Yelling - is it child abuse?

[LSUmiss]

I never get his line of argument, to be honest. No, it is not acceptable to yell at another adult to get them to comply. Raising kids is a different situation. If we held them to the same standard as another adult there would be NO acceptable way of disciplining them - we can't send another adult to their room, ground them from going out with their friends, withhold their money, give them a time out, refuse to let them have dessert, or I mean whatever it is how we treat other adults have no bearing. The fact is discipline is a part of raising kids.

I think yelling in and of itself is of course not abuse. Sure it can be stressful to be yelled at, but then, no discipline is supposed to be pleasant. (And I am not a "yeller" myself so don't think I am just trying to defend my own actions lol)

Yelling is not discipline though. I work in school setting & sometimes am responsible for developing behavior intervention plans for students who need them. The plans never include yelling b/c it’s not effective discipline.

 

[Turn the Page]

One was telling parents in England that from birth you should seek consent from your child before changing their diaper. Really?

I actually know the reasoning behind that. Some argue that you are supposed to ask your child's permission to change their diaper, pick them up, or anything like that to teach them they have agency over their own bodies and that picking them up without their consent contributes to rape culture.

I wish I was kidding but no, that's an actual thing.

 

[pahoben]

Agree there is no one size fits all but again yelling is not a strategy.

Of course not but raising your voice can be an element of a successful child rearing strategy. Raising your voices should termed a tactic and strategies are composed of tactics that are elements of your strategy.

Amazing thT some people know what’s best for everyone from the day you are born until the day you die and in fine detail no less.

 

[LSUmiss]

It was a classic debate because some ideologies rested on the claim that genetics have no impact. Sorry but that is just not true and the latest data actually ties certain personality traits to specific gene locations. The following is an example of that-

“Extraversion, according to the "big 5" model,denotes people who are talkative, energetic, and assertive. And the San Diego scientists tracked it to variants in the gene WSCD2 and near gene PCDH15. Neuroticism, by contrast, is all about emotional shifts, moodiness, and anxiety, and it showed up in variants on chromosome 8p23.1 and gene L3MBTL2.”

Children are different when they are born. Optimum rearing practices should be based on these natural differences between children rather than assuming they are all the same and forcing a one size fits all approach.

Also, in grad school I studied a good bit on attachment theory. There is also research that neuropathways are developed from 0-36 mos that do have to do with attachment & environment & since they develop so early it appears as if the person were born that way. Still doesn’t mean one size fits all b/c ppl are different, but I still don’t think it’s settled why that is.

 

[LSUmiss]

Predictably this topic as any other topic on sensitive subjects do has people coming out with their opinions on the do's and don'ts and that then leads to some disagreement. Yelling is not good, okay I will conceed that but I will leave it there. Whenever this sort of topic comes up I am always reminded of Kenau Reeves character in the original Parenthood movie when he is describing his father. "You gotta have a license to get married, heck you even gotta have a license to own a dog, but any butthole can have a kid".

Finally, while I am not or do not claim to be a child rearing expert, I have a son (33) and a daughter(29) who are both married to very wonderful partners and both working and being productive members of society so I am thankful for that. I did not screw them up too bad. But this is what I do worry about, I have seen articles and interviews with "experts" in the field and they scare me. One was telling parents in England that from birth you should seek consent from your child before changing their diaper. Really? Another saying that the proper way to raise a child is completely gender neutral and let them choose the direction they want to go. I am so glad my kids are where they are because I could not deal with today's "experts"

I am troubled by things like that myself b/c it discredits more common sense “experts” who agree that things like yelling & spanking are not effective & perhaps harmful.

 

[pahoben]

Also, in grad school I studied a good bit on attachment theory. There is also research that neuropathways are developed from 0-36 mos that do have to do with attachment & environment & since they develop so early it appears as if the person were born that way. Still doesn’t mean one size fits all b/c ppl are different, but I still don’t think it’s settled why that is.

If you learned in grad school that there is no genetic component to behavior then you learned something that simply isn’t true. It is a common belief that is false.

 

[cabanafrau]

Actually all children are born with certain personality characteristics. Again some are fearful and some not, some are strong willed and some not, some are fearful and some not, etc. As much as some people would like to believe they are not a blank slate that a parent writes virtues on. For goodness sake my twins have been together from the womb on and very different personalities (both are girls). One is very strong willed and one not. One is more fearful then the other.
What data do you have that shows never raising your voice to your children results in better adults. You don’t because there is no data that shows that-it is a belief. Different kids benefit from different strategies in rearing.

