WWYD? DD's Friends and Their Lack of Education.

[golfgal]

In the quoted quote--teacups challenged golfgal's children to test on the material TEACUPS was teaching. Golfgal accepted a challenge to a standardized test. The two are quite different and Golfgal missed the point entirely. Say TEACUPS is teaching her children Latin, Poetry, Physics (in elem or middle school as a stand alone subject)---as an example---she was challeging Golfgal's kids to test on those subjects specifically. Not a random assessment of what Golfgal's state determines that a 5th grader should know.

Actually, if you read what I said I said I would pit my kids against her's in ANY testing situation-I never said Standardized tests. I did not miss the point but you certainly are. There is NO accountability for homeschoolers and there should be to avoid situations like the OP is talking about.

 

[Sleestack]

 

[carmiedog]

Not sure what I would do. I'm a strong supporter of homeschooling done right. I know some great homeschooling families both IRL and online. But, I think there needs to be some kind of regulation/assessments to ensure that it's effective for the child. Here, the parent has to submit curriculum to the Superintendent at the beginning of each year. It's just a safeguard towards making sure the kids are really being taught at home.

 

[carmiedog]

I've never seen a basic standardized test for elementary grades that even covers American History. All the ones I've seen test basic math skills and problem solving, reading comprehension, listening comprehension, etc.

Part of my job for our schools is checking over the standardized test booklets for 2nd graders to erase doodles, make sure all the bubbles are colored in correctly, etc. before they're machine graded. Yes, they do have some basic American History questions. ie "Who was President when...?"

I haven't read all this thread, so I'm not sure how this originally came up.

 

[LisaR]

Actually, if you read what I said I said I would pit my kids against her's in ANY testing situation-I never said Standardized tests. I did not miss the point but you certainly are. There is NO accountability for homeschoolers and there should be to avoid situations like the OP is talking about.

How will accountability help avoid these types of situations? The public schools have accountability and kids fall through the cracks all the time. Some parents stink at homeschooling their children just like some public schools stink at educating children. Accountability won't change that.

In the best school districts in our nation, only 75% of students pass the standardized tests. 25% are failing. That doesn't take into account the schools where more than 50% of the student body fails the test. Year after year some of the same schools continue to have half their students fail. They work hard to improve but many still fail. Accountability hasn't fixed the problem and it won't for the family that the OP talked about. If those kids are put back in the school system, there is a good chance they won't do their homework or study for tests because the mom won't care. It won't fix the problem.

 

[npmommie]

UG! I homeschool... and could not imagine this! Oh, it happens and I have seen it, too. Why in the world do people homeschool if they are not willing to put the time in? It's a LOT of hard work, and I'll tell you, it takes nearly 100% of my time. Planning, shopping (for curriculum and supplies) teaching, grading, field trips, special classes.... it never ends. But, I love it! My kids love it!
Ok, to your daughters friend. They do online schooling, which in my state would mean they are actually public schooled from home (in many cases) and working with a public school teacher. Do you know if this is the case? I wish I could give you more details so you would know, but I dont use an online program, I really homeschool the nitty gritty way .
In her defense: Many times homeschoolers will teach at odd times and even in odd ways. Do they know other things that maybe your girls dont know, becasue they are learning different curriculum? I mean, that could be the case.
If it were any other poster I'd wonder if they were being nosy and anti homeschool (many are), but since it's you I know you really think this is a problem and that these girls are not getting the proper help.
Another homeschool friend of mine met someone last week who didnt want her 11 year dd old to go back to public school because she does all the dishes and laundry! My friend wanted to slap her!
I have to add that some of my neighbors think I am a crappy mom because they see my homeshooled kids outside during the school day. My kids get a recess from 10:30-11:00 . What? They homeschool so they shouldnt get play time? You'd think maybe those nosy biddies would stop and wonder why it's the exact same time everyday. Just plain stupid.
Luvsjack, I hope you can figure something out. Do what your heart tells you.
If these were public schooled kids would you consider stepping in?

