Came across this article from an average guest

[Angel Ariel]

I was interpreting "something in it that benefits Disney" that way. Sorry if that was the wrong intent.

That was not at all what I said or what I meant. In actuality, when I wrote it I was thinking of things like staffing and operations - which has long been discussed here as something that MM+ is supposed to be doing to benefit Disney, so it wouldn't surprise me if that was the thinking behind ADRs as well. I have never been one to call or imply Disney is insidious, and I don't appreciate the implication.

 

[GaryDis]

But what operational reason could there be that does not also impact the world's most popular, in demand restaurants? And I realize that that is a rhetorical question to which you personally do not have the answer.

I'm not sure whether "most popular, in demand restaurants" means WDW restaurants or places like the French Laundry that you mentioned previously.

Of course many of the things they do for operational reasons will impact guests. Not much we can do about that. I never cared for the new bus depot at the MK. I always thought that everyone should have the anticipation and excitement of the ferry or monorail. They didn't ask me, and they did it because they had to.

 

[MataHari22]

Ah, yes, the Disney hotels there are expensive. That's why we are across the street at a good.neighbor hotel (and actually closer to the park gates than 2 of the Disney hotels).

May I ask, which good neighbor hotels do you recommend?

 

[GaryDis]

That was not at all what I said or what I meant. In actuality, when I wrote it I was thinking of things like staffing and operations - which has long been discussed here as something that MM+ is supposed to be doing to benefit Disney, so it wouldn't surprise me if that was the thinking behind ADRs as well. I have never been one to call or imply Disney is insidious, and I don't appreciate the implication.

My apologies then.

 

[ShinyRedGloss]

I totally understand the guys frustration. I so miss the days of the fp paper. Why? Because I have a toddler, who would rather go on Small World three times or Dumbo three/four times than ride them once, and Fp+ does not accommodate for that. It insists that I go on a ride once, and will sometimes put us on things that we don't want fp+ for or are interested in or puts us at times that are nap times. Sounds weird, let me explain: say we are going to AK, and all we want to see is the Safari maybe 2x, bird show, trails and Triceratops spin. You can't really do that in Fp+ land. I get annoyed when they foist FOTLK, Everest and other e-tickets on you, and feel like I am taking away fp from people who want them. Does that make sense? I also really miss being able to give people paper fp that you didn't use that day. It was a great way to make others happy.
Btw: my husband also was very unhappy, to say the least when we found out beaches and cream was now ADR. Threw a fit. Just so frustrating when there is NOTHING available for months and months and the cm is saying, "well, if you had called a year ago, you could have gotten in."

FP+ doesn't the limit the amount of times you can ride a ride. It just sets up a window. You can always cancel/change unwanted an pass and change times if the pass hasn't been used. I don't think you HAVE to book 3 FP at once. (I could be wrong) You can always change your selection. Of course some things might not be available.

Anyways, I can see how all the planning can be stressful to non-planners or first-timers. I have always been a planner; this is what draws me back to WDW. I go during lower crowd days so in the event I don't have a pass waits are never an issue. I think if you just relax and enjoy your trip regardless of the planning, you'll have a good time. Unfortunately, few people actually relax during vacation because they are compelled keep their itinerary. I hate to be cheesy, but sometimes you just have to "let it go."

 

[MrInfinity]

The ADR window opening up at 180 days is over the top, IMO. It doesn't *need* to be that long of a window. Obviously there's something in that that benefits Disney, though, or they wouldn't be doing it.

Exactly, the 180 is not arbitrary. I'm sure this date comes before the specials come out because this way, ppl take time off work, they book a package, and they get some ADRs. THEN, specials come out, and ppl are unlikely to change because they'd have to change their time off, get now harder to get ADRs. It locks ppl in to their dates. It is simply smarter for Disney to have these be booked at this early time.

That's a goal of releasing specials. You want specials to generate NEW sales. Not to simply be things that people rebook from non-specials dates. By having ADRs fill up, it makes it less likely that ppl will change dates, and the specials can then encourage new sales during those times when ADRs are already taken by ppl who were willing to pay a higher rate.

There is a science to these dates, they're not arbitrary. Same thing w the FP window at 60 but the cancellation at 45.

 

[mesaboy2]

FP+ doesn't the limit the amount of times you can ride a ride. It just sets up a window. You can always cancel/change unwanted an pass and change times if the pass hasn't been used. I don't think you HAVE to book 3 FP at once. (I could be wrong) You can always change your selection. Of course some things might not be available.

Anyways, I can see how all the planning can be stressful to non-planners or first-timers. I have always been a planner; this is what draws me back to WDW. I go during lower crowd days so in the event I don't have a pass waits are never an issue. I think if you just relax and enjoy your trip regardless of the planning, you'll have a good time. Unfortunately, few people actually relax during vacation because they are compelled keep their itinerary. I hate to be cheesy, but sometimes you just have to "let it go."

The system forces you to pick 3 initially. They can be changed or cancelled afterwards, but I never recommend canceling.