I don't think yelling is a strategic parenting decision -- generally it's the antithesis of strategy. IMO systematic yelling is a default simply because a better solution hasn't been identified, and many times isn't even sought. That's a dangerous behavior model for children because they don't get to see the parent demonstrating any problem solving techniques whatsoever, merely giving up and yelling.

I'm not suggesting parents should never yell at their children. There are times it's called for IMO. I also happen to believe there's value in parents yelling at their kids out of frustration, not as the everyday, automatic, kneejerk response, but a tired, frustrated, exasperated parent yelling at their kid can be ultimately a learning/bonding experience -- if the parent is able to subsequently collect themselves and circle back to discuss the situation with their child, own up to their reasons for yelling, explain why it was wrong and calmly discuss whatever it was the child did to trigger the yelling and see if they can reach an understanding. That's at least a gallon of lemonade right there.

 

[pahoben]

I am troubled by things like that myself b/c it discredits more common sense “experts” who agree that things like yelling & spanking are not effective & perhaps harmful.

My personal experience correlates with the latest data. My fraternal twins already had different behaviors even in the womb that were evident when viewing them on ultrasound. Their activity levels and response to external stimuli were already different. Common sense is when you see something with your own eyes and believe it no matter what the “experts” say.

 

[LSUmiss]

If you learned in grad school that there is no genetic component to behavior then you learned something that simply isn’t true. It is a common belief that is false.

I learned in grad school that there are many theories & contributors.

ETA: I also think a heavy emphasis on “genetics” gives an excuse to be less culpable like it’s them not us. I do definitely think ppl are born with some level of unique personality traits, but it’s up to us how we mold that. Environment can make it better or worse depending on the situation.

 

[LSUmiss]

My personal experience correlates with the latest data. My fraternal twins already had different behaviors even in the womb that were evident when viewing them on ultrasound. Their activity levels and response to external stimuli were already different. Common sense is when you see something with your own eyes and believe it no matter what the “experts” say.

So you‘re saying that one of your children “needs” to be yelled at to comply with rules? Is that the results of your experiment you’re referring to?

 

[cabanafrau]

My personal experience correlates with the latest data. My fraternal twins already had different behaviors even in the womb that were evident when viewing them on ultrasound. Their activity levels and response to external stimuli were already different. Common sense is when you see something with your own eyes and believe it no matter what the “experts” say.

IMO there's an awful lot of wisdom and maturity in being able to recognize when one's personal experience is merely that and does not necessarily speak to the truth or experience of everyone.

Much of the data you've referenced here is simply that, data. That's not the same thing as widely accepted scientific facts.

 

[GreatLakes]

I don't think yelling is a strategic parenting decision -- generally it's the antithesis of strategy. IMO systematic yelling is a default simply because a better solution hasn't been identified, and many times isn't even sought. That's a dangerous behavior model for children because they don't get to see the parent demonstrating any problem solving techniques whatsoever, merely giving up and yelling.

I'm not suggesting parents should never yell at their children. There are times it's called for IMO. I also happen to believe there's value in parents yelling at their kids out of frustration, not as the everyday, automatic, kneejerk response, but a tired, frustrated, exasperated parent yelling at their kid can be ultimately a learning/bonding experience -- if the parent is able to subsequently collect themselves and circle back to discuss the situation with their child, own up to their reasons for yelling, explain why it was wrong and calmly discuss whatever it was the child did to trigger the yelling and see if they can reach an understanding. That's at least a gallon of lemonade right there.

I think yelling is counter productive as well. I can count on one hand the number of times I have raised my voice to anyone as an adult. I still don't think yelling is abuse. It may be a poor strategy but not abuse. Taking a look at that "comment that stuck with you" thread it seems like the things that left the deepest scars were all stated matter of factly, not yelled. Those things are more aligned with abuse in my opinion. YMMV.

 

[pahoben]

I actually know the reasoning behind that. Some argue that you are supposed to ask your child's permission to change their diaper, pick them up, or anything like that to teach them they have agency over their own bodies and that picking them up without their consent contributes to rape culture.

I wish I was kidding but no, that's an actual thing.

I wish you were kidding also. But according to some you should listen to these “experts” no matter how outlandish or ridiculous their recommendations.

 

[luvsJack]

I think yelling is counter productive as well. I can count on one hand the number of times I have raised my voice to anyone as an adult. I still don't think yelling is abuse. It may be a poor strategy but not abuse. Taking a look at that "comment that stuck with you" thread it seems like the things that left the deepest scars were all stated matter of factly, not yelled. Those things are more aligned with abuse in my opinion. YMMV.

