WWYD? DD's Friends and Their Lack of Education.

[redlight]

Your right, I would just hope the OP would keep CPS in the front of her mind if needed.

I agree.

 

[lovetoscrap]

The reality of the situation is that there really is NOTHING that you can do. You can talk to the mom if you want and are comfortable with but that is it.

If your state has very little rules ( I haven't looked them up but many do) and she is following the laws then CPS will have no ability to do anything. They can show up and ask to come in but the Mom can just say no. As long as Mom is following the homeschooling laws in your state then case is closed. Unless they suspect physical abuse/neglect there is nothing they can do. Educational neglect is very hard to prove if the homeschooling laws are being followed.

The school can't do anything. If she is following the laws then legally they aren't able to step in or even call and check on the kids. There are some very strong groups that will back this mom with lawyers and assistance if CPS or the school district comes knocking.

If Mom figures out or even thinks you are the one that called then these kids have just lost the one contact that they have.

Sorry, but this is the reality. I homeschooled for several years and as teacups said, it is a Full Time job with a whole lot of overtime to do it right. The ones that screw it up for the rest of us really burn my buns, but there is just nothing you can do about them. It is a very delicate balance between not making things difficult for the legitimate homeschoolers and making sure no kids fall through the cracks.

Talk to the mom if you think you can. Talk to the kids and be their support and keep them in your prayers.

 

[lovetoscrap]

Just want to add that I just quickly looked up the laws for your state, OP. The only requirement is that the parent has to register each year. That is it. No testing or curriculum oversite. In fact the law specifically says:

“It is not the intention of this section to impair the primary right and the obligation of the parent ... to choose the proper education and training” for their children, and nothing in this section shall be construed to grant the State of Mississippi “authority to control, manage or supervise” the private education of children. “And this section shall never be construed so as to grant, by implication or otherwise, any right or authority to any state agency or other entity to control, manage, supervise, provide for or affect the operation, management, program, curriculum, admissions policy or discipline of any such school or home instruction program.”

I bolded the really important parts. Schools and CPS can not do anything in this case as long as she has registered. And if she hasn't registered all she has to do is send in the paperwork as soon as they ask.

 

[golfgal]

The reality of the situation is that there really is NOTHING that you can do. You can talk to the mom if you want and are comfortable with but that is it.

If your state has very little rules ( I haven't looked them up but many do) and she is following the laws then CPS will have no ability to do anything. They can show up and ask to come in but the Mom can just say no. As long as Mom is following the homeschooling laws in your state then case is closed. Unless they suspect physical abuse/neglect there is nothing they can do. Educational neglect is very hard to prove if the homeschooling laws are being followed.

The school can't do anything. If she is following the laws then legally they aren't able to step in or even call and check on the kids. There are some very strong groups that will back this mom with lawyers and assistance if CPS or the school district comes knocking.

If Mom figures out or even thinks you are the one that called then these kids have just lost the one contact that they have.

Sorry, but this is the reality. I homeschooled for several years and as teacups said, it is a Full Time job with a whole lot of overtime to do it right. The ones that screw it up for the rest of us really burn my buns, but there is just nothing you can do about them. It is a very delicate balance between not making things difficult for the legitimate homeschoolers and making sure no kids fall through the cracks.

Talk to the mom if you think you can. Talk to the kids and be their support and keep them in your prayers.

I agree. In our state parents simply have to turn in grades on a regular basis, usually once a quarter. They don't have to prove the grades, back them up with anything, just turn them in. They have to do a standardized test each year but again, they just have to turn in that they took the test, no proof that they did, just submit a piece of paper saying the kids passed the test. It is REALLY, REALLY sad. At bare minimum homeschoolers should have to take a standardized test administered by an outside source. Unfortunately OP there is nothing you can do. Even calling CPS is not going to help anything.

