WWYD? Medical Profession related

[corndog]

How lovely.

I just actually prefer not to waste valuable state resources on what are essentially benign issues that society today feels the need to make someone "pay" for, for no real reason other than "because".

As I said earlier, if you choose to behave in a different manner, be prepared for the consequences of going to the hospital and not having many nurses there to care for you or a loved one because...oops...someone got a wrong medicine one time that did no damage but said nurses can't work until the 6 month long investigation is over.

I am quite sure that the average healthcare consumer is more than capable of recognizing, evaluating, reporting and treating a whole host of medical problems while all the nurses are being investigated because they gave someone Advil instead of Tylenol.

Good luck with that.

Time to say bye-bye to this thread, as it has degnerated into the realm of ridiculous because people who have no idea about the healthcare system are the ones who get to "report" us for our horrific infractions.

Yes, there was little if any damage done in this instance. But what if this particular nurse has a medication error rate 10 times the average? What if she made 10 benign mistakes only to have the 11th result in the death of a child? What if that child's death could have been prevented by people reporting these benign mistakes? How could you live with yourself for not reporting the error?

 

[Kallista]

Deleted

 

[CPT Tripss]

Yes, there was little if any damage done in this instance. But what if this particular nurse has a medication error rate 10 times the average? What if she made 10 benign mistakes only to have the 11th result in the death of a child? What if that child's death could have been prevented by people reporting these benign mistakes? How could you live with yourself for not reporting the error?

I don't really think a doc would put up with that kind of poor nurse for very long.

I admit uncertainty, but I doubt if any state has a central registry of benign medical mistakes to track poor performing medical personnel. Too bad that fear of lawsuits prevents many employers (read Doc and hospitals in this situation) from providing negative references on the kind of poor performing employee you describe.

 

[Galahad]

Well, I am an attorney, and a responsible one at that (I swear "responsible attorney" is not an oxymoron). This most certainly is medical malpractice and battery.

As I mentioned above, medical malpractice is when a mistake is made. That's what all medical malpractice litigation is. Medical malpractice is not when the doctor punches you in the stomach or takes $20 out of your wallet. It's when he makes a mistake.

This is just not true. Malpractice is a very specific thing. It is not simply "making a mistake". May states, thankfully, have procedures in place to prevent every perceived mistake from becoming yet another malpractice suit.

I will add, for the few that don't know - my wife is a high risk Obstetrician. Obstetricians get sued for batting their eyes once to often. I am intimately aware of what is malpractice and, more importantly, what is not. Nothing about what happened in the case on this thread could responsibly be called malpractice.

 

[Galahad]

I don't really think a doc would put up with that kind of poor nurse for very long.

I admit uncertainty, but I doubt if any state has a central registry of benign medical mistakes to track poor performing medical personnel. Too bad that fear of lawsuits prevents many employers (read Doc and hospitals in this situation) from providing negative references on the kind of poor performing employee you describe.

There is another issue with "negative references" for doctors. Doctors cannot, by an large, respond to them. Angie's list started "rating" doctors. Problem is, unlike a roofer or a plumber HIPAA prevents the doctor from responding. If the patient is angry at their outcome or their treatment but the patient refused to follow doctors instructions, take their meds right, or keep appointments or any one of a number of things, privacy laws prevent the doctor from defending themselves (unless, of course, it's a full blown lawsuit - which nobody wants).

 

[DawnCt1]

Dawn, healthcare workers do face a vengeful punitve aptient population every time we put on our uniforms and go to work.

If I had a nickel for every time a patient or family member threatened to sue me for some percieved slight (such as not repsonding quickly enough to their request for coffee), I wouldn't have to work.

Everyone is looking for a quick paycheck.

I agree DD. I should have put it in the present tense!

 

[corndog]

This is just not true. Malpractice is a very specific thing. It is not simply "making a mistake".

Right, it's making a mistake in the practice of medicine. I guess I should have been more specific. For instance, if a doctor is out to dinner and accidentally spills his water, that's a mistake, but it's not medical malpractice.