But that doesn’t mean yelling/screaming at a child can’t be abusive. If it hurts the child, one needs to reevaluate what they are doing.

 

[cabanafrau]

I wish you were kidding also. But according to some you should listen to these “experts” no matter how outlandish or ridiculous their recommendations.

Not without evaluating the basis of their expertise and recommendations.

In regard to the scenario outlined by Turn the Page it seems reasonable to evaluate the expert recommendation against centuries of humankind diapering their young. Centuries of custom and tradition seems a sufficient sample size to hold up one end of the analysis. IMO those experts have quite the mountain to climb.

 

[Floridaman999]

I remember asking my first son if I had permission to change his diaper. He never gave me a reply so there we were. Boy was my wife angry when she got home.

 

[pahoben]

IMO there's an awful lot of wisdom and maturity in being able to recognize when one's personal experience is merely that and does not necessarily speak to the truth or experience of everyone.

Much of the data you've referenced here is simply that, data. That's not the same thing as widely accepted scientific facts.

Sigh. I am arguing against prescriptive declarations and not in support of them. The claim was that raising ones voice to your children was never productive and should never be done. i asked for any data that showed better adults resulted when parents never raised their voice. I noted that there is no such data and so this is a belief. I noted that children have different innate personality and behavioral characteristics and so not sure how anyone could say that it is never productive and always harmful. The follow on to this is that individual parents are better able to make this judgement rather than experts that subscribe to some belief system.

Sorry but you have it backwards if your statement was aimed at me.

 

[pahoben]

Sigh. I am arguing against prescriptive declarations and not in support of them. The claim was that raising ones voice to your children was never productive and should never be done. i asked for any data that showed better adults resulted when parents never raised their voice. I noted that there is no such data and so this is a belief. I noted that children have different innate personality and behavioral characteristics and so not sure how anyone could say that it is never productive and always harmful. The follow on to this is that individual parents are better able to make this judgement rather than experts that subscribe to some belief system.

Sorry but you have it backwards if your statement was aimed at me.

Sigh. I am arguing against prescriptive declarations and not in support of them. The claim was that raising ones voice to your children was never productive and should never be done. i asked for any data that showed better adults resulted when parents never raised their voice. I noted that there is no such data and so this is a belief. I noted that children have different innate personality and behavioral characteristics and so not sure how anyone could say that it is never productive and always harmful. The follow on to this is that individual parents are better able to make this judgement rather than experts that subscribe to some belief system.

Sorry but you have it backwards if your statement was aimed at me.

so thank you for saying I have a lot of wisdom and maturity.

 

[LSUmiss]

Sigh. I am arguing against prescriptive declarations and not in support of them. The claim was that raising ones voice to your children was never productive and should never be done. i asked for any data that showed better adults resulted when parents never raised their voice. I noted that there is no such data and so this is a belief. I noted that children have different innate personality and behavioral characteristics and so not sure how anyone could say that it is never productive and always harmful. The follow on to this is that individual parents are better able to make this judgement rather than experts that subscribe to some belief system.

Sorry but you have it backwards if your statement was aimed at me.

No one said “never” but you seem to be implying that yelling is an effective strategy. Yelling except for emergent safety situations is usually done out of anger & frustration. To say that a kid was born so challenging that they must be yelled at (or hit in some cases) sends a terrible message that child & often becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.

 

[cabanafrau]

Sigh. I am arguing against prescriptive declarations and not in support of them. The claim was that raising ones voice to your children was never productive and should never be done. i asked for any data that showed better adults resulted when parents never raised their voice. I noted that there is no such data and so this is a belief. I noted that children have different innate personality and behavioral characteristics and so not sure how anyone could say that it is never productive and always harmful. The follow on to this is that individual parents are better able to make this judgement rather than experts that subscribe to some belief system.

Sorry but you have it backwards if your statement was aimed at me.

Sigh? Very insightful and informative. Definitely inclines me to be intimidated into accepting information from the source because it's an indicator they must seriously mean it and I must be too dim to understand.

Actually I was responding to your comments regarding what someone else learned in grad school being incorrect and your frequent anecdotal citations of how things with your fraternal twins bear out scientific data you suggest supports ideas you agree with. Smart scientists understand that it's common for data to suggest strong support for an idea -- while recognizing that it may be valid and correct data and simultaneously not be the global answer it appears at first blush.