 

[SplashMtnCrew]

DD is very good friends with two sisters. One is her age, 11 and the other is a bit older, 13 or 14. They all became close friends when the 11 year old was in dd's class at school. After our girls had been friends about a year, their mother came to me and said that she had decided to home school her girls. Her reasons were that there was "too much going on at that school". That was 2 years ago. FF to now: the girls are getting NO education. The spend 0 time doing any type of school work whatsoever. They are supposed to be doing their work by computer but never do any of it, at all. They stay up all night and sleep all day and will tell me that they do this. Dd will be talking about things she has learned in school and neither of these girls have a clue what she is talking about.

I feel so sorry for these girls. The oldest should be entering high school soon and she is so far behind that even if she went back to school she wouldn't be able to be in the class she should be in. She won't interact with the other kids her age as it is. I pick them up to go to church with dd and the older girl should be in the youth group and the younger girls still in the children's (well actually its called "merge") group. She always asks to go with the younger group.
And the younger girl is starting to stay home more and more, many times it is only the older girl that will go with us; this is the only interaction they get with other kids.

I am seriously considering contacting the correct authorities but not sure who that is. I personally consider this child neglect but realize it may not fall under those laws. Would I contact the truant officer? Should I do that?

I know our state doesn't have very strict home school laws, but this is ridiculous. These girls have 0 chance of getting anywhere in life. The youngest wants to be a veterinarian and I wonder if her mother realizes she is ruining this child's dreams.

OP~Let me say first that if someone who claims to be homeschooling and ISN'T following the laws of their state, then they are NOT homeschooling. Homeschooling requires the obedience of law at all times, if not, they have broken the law.Just like when someone spits their gum onto the ground, they've committed a crime. That being said, the type of education recieved by a law abiding homeschool family is of no concern to you or anyone else. Just b/c a child is a certain age doesn't automatically mean that the child is in a certain grade or should be at a certain level academically. The fact that you are not in their home or even home yourself during school hours tells me that you really haven't any idea of what goes on there. Actually, homeschooling doesn't necessarily have to even take place in what society considers "normal school hours". So the oldest daughter doesn't want to be in the teen group....who cares? Why are you supposing something is wrong b/c of that? There are many early teenaged children that feel socially "safe" staying with a group they are familiar with. Some people don't like change. I think early teenaged girls have enough problems to deal with at that age without someone telling them that they should be with a certain group b/c of their age....maybe they are afraid of the new situation, maybe they are self concious about how they look...there are so many reasons. As for the children themselves telling you things, I've had children tell me the sky was orange. Children have been known to lie as well. Maybe the kids don't like homeschooling and would rather be in a public school, maybe that's why they say things negative about what they do/don't do and what they are/aren't learning.

 

[cabanafrau]

Well Im no expert by any means, but I know someone who had her kids removed first then they investigated. The kids came home 3 weeks later when it found nothing was wrong. That was not a school issue though... and maybe that had something to do with it. Ever since that, I've been against calling them unless it was needed. It's so unfair to the kids.

FWIW, if children are immediately removed so an investigation can then be done, the allegations that have been made are horrendous. Laws require immediate removal in certain situations for very good reasons. No one wants to see children removed from their home for absolutely no reason at all. It's also heartbreaking when children must be returned to a home because evidence is lacking to prove what's going on for court purposes.

Educational neglect is not an issue which warrants immediate removal from the home. As a matter of fact, I have never seen a case where that is the sole, or even a primary allegation for that matter, of removing children from their home. I've only seen a handful of cases where educational matters are directly addressed in a service plan for the family.

 

[tomthebarncat]

Homeschooling is illegal in Germany. The German governement is afraid of this exact type of situation. To some it means the chance to really educate your child for others it equates to no education at all!! it is hard to find the correct balance. I would not turn them in but invite the girls over to do more educational type of activities with your daughter. You are in a position to be a positive influence and role model. You cannot parent them!! but your heart is in the right place

 

[golfgal]

They dont take a PE, music, swim, gymnastics, horseback or any other lesson????

I personally am against too many homeschool laws. I am against testing simply because in public school they teach-to-the-test. In homeschool we do not. We teach a wide variety but not exactly (usually) what they test to. That isnt fair. And I dont want them telling me what curriculum to use, because my kids get a better education my way than they did at the public school. When someone comes up with a fair way to do it.. I'd be all for it.

