides to go based on wanting to take their kids or whatever. Then once they decide to go, they have a choice. Do we book now? Should we wait till 90 days before? Once you decide to go, ADRs at 180 days encourage that guest to book (and put their $200 down) at 180 days, then pick park days, and make some reservations. At this point, the guest is much less likely to decide to change their days 2 months later when a slightly better special comes out, and they're less likely to decide just to not go. If you've put nothing down, you are not in the mindset of "we're definitely going to Disney world". Once you book the trip tho, the sense of really going sets in.

These things all factor in. I assure you there is an elaborate science and several teams earning nice salaries to study this and analyze what would optimize the booking dollars. Just like you study Disney to figure out how to minimize your expense while getting the vacation you want, they are studying you and I to figure out how to get the guest to book as early as possible, pay as early as possible, book ADRs as early as possible, and then get them to plan to save money to pay for those as early as possible. Disney has this down.

Oh I'm well aware that Disney is studying all of this and basing decisions on data they have. No assurances necessary

As for it being typical to plan vacations 6 months out (Not just book accommodations, but plan dining and such)..we are just going to have to agree to disagree there.

 

[DisneyPrince1982]

Seems like I need to try this place called "The French Laundry." Is that in Napa?

 

[Rhombus]

He should come to Disneyland instead. We still have paper FP's.

Glad to hear this, since we ditched our WDW plans for October and we're going to DL instead. FP+ wasn't a factor in switching, and I WAS kind of looking forward to trying it. But I'll settle for the good old reliable paper FPs. (Airfare was actually cheaper to LAX than to MCO from Philadelphia.)

 

[bcrook]

Disney has done things that were far worse, but I agree that social media has changed the way that we discuss those things. Imagine if Disney were to go back to the E-Ticket days and limit the number of times that you could ride your favorite attraction unless you were willing to pay more? The world was a different place back then. Social media has changed us.

I don't think it has to do with social media. This is just a controversial iniative that wasn't thought out well, doesn't have the IT to back it up, and is used to cover up a severe shortage of rides. It was doomed to be a mess. Tiers alone testify to that. Social media doesn't necessarily = negativity. look at the enthusiasm and hope surrounding the DHS additions sometime in the distant future...social media glowed. Mm+ was a terrible investment for customer satisfaction. They should have known this.

 

[bcrook]

Glad to hear this, since we ditched our WDW plans for October and we're going to DL instead. FP+ wasn't a factor in switching, and I WAS kind of looking forward to trying it. But I'll settle for the good old reliable paper FPs. (Airfare was actually cheaper to LAX than to MCO from Philadelphia.)

And you will have a blast. Sponteniety rules there.

 

[bcrook]

Free Roaming was a fight waiting to break out every time. It wasn't safe for the kids or the characters, and caused a lot of hurt feelings.

It still works fine in DL.

 

[bcrook]

The article is a convincing one, and I found myself agreeing in principle. I can definitely see Disney through his eyes.

However, does that oasis the author is looking for exist anywhere? Can anyone simply show up for their vacation and have things work out smoothly? I can't help myself; I have to research everything I do. And I put in as much research as the particular vacation requires. I'm the only one in my family who enjoys it, though, so no one else pays it much mind. When we finally reach our destination, it feels spontaneous to the others on the trip. There are lots of ways to watch a clock, not all of them have to be stressful.

Well yes. It happens all the time for me. I go to National Parks and don't need reservations for trails months in advance. I can show up in Boston and Chicago and San Francisco and enjoy City Pass the day of. I didn't have trouble in Disneyland just walking in and getting started. I don't have trouble at Dollywood, Silver Dollar City, Williamsburg, Cooperstown, Charleston, Savannah, or Washington DC. I had no trouble enjoying Sedona, Santa Fe, the beaches of Oregon or Portland. I go to baseball games and buy tickets the same day. I have no trouble walking in to San Diego zoo, the art museum in Houston, or nature centers all over the country. I even walked in to Islands of Adventure on Memorial Day and enjoyed that park, and I had no idea anything was there except Harry Potter. Busch Gardens in Tampa and Williamsburg - easy to enjoy.- no planning.

Actually, I can't think of any vacation that takes the amount of scheduling that three days in WDW requires.

 

[Planogirl]

I agree that preplanning is a good idea in many locations but six months?

When we went to Philadelphia, I purchases passes for Independence Hall and the haunted attraction at Eastern State Penitentiary ahead of time but it wasn't anywhere close to six months in advance and these are very popular attractions. Just as bcrook said, I can't recall ever doing anything as far in advance as I do at WDW when it comes to dining and side attractions.

 

[maxiesmom]

It still works fine in DL.

But as has been pointed out DL has more locals than WDW. WDW attracts more guests who vacation there once, or maybe one time a year, and feel more of a need to get that character picture asap.

 

[bcrook]

But as has been pointed out DL has more locals than WDW. WDW attracts more guests who vacation there once, or maybe one time a year, and feel more of a need to get that character picture asap.