 

[MrInfinity]

I still think they need to mix legacy and plus. One advanced reservation from home. The rest at the park old style like legacy except add more kiosks to handle the crowd.

I haven't really confirmed this, but I thought someone else said extra FPs were released each day for same-day guests. Which means what you're suggesting is basically already happening? Obviously they need enough kiosks to handle the load, but SDFPs will move to phones eventually. Another stage of the FP+ rollout that I consider inevitable.

 

[mesaboy2]

I haven't really confirmed this, but I thought someone else said extra FPs were released each day for same-day guests. Which means what you're suggesting is basically already happening? Obviously they need enough kiosks to handle the load, but SDFPs will move to phones eventually. Another stage of the FP+ rollout that I consider inevitable.

There is no evidence to support this.

 

[MrInfinity]

All I know is that the best, greatest, most popular, hard to get into, in demand restaurants in THE WORLD do not use reservation systems that book 180 days out. The only one I know (knew) of was El Bulli (RIP). And that wasn't a reservation system so much as it was a personal plea to please be allowed to dine there on any day possible and the restaurant assigned you a day, like it or not. If The French Laundry can operate taking reservations two months out to the calendar day, then Le Cellier can too. I have dined at WDW when reservations (when they were called that) were made up to 30 days out. And Priority Seating 30 days out. And Priority Seating 60 days out. And Priority Seating 90 days out. And ADRs 180 days out. And 180+10 days out. There is nothing better or special about the current system from the users' standpoint. None of this was done with the guest's best interest in mind. To assume otherwise is an exercise in rationalization.

Booking a restaurant is not the same as booking a vacation. A restaurant you pick some days before. A vacation you pick 6 months before. Ppl need to request time off work, school, and so on. Totally different. You're trying to compare restaurant to restaurant when really you're comparing night at a restaurant to family vacation.

But what operational reason could there be that does not also impact the world's most popular, in demand restaurants? And I realize that that is a rhetorical question to which you personally do not have the answer.

The operational difference is that the in-demand restaurant is trying to sell you one over-priced meal in one normal evening. But Disney is not. Disney is leveraging the demand of their restaurants to lock you in to a $4000 vacation in which you'll eat at 20 of their restaurants, plan time off work, and pull your kids out of school over the course of 2 weeks. Totally different.

 

[GreatLakes]

I'm not a fan of the 180+ day ADR window either but it is what it is. I always assumed they have the window that long to help with forecasting and to use the data to better analyze the need to release specials. It is not a perfect predictor of use but can be used as a data point for intent.

For example, a larger then expected number of ADRs for restaurants in AK would indicate that attendance in that park will be a bit higher then expected for that day and staffing can be adjusted accordingly. The further out the window the earlier they have the data to plug into their forecasting algorithms.

 

[flicx]

I haven't really confirmed this, but I thought someone else said extra FPs were released each day for same-day guests. Which means what you're suggesting is basically already happening? Obviously they need enough kiosks to handle the load, but SDFPs will move to phones eventually. Another stage of the FP+ rollout that I consider inevitable.

No, they are not doing what I suggested. One fast pass each day from home. The rest the day of at the park, legacy style.

 

[Angel Ariel]

The operational difference is that the in-demand restaurant is trying to sell you one over-priced meal in one normal evening. But Disney is not. Disney is leveraging the demand of their restaurants to lock you in to a $4000 vacation in which you'll eat at 20 of their restaurants, plan time off work, and pull your kids out of school over the course of 2 weeks. Totally different.

The way this is worded is coming across as saying that people are booking entire Disney vacations because of the dining...that enticing people to book dining at 180 days is the *cause* to them booking trips to wdw. If that's not the intent, I apologize, but after a long evening of caring for a sick DD, that's how it reads right now.

If I did read it right, I would disagree with that. No one I have ever spoken to about Disney, ever, is booking a vacation *because of* wdw's restaurants. th people I know who book at 180 do so.because they have read guide books or message boards that tell them they need to to get that character meal they really want, or that be our guest dinner. IOW, they made the decision to go.to wdw already, and are booking adrs because of research they did. They didn't book the vacation on the whole for that character meal or for BOG. I hope that.makes sense...I'm.hitting "stick a fork in me, I'm done" territory after how long tonight's been.

 

[GaryDis]

Exactly, the 180 is not arbitrary. I'm sure this date comes before the specials come out because this way, ppl take time off work, they book a package, and they get some ADRs. THEN, specials come out, and ppl are unlikely to change because they'd have to change their time off, get now harder to get ADRs. It locks ppl in to their dates. It is simply smarter for Disney to have these be booked at this early time.

I like this reasoning better than my "operational capacity" argument.

 

[flicx]

but after a long evening of caring for a sick DD,

I hope DD is feeling better tomorrow!

 

[Angel Ariel]

May I ask, which good neighbor hotels do you recommend?

We have stayed at the Tropicana INn on Harbor Blvd. and the Sheraton Park on Katella Ave. The Sheraton, we decided, is a bit too far for us. The walk at the end of a long day was not fun (about 15 mins). The hotel itself was fine though. Nothing special, but we just want a clean.place to sleep when we are off property.