I agree it is hard work. I am constantly planning or doing something related to homeschool. except when i take a dis break. LOL
and yes we HS at odd times. my dh works saturdays, so we do school on saturdays so that on mondays we are off when he is off

we also have been known to do our lesson in the evening if we have a field trip or another activity that takes up the majority of the day.

They dont take a PE, music, swim, gymnastics, horseback or any other lesson????

I personally am against too many homeschool laws. I am against testing simply because in public school they teach-to-the-test. In homeschool we do not. We teach a wide variety but not exactly (usually) what they test to. That isnt fair. And I dont want them telling me what curriculum to use, because my kids get a better education my way than they did at the public school. When someone comes up with a fair way to do it.. I'd be all for it.

No matter how many laws, you cant teach a stupid lazy parent not to be stupid and lazy.

Maybe the mom is not stupid and lazy but overwhelmed, and doesn't know where to turn for help? is there anything else going on in the house?
any other stressors that could be keeping her from dealing appropriately with the situation at hand?
I would talk to the mom if you can.

There may be a couple things that are going on. 1.The mom has stated she can't get the girls to do anything. 2. the mom have maybe just given up because she lacks disciplining them and they act a fool. 3. Are these girls and your girls the only ones in the neighborhood, because if they can call and do the things they are doing, they can go out in the neighborhood and play with other kids.
I would talk to the Mom and tell her what all is going on with the texting and what her girls are saying. They say it takes a village to raise a child. And sometimes you have to help raise.guide an adult as well.

The reality of the situation is that there really is NOTHING that you can do. You can talk to the mom if you want and are comfortable with but that is it.

If your state has very little rules ( I haven't looked them up but many do) and she is following the laws then CPS will have no ability to do anything. They can show up and ask to come in but the Mom can just say no. As long as Mom is following the homeschooling laws in your state then case is closed. Unless they suspect physical abuse/neglect there is nothing they can do. Educational neglect is very hard to prove if the homeschooling laws are being followed.

The school can't do anything. If she is following the laws then legally they aren't able to step in or even call and check on the kids. There are some very strong groups that will back this mom with lawyers and assistance if CPS or the school district comes knocking.

If Mom figures out or even thinks you are the one that called then these kids have just lost the one contact that they have.

Sorry, but this is the reality. I homeschooled for several years and as teacups said, it is a Full Time job with a whole lot of overtime to do it right. The ones that screw it up for the rest of us really burn my buns, but there is just nothing you can do about them. It is a very delicate balance between not making things difficult for the legitimate homeschoolers and making sure no kids fall through the cracks.

Talk to the mom if you think you can. Talk to the kids and be their support and keep them in your prayers.

I agree. In our state parents simply have to turn in grades on a regular basis, usually once a quarter. They don't have to prove the grades, back them up with anything, just turn them in. They have to do a standardized test each year but again, they just have to turn in that they took the test, no proof that they did, just submit a piece of paper saying the kids passed the test. It is REALLY, REALLY sad. At bare minimum homeschoolers should have to take a standardized test administered by an outside source. Unfortunately OP there is nothing you can do. Even calling CPS is not going to help anything.

we have to submit our education plan each year, outlining what subjects we are covering and what materials we are using. and at end of year I do a progress report out lining everything we did and what was accomplished etc.
we can also choose to submit work samples or submit test results.

OP~Let me say first that if someone who claims to be homeschooling and ISN'T following the laws of their state, then they are NOT homeschooling. Homeschooling requires the obedience of law at all times, if not, they have broken the law.Just like when someone spits their gum onto the ground, they've committed a crime. That being said, the type of education recieved by a law abiding homeschool family is of no concern to you or anyone else. Just b/c a child is a certain age doesn't automatically mean that the child is in a certain grade or should be at a certain level academically. The fact that you are not in their home or even home yourself during school hours tells me that you really haven't any idea of what goes on there. Actually, homeschooling doesn't necessarily have to even take place in what society considers "normal school hours". So the oldest daughter doesn't want to be in the teen group....who cares? Why are you supposing something is wrong b/c of that? There are many early teenaged children that feel socially "safe" staying with a group they are familiar with. Some people don't like change. I think early teenaged girls have enough problems to deal with at that age without someone telling them that they should be with a certain group b/c of their age....maybe they are afraid of the new situation, maybe they are self concious about how they look...there are so many reasons. As for the children themselves telling you things, I've had children tell me the sky was orange. Children have been known to lie as well. Maybe the kids don't like homeschooling and would rather be in a public school, maybe that's why they say things negative about what they do/don't do and what they are/aren't learning.