No matter how many laws, you cant teach a stupid lazy parent not to be stupid and lazy.

This is the part of homeschooling that drives me nuts. If you are doing your job and teaching at or above grade level your kids will have NO problem passing ANY standardized testing even if you don't teach to the test. If you are doing your job having a standardized test, administered outside of the homeschool family, should be NO threat AND it will prevent cases like the OP is talking about. Why is that so threatening to homeschool families?

If a homeschooled child can't pass a standardized test, barring and major learning disabilities, then something needs to be done to make sure those kids are getting an education-either having a tutor come in for x time or requiring the students to go back into the school system or something.

 

[luvsJack]

lovetoscrap: Thanks for looking that up, I was afraid that was the case in Mississippi. Sounds like you and Golfgal are correct and there is nothing I can do. I just feel that the time is going to slip away from these girls and they will have no education.

SplashMtnCrew: Let me first say, I have nothing whatsoever against anyone homeschooling their children. I have seen children that excelled because of the wonderful education they received from their parent. And for those parents, I would hate to see any kind of laws implemented that would disrupt their style of teaching and I agree that as long as a child is being educated and the laws of the state being followed then it would be none of my business what is going on. That is not the case here.


When this mother first started teaching her children, it seemed she was doing a good job; but the fact is they are adolescent girls and have adolescent attitudes and she cannot deal with it. Instead of making them do anything, she has given up but yet will not put them back in school.

The oldest girl does want to go back to school but the younger does not. And the reason she gives is she likes being able to stay up all night and sleep all day and she doesn't want to have to do any work.

I believe what the girls say because of other things that tend to prove what they say. My dd has been in their house and they all stay up all night and sleep all day (dd very rarely chooses to go over there for this reason, she tends to go to bed at night and get up early). When the girl's father comes home, he and their mother go into their bedroom to watch TV and stay there, the girls are not allowed in (again dd was witnessed this and has asked the girls about it, they have said "oh, its always that way"). So, if they slept all day and then when he gets home the parents stay in the bedroom; when could she possibly be teaching them? And like I said, even she admits she cannot get them to do anything.

As for the neighborhood, they live about 5 minutes from me but in a different neighborhood than I do. (we live in a rural area) The only other kids around them are toddlers and preschoolers. Their parents friends all have small children too. The 13 year old has told me and dh repeatedly that dd is her only friend and she gets really upset if she is not able to be included in some of the activities with church because she is older (the church doesn't really keep her from participating, but if someone is having something for the church group in their home she has been told its only for a certain age/grade and under). You have to understand that dd (11) is on the older end of the ages included in the group and even she feels like she is too old for some things so she chooses not to do them. Our church is located almost next door to the school dd attends. The youth group in church includes most of the kids this girl was in school with until 2 years ago, she was friends with them then. I do think she feel inadequate around them but it truly seems to stem from not being in school with them. When they were in school she was friends with these kids, the longer she is out of school the further away from them she will pull. I really wonder what will happen next year when the younger girls move into the youth group.

Teacups: You asked about other activities. No, they don't even go to the grocery store with their mother. Unless I take them to church they stay right there at their house. The younger girl has shown interest in taking dance lessons with dd, but nothing ever happens with it. I have let them know that I would be glad to let her ride with us. It may be the money, I am not sure.

I know that within a short time dd will probably grow away from these girls. She is already starting to get involved in some school activities (like band) and will get into more starting in jr. high. The busier she gets and the more she does with kids from school, the less time she spends with them. I hate to see it for their sake but do not intend to force a friendship on her either.

 

[luvsJack]

Homeschooling is illegal in Germany. The German governement is afraid of this exact type of situation. To some it means the chance to really educate your child for others it equates to no education at all!! it is hard to find the correct balance. I would not turn them in but invite the girls over to do more educational type of activities with your daughter. You are in a position to be a positive influence and role model. You cannot parent them!! but your heart is in the right place

That's a good idea! Dd has to do a project for reading every few weeks and we do those on the weekends. She will also be doing projects in math and history and the dreaded science project. When they come over I could just ask for them to "help" us and we can all work on that together. Also, we have been planning on taking dd to some museums and the planetarium in Jackson and she loves going to the aquarium in NOLA. Maybe we can start inviting them along. It would do them good to get to go some where like that and it wouldn't hurt if they all learned something in the meantime.