I think it is because they have more things to do, more attractions; but I don't want an argument. I liked it at WDW when they did it more, I like it at Disneyland. It is fun to see them roaming. Star Wars Weekend is kind of like that.

 

[Tarheel girl 1975]

This is not even the only factor. I see people routinely post that under FP- everyone had an equal chance at the FP every day, and I always want to modify that statement to read "Everyone had an equal chance at FP every day whose vacation style was suited to using them optimally."

We used legacy FP, but because of our touring style we used it relatively minimally. The hyperbole that all the FP were gone by noon for every ride is not true, but it certainly is true that outside of the MK FP return times (for any ride where you really needed them) climbed fast enough that if you didn't plan to either get there at rope drop and / or stay for more than a few hours, they might as well be gone because the times were of no use to you. People complain about not being able to get a FP+ for both Soarin' and Test Track, but as a concrete example we never had one under FP- either -- by the time we could get a second after pulling one for the first of the two, the times would be during the window where our kids were out of the park napping. And standing around in front of the machine waiting for the times to get late enough that we would then be able to use it when we came back in the evening (if we did) was not actually my idea of a good way to spend our limited vacation minutes in the park.

I don't think there's any question that there is a group whose vacation style worked better with FP- than FP+. However, I think Disney went with FP+ because they think it works better with a wider variety of vacation styles (i.e. more of their visitors) than FP- did. It may not only be that Disney is marketing FP+ better, it may also be that for some segment of the population that did not utilize FP- they are now able to use FP+ *and* vacation the way they want to (most commonly cited: sleeping in), rather than having to choose.

But the time you arrived at the parks was under your control. And if you woke up and saw it was raining and decided to go to DHS instead of AK, you could do that without many problems, especially before they implemented ADR cancellation fees.

Now Disney controls that I can't get FP for both headliners at DHS or Epcot or choose multiple FP for my favorite rides in one day.

And if I need to change my plans, I no longer have a clean slate to work with the next day. With legacy, I only had to get there at rope drop to ensure I got the FP I wanted. Now, I only have what's left in the system.

And honestly, because FP+ limits what I can get FP for, I feel like I have to rope drop every park except AK anyway.

 

[Mambo Junkie]

Legacy fastpass - Spring break week.
Got to HS at 9 am. While DH DS and DS friend went back to Star Tours I walked over to ToT and secured legacy fp for 9:45 - 10:45. Note "WALKED". As I was walking back to meet them, I ran into them coming back from having ridden ST near the GMR and we went into the Sound Studio, which was just going in. Finished that, we had time to do the Animation exhibit, then rode ToT. Got fps for RnR 1:15 - 2:15. Walked back, did the Backlot Tour, Muppets, watched the Ace Ventura stunt show, WALKED into Mama Melrose and ate lunch. Rode RnR, watched Indiana Jones and left the park around 245. Lounged around the room, swam, then went back over around 6:30. Star Tours again, Great Movie Ride. Little Mermaid, Fantasmic. Great day with no hurries, no schedule, no stress on one of the busiest weeks out of the year.
Can't do that anymore, even skipping the resort relaxation time.

 

[bcrook]

And they should. Their rides are one of their most coveted assets. They absolutely should have a digital system in place that allows them to better monetize their rides.

Disney is selling rooms, and the rides (and other experiences) are the carrot. They don't want to have their rides be ridden most by people paying a fraction of the cost and staying offsite. FP+ gives them more control to create a package that is most beneficial for resort guests, somewhat beneficial for AP holders, and least useful for those staying offsite. It's only going to go more in this direction. Increase the value of Disney hotels relative to those around. Club Level FP's are a symptom we're seeing. FP+ is a perk Disney can control and give out how they want, not be taken by the guests that are the most resourceful.

This makes it sound like this is some glorious product Disney created to reward guests and make people happy.

According to all releases when this was unveiled, the Disney brass claimed it was designed to get more out of their current infrastructure without building a bunch of new rides, trick people to spend more with magicbands, and collect Big Data. They tried to cloak it in the Surprise and Delight and the theme park as a platform with never seen before 'built-in' interactivity. But they quickly punted all the interactivity and surprise and delight. It functions now as a ride rationing system with tiers. They have realized the error of their ways and are now investing billions in attractions.

The more nefarious things Disney can do with this will come later when they have enough popular rides to get people to start fighting over lots of rides at 60 days. Right now only 7dmt is a problem. That isnt enough demand to start charging for them, giving bonuses to deluxe guests, or monetizing them. So far the public has been Luke warm to this locking in stuff. Disney hasn't created the 'drug' they had hoped...yet.

But, when Frozen goes on line, the River of Light, nighttime Safari, Soarin over Pandora, it's a Blue World after All, slinky dog coaster, it could cause a run on FP+. If that happens, and the entire FP catalog becomes in demand at the 30 day mark, that is when Disney can start really messing with us.