This is the part of homeschooling that drives me nuts. If you are doing your job and teaching at or above grade level your kids will have NO problem passing ANY standardized testing even if you don't teach to the test. If you are doing your job having a standardized test, administered outside of the homeschool family, should be NO threat AND it will prevent cases like the OP is talking about. Why is that so threatening to homeschool families?

If a homeschooled child can't pass a standardized test, barring and major learning disabilities, then something needs to be done to make sure those kids are getting an education-either having a tutor come in for x time or requiring the students to go back into the school system or something.

because some kids just are not good test takers. doesn't mean they don't know the material and are not up to speed, but maybe they don't test well.
I personally don't hold much value in test taking. I prefer real life examples of what the kids know, thinking outside the box of a test has its merits too.

That's a good idea! Dd has to do a project for reading every few weeks and we do those on the weekends. She will also be doing projects in math and history and the dreaded science project. When they come over I could just ask for them to "help" us and we can all work on that together. Also, we have been planning on taking dd to some museums and the planetarium in Jackson and she loves going to the aquarium in NOLA. Maybe we can start inviting them along. It would do them good to get to go some where like that and it wouldn't hurt if they all learned something in the meantime.

this is a great idea to include the girls. and again , I would talk to the mom in a non threatening way so she doesn't get defensive.

here are some links the mom may find useful, maybe you could pass them on

http://www.mhea.net/

http://hslda.org/hs/state/MS/default.asp

 

[golfgal]

How will accountability help avoid these types of situations? The public schools have accountability and kids fall through the cracks all the time. Some parents stink at homeschooling their children just like some public schools stink at educating children. Accountability won't change that.

In the best school districts in our nation, only 75% of students pass the standardized tests. 25% are failing. That doesn't take into account the schools where more than 50% of the student body fails the test. Year after year some of the same schools continue to have half their students fail. They work hard to improve but many still fail. Accountability hasn't fixed the problem and it won't for the family that the OP talked about. If those kids are put back in the school system, there is a good chance they won't do their homework or study for tests because the mom won't care. It won't fix the problem.

Well our schools must be better than the best because we have 96% of our kids pass the standardized tests for NCLB and for our state standards (2 different tests). Our school does NOT teach to the test. They do spend 2 weeks before the test teaching some test taking strategies during English class--which is helpful for every test so not a bad thing to do.

npmommie--I am sure you have to submit all of your lesson plans, etc. but that doesn't mean people actually use them, nor do you have to show any example of what kids do, how well they score on anything, etc. Yes, you have to turn in grades but you don't have to prove that the kids actually got those grades. I am really glad you don't feel tests are necessary and that "thinking outside the box" is more important than learning hard facts but some day the ARE going to have to know what 100x200 is and if someone isn't being taught that then there should be some accountability.

No, not every child does well in school and yes there are bad schools out there but again, there is still NO accountability and no recourse for parents that are refusing to educate their children at all like the OP. I also know several other families that are doing the exact same thing while "homeschooling". What about those poor kids that can't read, do simple math, etc. Who is fighting for them and who is going to take care of them when they can't even get a job at McDonalds after they 'graduate"?

 

[npmommie]

npmommie--I am sure you have to submit all of your lesson plans, etc. but that doesn't mean people actually use them, nor do you have to show any example of what kids do, how well they score on anything, etc. Yes, you have to turn in grades but you don't have to prove that the kids actually got those grades. I am really glad you don't feel tests are necessary and that "thinking outside the box" is more important than learning hard facts but some day the ARE going to have to know what 100x200 is and if someone isn't being taught that then there should be some accountability.