 

[Galahad]

Right, it's making a mistake in the practice of medicine. I guess I should have been more specific. For instance, if a doctor is out to dinner and accidentally spills his water, that's a mistake, but it's not medical malpractice.

I have to assume you refuse to see the point I'm trying to make. Making a mistake in the practice of medicine is not malpractice. Much more has to also be present for it to be malpractice. If a doctor follows standard of care, for example, it is almost never malpractice, even if something goes badly and the patient is harmed. Life is full of risks. Patients are not absolved of all risk just because they are patients and doctors don't assume liability for all outcomes just because they are doctors.

 

[corndog]

I have to assume you refuse to see the point I'm trying to make. Making a mistake in the practice of medicine is not malpractice. Much more has to also be present for it to be malpractice. If a doctor follows standard of care, for example, it is almost never malpractice, even if something goes badly and the patient is harmed. Life is full of risks. Patients are not absolved of all risk just because they are patients and doctors don't assume liability for all outcomes just because they are doctors.

I didn't care to get into standard of care stuff here. I think it's just too much. Suffice it to say that it is a mistake to not follow the standard of care. Further, medication errors such as this would never meet the standard of care.

 

[CPT Tripss]

There is another issue with "negative references" for doctors. Doctors cannot, by an large, respond to them. Angie's list started "rating" doctors. Problem is, unlike a roofer or a plumber HIPAA prevents the doctor from responding. If the patient is angry at their outcome or their treatment but the patient refused to follow doctors instructions, take their meds right, or keep appointments or any one of a number of things, privacy laws prevent the doctor from defending themselves (unless, of course, it's a full blown lawsuit - which nobody wants).

Maybe I wasn't clear enough. I wasn't thinking of the anonymous negative reviews of docs.

Here is what I had in mind - think a phone call between two docs (or hospital HR types or office administrators) in the same area so they know of each other . . .

Dr. A - hey there doc B, I'm calling about Nurse D. Her resume says she worked for you.

Dr. B - that's right she did.

Dr. A - what can you tell be about her work for you?

Dr. B - she worked for my practice from ___ to ___.

Dr. A - Okay . . . but how was her work? Was she dependable? Were her professional skills good?

Dr. B - I can't go into any detail about that. She worked for my practice from ___ to ___.

What does a doc or a hospital in need of a nurse do when this kind of "reference" is what they get for all the applicants that were interviewed and "passed muster?"

 

[Pea-n-Me]

Well I hope when the OP, tinatark, returns, she'll perhaps have a little more information on what exactly happened. If it were my DD (who has not yet had the vaccine), I would want to know.

I still don't see that anyone's real concerned about whether a) the doctor ordered the gardasil and the nurse gave what was ordered or b) the doc ordered the depo and the gardasil was given in error. It seems to me (and I've reread the OP several times) that it's being assumed the nurse made an error, but we don't really know that for sure without knowing what the order was.

Nurses don't just give medications without a doctor's order. So something had to have been ordered. Which was it?

 

[Pea-n-Me]

Nurses make errors every day. But, doctors take responsibility for their mistakes.

Way overgeneralized. Both make mistakes. Some take responsibility, some don't - in both professions.

 

[princess momma]

Well I hope when the OP, tinatark, returns, she'll perhaps have a little more information on what exactly happened. If it were my DD (who has not yet had the vaccine), I would want to know.

I still don't see that anyone's real concerned about whether a) the doctor ordered the gardasil and the nurse gave what was ordered or b) the doc ordered the depo and the gardasil was given in error. It seems to me (and I've reread the OP several times) that it's being assumed the nurse made an error, but we don't really know that for sure without knowing what the order was.

Nurses don't just give medications without a doctor's order. So something had to have been ordered. Which was it?

Totally agree with you!