We have stayed at the Tropicana twice, and have a third stay there planned for November. You can't get any closer for a good neighbor hotel, really. It's closer to the turnstiles than 2 of the Disney owned hotels. The main difference between the two was the Sheraton had indoor corridors, the Tropicana is a motel (outdoor corridors). Both were clean, comfortable places to sleep

 

[Angel Ariel]

I hope DD is feeling better tomorrow!

Thanks! I think she's finally settling down to sleep again...I hope!

 

[Bluegrrl]

Amen to that one! I never thought of it that way, and you are perfectly right. No restaurant I have ever know has or used that 180 day book out. The one thing I also dislike about fp+ is that it is, kinda unfair, if you consider it from a certain point of view. Example: with FP-, when one arrived to the park, everyone had an equal-ish chance of getting a fp. Sure, they might be a little later times that other time, but every guest who got into the parks could, rationally, get a FP. Also, there were lots of rides that loaded fast, or had double lines (looking at you PoC!) that didn't even need a fp and rarely opened their two lines. Were they still popular, well loved and high capacity rides? Yes.

Now, people from all over the world can book their FP+ from their home, clogging up ride lines and making fp+ for rides that they might not even like (Think of a once in a Lifetime person who just chooses rides like Space Mountain without knowing that is a coaster or even how scary/intense it may be. Or someone who confuses the Nemo show with the Living Seas with Nemo.) (also, I'd like to suggest the term "Once-lers" as a term for the once-in-a-lifetime tourists. Think about it. Once-lers. Or Oncelers. Whichever). So, at any rate, that's why I think the fp+ system is flawed/not really fair for people. Too many tourists given the same chance at too few spots. Does that make sense, or am I a horrible horrible Disney capitalist/snob? And, as I said first, there is something inherently decent about the ability to give a fellow tourist a FP- that you will not use at the end of the day. The look of magic/pixie dust/whatever sappy term in their eyes is so nice and decent to see.

 

[JimmyV]

Booking a restaurant is not the same as booking a vacation. A restaurant you pick some days before. A vacation you pick 6 months before. Ppl need to request time off work, school, and so on. Totally different. You're trying to compare restaurant to restaurant when really you're comparing night at a restaurant to family vacation.



The operational difference is that the in-demand restaurant is trying to sell you one over-priced meal in one normal evening. But Disney is not. Disney is leveraging the demand of their restaurants to lock you in to a $4000 vacation in which you'll eat at 20 of their restaurants, plan time off work, and pull your kids out of school over the course of 2 weeks. Totally different.

All of this reads as if one is making a reservation at their neighborhood eatery and ignores the reality that the most in demand restaurants are destination restaurants that are part of a vacation and in many instances are the whole reason for the trip in the first place. While I know people who are fortunate enough to live near and dine at The French Laundry, the vast majority of diners are there as part of a vacation and many planned their vacation around the opportunity to dine there.

It also reads as if 180 days out is the time when people book their entire vacation at WDW and ADRs are simply one of many things that they lock in at that time. But when resorts bookings are made a year (or more) out and FPs are booked 60 days out, it becomes crystal clear that 180 days out for dining is not done for either necessary operational reasons or for the benefit of the diner. WDW did not come to a screeching halt when ADRs were made 90 days out. Disney could go back to 90 days or move to 365 days and nothing in your post becomes any more or any less true.

Your "entire vacation booking" analysis fails when resort, dining, tee time and attraction reservations are all made at different points in time. If they want people to book their entire vacations, why not let people book all those things at once?

 

[DisneyPrince1982]

Booking a restaurant is not the same as booking a vacation. A restaurant you pick some days before. A vacation you pick 6 months before. Ppl need to request time off work, school, and so on. Totally different. You're trying to compare restaurant to restaurant when really you're comparing night at a restaurant to family vacation.

You're generalizing to the nth degree. As JimmyV already said above, these super fancy restaurants are often the focal points of trips for vacationers. So yes, advance planning is still required, but not 6 months because the restaurants don't take reservations that far out. 6 month dining reservations is absolute non-sense.

The operational difference is that the in-demand restaurant is trying to sell you one over-priced meal in one normal evening. But Disney is not. Disney is leveraging the demand of their restaurants to lock you in to a $4000 vacation in which you'll eat at 20 of their restaurants, plan time off work, and pull your kids out of school over the course of 2 weeks. Totally different.

You're generalizing to the nth degree again. Disney isn't locking anyone into anything by forcing you to book ADR's that far out. Often, I will go and book my dining reservations at 180 days of my "expected" vacation time (I don't care about the +10 days because that's irrelevant to the meals I'm interested in). And then I will book my vacation package and airfare at a later time, perhaps 90 days out, if I decide to go through with that trip.

So really there is no operational difference. Disney isn't locking me into any $4,000 vacation by forcing me to book dining 180 days out.

"Pull your kids out of school over the course of 2 weeks." Who takes their kids out of school for 2 weeks to go to Disney?