I actually use the plans I submit
I go thru it periodically to see where we are and what we need to accomplish.
I dont turn in grades, I write a progress report which describes our year, everything we have done and how we accomplished it.

well they already know what 100x200 is ( even the 6 yr old who can do multiplication in his head )

 

[lovetoscrap]

One other thing that I have been wondering about with this thread is if the Mother may be suffering from depression. The descriptions of her not being involved with the girls, not going out of the house, not wanting to pick them up, retreating into the bedroom to watch TV at night, and the general lack of motivation make me think this could be a bigger thing than a neglectful mom, but one that needs some professional help.

I just mention that because that is another thing that a pastor could probably look for and try to help her with.

 

[LisaR]

Well our schools must be better than the best because we have 96% of our kids pass the standardized tests for NCLB and for our state standards (2 different tests). Our school does NOT teach to the test. They do spend 2 weeks before the test teaching some test taking strategies during English class--which is helpful for every test so not a bad thing to do.

npmommie--I am sure you have to submit all of your lesson plans, etc. but that doesn't mean people actually use them, nor do you have to show any example of what kids do, how well they score on anything, etc. Yes, you have to turn in grades but you don't have to prove that the kids actually got those grades. I am really glad you don't feel tests are necessary and that "thinking outside the box" is more important than learning hard facts but some day the ARE going to have to know what 100x200 is and if someone isn't being taught that then there should be some accountability.

No, not every child does well in school and yes there are bad schools out there but again, there is still NO accountability and no recourse for parents that are refusing to educate their children at all like the OP. I also know several other families that are doing the exact same thing while "homeschooling". What about those poor kids that can't read, do simple math, etc. Who is fighting for them and who is going to take care of them when they can't even get a job at McDonalds after they 'graduate"?

I think that is fantastic that your individual school is doing so well on standardized tests. Unfortunately, your overall state of Minnesota can not say the same thing. The state averages for math are horrendous. Only 41% of 11th graders passed the test. Math and reading scores for your state were all under the 75% I originally quoted in my post above with the exception of 3rd graders. Where is the accountability? Where is the recourse? Should those 11th graders be forced to homeschool because the schools are failing them? Should the schools pay private tutors for all of those 11th graders because the school isn't doing their job?

I don't know what should happen to kids that aren't getting the proper education. It happens in every single school setting be it public, private, charter or homeschool. Standardized tests aren't going to keeps kids from falling through the cracks. It is wishful thinking.

 

[Sleestack]

Well our schools must be better than the best because we have 96% of our kids pass the standardized tests for NCLB and for our state standards (2 different tests).

...your overall state of Minnesota can not say the same thing. The state averages for math are horrendous. Only 41% of 11th graders passed the test. Math and reading scores for your state were all under the 75% I originally quoted in my post above with the exception of 3rd graders. Where is the accountability? Where is the recourse? Should those 11th graders be forced to homeschool because the schools are failing them? Should the schools pay private tutors for all of those 11th graders because the school isn't doing their job?

Ouch. That hadda hurt.

 

[golfgal]

I think that is fantastic that your individual school is doing so well on standardized tests. Unfortunately, your overall state of Minnesota can not say the same thing. The state averages for math are horrendous. Only 41% of 11th graders passed the test. Math and reading scores for your state were all under the 75% I originally quoted in my post above with the exception of 3rd graders. Where is the accountability? Where is the recourse? Should those 11th graders be forced to homeschool because the schools are failing them? Should the schools pay private tutors for all of those 11th graders because the school isn't doing their job?

I don't know what should happen to kids that aren't getting the proper education. It happens in every single school setting be it public, private, charter or homeschool. Standardized tests aren't going to keeps kids from falling through the cracks. It is wishful thinking.

I don't know where you get your information but your numbers are wrong http://ww2.startribune.com/dynamic/no_child/district.php

Also, if you break down the scores you will find that the vast majority of the students DID pass the tests but since the test has to be given to EVERY child there are going to be scores of kids that will NEVER be able to pass the test and they skew the results--for every state. NCLB is a JOKE and everyone intelligent person knows that and if that is what you are using for a benchmark for a school doing well or not then go right ahead.