I don't see how an error like this could have happened. The nurse looked at the order for Depo, got out Gardasil, gave Gardasil, then documented the lot # & manufacturer for Gardasil? Seems weird to me. I think it's possible something else happened here. The doctor may have ordered it, the girl may have consented to it, and the Depo may have been inadvertantly forgotten.

If the mother of this girl feels like reporting it, I can't blame her. I'm not sure what I'd do in this situation. I'm not sure they were legally obligated to inform the patient of this error, but they did. It doesn't seem like they're trying to hide anything. I think I might be satisfied with that.

 

[luvmy3]

Totally agree with you!

I don't see how an error like this could have happened. The nurse looked at the order for Depo, got out Gardasil, gave Gardasil, then documented the lot # & manufacturer for Gardasil? Seems weird to me. I think it's possible something else happened here. The doctor may have ordered it, the girl may have consented to it, and the Depo may have been inadvertantly forgotten.

If the mother of this girl feels like reporting it, I can't blame her. I'm not sure what I'd do in this situation. I'm not sure they were legally obligated to inform the patient of this error, but they did. It doesn't seem like they're trying to hide anything. I think I might be satisfied with that.

I know you are saying what you think, but can any nurse or doctor here confirm if this is actually true?

 

[java]

She was given a safe vaccine with no ill effects. The physician informed the parent of the mistake and apologized.

That's debatable. but we're not allowed to debate here anymore. Personally, I would be upset. My daughter has had reactions to vaccines(stopped breathing) so I would be livid. Also why I am ultra sensitive to "safe vaccines".

I think you should make sure that this is noted on someone's file(be it the doctor or the nurse I don't know who ordered the shot?)

After my incident with my daughter I ask to have the lot numbers of each vaccine my daughter gets. And check that she is getting the shot she is supposed to be getting. I'm just an extra set of eyes. And the lot number was the first thing the FDA asked me when they called about her incident. So I figure it's important.

 

[DawnCt1]

Well I hope when the OP, tinatark, returns, she'll perhaps have a little more information on what exactly happened. If it were my DD (who has not yet had the vaccine), I would want to know.

I still don't see that anyone's real concerned about whether a) the doctor ordered the gardasil and the nurse gave what was ordered or b) the doc ordered the depo and the gardasil was given in error. It seems to me (and I've reread the OP several times) that it's being assumed the nurse made an error, but we don't really know that for sure without knowing what the order was.

Nurses don't just give medications without a doctor's order. So something had to have been ordered. Which was it?

I chimed in a few pages back, but then, we all know when it comes to mistakes, its "always the nurse". Actually, a little off topic but one of my friend's DD worked full time as an office worker in a multi physician office practice. One of the physicians returned an xray report to a file before a followup xray was ordered, never mentioned to the DD and when the patient's physician saw it, the first MD blamed the DD. She was fired. She never even handled the chart. She was able to get unemployment, even though the MD challenged it based on "misconduct". The office manager came to her unemployment hearing, apologized to her and told the hearing officer that she never did anything wrong. Sometimes the "buck gets passed unfairly".

 

[tinatark]

Well I hope when the OP, tinatark, returns, she'll perhaps have a little more information on what exactly happened. If it were my DD (who has not yet had the vaccine), I would want to know.

I still don't see that anyone's real concerned about whether a) the doctor ordered the gardasil and the nurse gave what was ordered or b) the doc ordered the depo and the gardasil was given in error. It seems to me (and I've reread the OP several times) that it's being assumed the nurse made an error, but we don't really know that for sure without knowing what the order was.

Nurses don't just give medications without a doctor's order. So something had to have been ordered. Which was it?

They made an appointment for the Depo shot (it was either her 2nd or 3rd time), she went in and was given the Gardasil. We are still not clear on whether the doctor ordered the Gardasil - but the file states the patient was in for Depo and given Gardasil.

As far as knowing where the shot is supposed to be given, I'm not sure that I would remember 3 months later whether I had a shot in the arm or the hip.