No one said that there aren't some kids that fall through the cracks but as the system stands now ALL of the homeschool kids could fall through the cracks and NO ONE would know it. Again, there is ZERO accountability for homeschooling-which is totally different then falling through the cracks. There is a lot of accountability for the public schools through tests, teachers, administration and so forth. I also will put it out there that the majority of what is wrong with schools does not lie with the schools and is more the fault of parents.

 

[LisaR]

I don't know where you get your information but your numbers are wrong http://ww2.startribune.com/dynamic/no_child/district.php

Also, if you break down the scores you will find that the vast majority of the students DID pass the tests but since the test has to be given to EVERY child there are going to be scores of kids that will NEVER be able to pass the test and they skew the results--for every state. NCLB is a JOKE and everyone intelligent person knows that and if that is what you are using for a benchmark for a school doing well or not then go right ahead.

No one said that there aren't some kids that fall through the cracks but as the system stands now ALL of the homeschool kids could fall through the cracks and NO ONE would know it. Again, there is ZERO accountability for homeschooling-which is totally different then falling through the cracks. There is a lot of accountability for the public schools through tests, teachers, administration and so forth. I also will put it out there that the majority of what is wrong with schools does not lie with the schools and is more the fault of parents.

This is where I got my numbers from:

http://www.farmington.k12.mn.us/learning/mca.htm

The article is about Farmington, Minnesota but shows the entire state totals.
It also shows that Farmington needs some major help since only 31% of 11th graders were able to pass the math section. That is up from 22.8% in 2008.

My point isn't to pick on the state of Minnesota or the city of Farmington. The point is that the there is accountability in place in the school systems and they still fail. Testing homeschooled students isn't the answer. I don't have the answer but I know testing is not it.

 

[npmommie]

No one said that there aren't some kids that fall through the cracks but as the system stands now ALL of the homeschool kids could fall through the cracks and NO ONE would know it. Again, there is ZERO accountability for homeschooling-which is totally different then falling through the cracks. There is a lot of accountability for the public schools through tests, teachers, administration and so forth. I also will put it out there that the majority of what is wrong with schools does not lie with the schools and is more the fault of parents.

First of all this is not true, many states have very strict laws on homeschooling and what parents have to do.
so to say there is zero accountability is wrong.

the second thing I will point out is there is 100% accountability as a parent. I am 100 percent accountable for homeschooling my kids. Do I want to fail them. NO. I am accountable to them. They are the most important thing to me, I would not jeopardize their learning in any way. And I am confident enough to say I truly believe the vast majority of homeschooling parents feel the same way I do. We all want the best for our kids, and we want to do what we can to give them the best start, the best education.
No one else is as invested in seeing my kids succeed as us their parents.

 

[golfgal]

First of all this is not true, many states have very strict laws on homeschooling and what parents have to do.
so to say there is zero accountability is wrong.

the second thing I will point out is there is 100% accountability as a parent. I am 100 percent accountable for homeschooling my kids. Do I want to fail them. NO. I am accountable to them. They are the most important thing to me, I would not jeopardize their learning in any way. And I am confident enough to say I truly believe the vast majority of homeschooling parents feel the same way I do. We all want the best for our kids, and we want to do what we can to give them the best start, the best education.
No one else is as invested in seeing my kids succeed as us their parents.

Yes, you are perfectly responsible and YOU DO what you are supposed to but there are many, many, many homeschooling parents that don't. There are many, many, many, many parents that don't give a rip what their kids do for school, homeschooled or public schools. Explain the problem the OP is having if there is accountability with homeschooling, which is what this whole thread is about, not that you are doing what you are supposed to so you assume everyone else is.

I know of one home school family that has 7 children. The youngest 4 can't read, at all, because they 'aren't interested in reading' so mom doesn't make them learn. The youngest is 10, well past reading age. NONE of the kids can do even simple math because "what do they need math for-they aren't going to be math teachers'. I have seen many, many homeschooled kids come into the high school so far behind because their parents didn't feel it was necessary to teach them science or math or basic English skills because they were too busy teaching them about how grass grows or something really important.

As for strict laws, no they aren't. Yes, you have to turn in your curriculum, etc. but you still don't have to prove that your child did the work. I know YOU do what you are supposed to do but not everyone does. These are NOT strict laws, not even close.

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

Actually, if you read what I said I said I would pit my kids against her's in ANY testing situation-I never said Standardized tests. I did not miss the point but you certainly are. There is NO accountability for homeschoolers and there should be to avoid situations like the OP is talking about.

Your statement as a generalization is false--perhaps in sometimes it is true. But there are some states that are strict and there are others with a happy medium that holds homeschoolers accountable without as much strictness as your require.

Perhaps you should research the laws in all 50 states before commenting.

Perhaps you can even look at the vastly different educational requirements in each state--and note that even Public schools have different requirements including compulsary ages of attendance and high school graduation requirements.

Your attitude is quite condescending for situations that you have neither experienced nor researched thoroughly. Anectdotal evidence is not sufficient enough to prove your thesis.

I am not sure what your hangup is on homeschoolers and "proof". I have to maintain a portfolio. Are you suggesting that I might have reason to "lie"?

That's pretty harsh. About as harsh as that teachers really can't "prove" the student did their own homework. Test or no test--it doesn't "prove" a child actually "did" the work or those suprisingly way advanced for their years science fair projects.

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

No one said that there aren't some kids that fall through the cracks but as the system stands now ALL of the homeschool kids could fall through the cracks and NO ONE would know it.

That is hyperbole and if you did your research, you would know this. But it seems you are bent on your biases.

 

[dis-happy]

To note: all the accountability in the public school system hasn't helped the 1.2 million kids a year that drop out each year.



Took a look at MN's SAT scores as that was the national test my homeschooled dd took.

"In Minnesota, about 7 percent of college-bound seniors take the SAT compared to 46 percent nationally. The ACT test is the most commonly taken test in Minnesota.
Typical SAT test takers in Minnesota are students considering application to selective out-of-state colleges and national scholarship programs. Minnesota SAT test takers also had a mean high school grade point average of 3.68 and 76 percent ranked in the top 20 percent of their high school."

So, mainly the best of the best college bound MN high schoolers took the SAT in order to get into selective colleges. Thought it was interesting that the MN SAT scores have been FALLING the past 5 years. Also, the averages in all three SAT areas are lower (by about 100 pts) than my homeschooled child's scores.



I've never pushed reading at a young age (although one child taught herself at age 4). One of my favorite books is "Better Late Than Early" by Moore. One reason I would never put my child into typical school is the insanity of pushing too much academics at earlier (and earlier) ages.



Maybe formal education is over-rated. Bill Gates didn't graduate from college. Warren Buffett dropped out of MBA school. Didn't stop them from becoming numbers 1 and 2 on the Forbes 400.

 

[scottishduffy]

While many homeschoolers can do well, there is also a large sect of parents who don't give a rip about their kids.

The test scored sound impressive but that most likely only includes the kids from the families who homeschool properly. I am willing to bet that the children of families who 'unschool' or whose parents do not put forth the effort may not be taking those standardized tests.

I assume the majority of homeschooling families to be caring parents who truly strive to educate their children. Sadly, I have known those who give homeschooling a bad name and the children whose lack of basic skills haunted their adult lives and dashed dreams.

 

[Sleestack]

I know of one home school family that has 7 children. The youngest 4 can't read, at all, because they 'aren't interested in reading' so mom doesn't make them learn. The youngest is 10, well past reading age. NONE of the kids can do even simple math because "what do they need math for-they aren't going to be math teachers'. I have seen many, many homeschooled kids come into the high school so far behind because their parents didn't feel it was necessary to teach them science or math or basic English skills because they were too busy teaching them about how grass grows or something really important.

.

I highly doubt every statement made here.

I see that some people hate homeschoolers, and will say anything they can pull put of their hat.
Some sound very afraid of homeschoolers and from what some of the others are saying here, some should be. I would think someone who is trying to advocate the public system would have a little fact behind their rant.


prej⋅u⋅dice  1. an unfavorable opinion or feeling formed beforehand or without knowledge, thought, or reason.