I think the best solution is for medical professionals to check and double check, verify with the patients what is to be given.

As far as lawsuits and financial liability - this thread came to life on its' own regarding that! My concern was for reporting it to the appropriate professional agency - so there is some type of record of this error. Like another Corndog said, "Yes, there was little if any damage done in this instance. But what if this particular nurse has a medication error rate 10 times the average? What if she made 10 benign mistakes only to have the 11th result in the death of a child? What if that child's death could have been prevented by people reporting these benign mistakes? How could you live with yourself for not reporting the error?"

Interesting replies from all! Thank you!

 

[DawnCt1]

That's debatable. but we're not allowed to debate here anymore. Personally, I would be upset. My daughter has had reactions to vaccines(stopped breathing) so I would be livid. Also why I am ultra sensitive to "safe vaccines".

I think you should make sure that this is noted on someone's file(be it the doctor or the nurse I don't know who ordered the shot?)

After my incident with my daughter I ask to have the lot numbers of each vaccine my daughter gets. And check that she is getting the shot she is supposed to be getting. I'm just an extra set of eyes. And the lot number was the first thing the FDA asked me when they called about her incident. So I figure it's important.

Actually, there are BIG RED STICKERS that go on the front of patient records that list allergies and drug sensitivities.

 

[npmommie]

I have to assume you refuse to see the point I'm trying to make. Making a mistake in the practice of medicine is not malpractice. Much more has to also be present for it to be malpractice. If a doctor follows standard of care, for example, it is almost never malpractice, even if something goes badly and the patient is harmed. Life is full of risks. Patients are not absolved of all risk just because they are patients and doctors don't assume liability for all outcomes just because they are doctors.

well said.

I didn't care to get into standard of care stuff here. I think it's just too much. Suffice it to say that it is a mistake to not follow the standard of care. Further, medication errors such as this would never meet the standard of care.

but standard of care is key to this. in the chart did the doctor write depo or guardisil? if the doctor wrote depo, why did the nurse give guardisil?
I know that when i worked as an NP in a practice my sheet that listed my patients for the day had why they were coming in, what they told the secretary when they booked the appt.
did this error originate there? did the secretary mistakenly note guardisil on the daily appt sheet? and since it is a vaccine that teens are getting, nothing was questioned?
lots of questions on this scenario

They made an appointment for the Depo shot (it was either her 2nd or 3rd time), she went in and was given the Gardasil. We are still not clear on whether the doctor ordered the Gardasil - but the file states the patient was in for Depo and given Gardasil.

As far as knowing where the shot is supposed to be given, I'm not sure that I would remember 3 months later whether I had a shot in the arm or the hip.

I think the best solution is for medical professionals to check and double check, verify with the patients what is to be given.

As far as lawsuits and financial liability - this thread came to life on its' own regarding that! My concern was for reporting it to the appropriate professional agency - so there is some type of record of this error. Like another Corndog said, "Yes, there was little if any damage done in this instance. But what if this particular nurse has a medication error rate 10 times the average? What if she made 10 benign mistakes only to have the 11th result in the death of a child? What if that child's death could have been prevented by people reporting these benign mistakes? How could you live with yourself for not reporting the error?"

Interesting replies from all! Thank you!

my highlight in red is key. patients should always verify what they are getting, what med, what procedure, etc etc etc.
when we go to the pedi, the nurse always says what vax they are going to get, then i see the chart, i see the lot number , i sign it, i see the bottle itself. its all about checking and rechecking which is always a good thing.
we have to advocate for ourselves and our loved ones always. and its not about not trusting our healthcare providers, its about making sure you are getting what you are supposed to get etc........

 

[princess momma]

I know you are saying what you think, but can any nurse or doctor here confirm if this is actually true?

It's not something I think, it's something I know. Med errors are not always necessarily reported to the patient. The legalities of it are pretty complicated and there's no clear cut answer on whether it's right or wrong. Ethically I believe it's wrong, but legally....well that's about as clear as mud.