 

[teacups]

This is the part of homeschooling that drives me nuts. If you are doing your job and teaching at or above grade level your kids will have NO problem passing ANY standardized testing even if you don't teach to the test. If you are doing your job having a standardized test, administered outside of the homeschool family, should be NO threat AND it will prevent cases like the OP is talking about. Why is that so threatening to homeschool families?

If a homeschooled child can't pass a standardized test, barring and major learning disabilities, then something needs to be done to make sure those kids are getting an education-either having a tutor come in for x time or requiring the students to go back into the school system or something.

That is such boloney. Then tell me, why do the public schools spend a full school year teaching to the test specifically? (and dont tell me they dont. I used to be a teacher!) Let me give your kids a test on what I'm teaching and lets see how they do. Some people just have a wall up and can not see it.

Luvsjack I hope you can help these girls.
Let me know.
I'm unsubscribing now as I dont need any more anti-homeschool boloney from people who havent been there and dont know what they are talking about. I'm too busy to waste time on that.

 

[patsfan101]

No matter how many laws, you cant teach a stupid lazy parent not to be stupid and lazy.

And therein lies the problem!!

Homeschool can be a great option for some families. Not for mine as I teach in the publlic school, and am therefore not home, but I understand that it works for some and works well.

I wish I had an anwer for you, but starting with the administration or guidance department of your children's school is probably your best bet.

 

[barkley]

This is the part of homeschooling that drives me nuts. If you are doing your job and teaching at or above grade level your kids will have NO problem passing ANY standardized testing even if you don't teach to the test. If you are doing your job having a standardized test, administered outside of the homeschool family, should be NO threat AND it will prevent cases like the OP is talking about. Why is that so threatening to homeschool families?

If a homeschooled child can't pass a standardized test, barring and major learning disabilities, then something needs to be done to make sure those kids are getting an education-either having a tutor come in for x time or requiring the students to go back into the school system or something.

i have to kind of agree with you.

ds's school tends to REALY appeal to those opting to no longer homeschool. every year we get a large percentage of our enrollment from families who have homeschooled. i think it's in large part because of the physical environment but even more so it's because of the way it's structured such that while you might 'technicaly' be assigned a grade level, if you are below or above in one or more subjects in that 'grade' you can get more of a customized eduction plan.

that said-it's private school and does'nt have the legal requirement for standardized tests BUT they use the standardized test as kind of a measuring instrument. they don't teach to it-in fact they give it at the begining of the school year and have the kids take it for the grade they are in. that way they can see if a child has already mastered a subject and might be better served by learning the next level. likewise, if they see a deficiency in a certain subject area they might incorporate remedial lesson work. it's realy strictly used as an instructional tool.

it never fails-there are always complaints among a large percentage of the former homeschoolers about doing any kind of testing on their kids. the parents realy get bent out of shape about it. the staff will explain over and over that unless they can assess where the student is at academicly they can't ensure they are giving them the appropriate level of instruction. the parents argue that they just want their kids to be able to demonstrate their ability-well, that's great in theory but just how do people demonstrate their ability with subject matter? practical application or via a test. it's just not realistic to take 2 or 3 months to observe the student practicly applying all the different subjects-if they did and it was found that they were deficient in one or another or truly excelled that's time wasted in giving them the appropriate instruction.

if for no other reason i can't understand why a homeschooler would'nt want their child to LEARN how to take a standardized test-it is afterall the format they will encounter if they ever choose to get a driver's license, enlist in the military, apply for a government job let alone attend a brick and morter college.

 

[NEVERENOUGHWDW]

OP, your a good woman taking the kids to church & now thinking about taking them on other family outings.


I have to agree with other posters if your home schooling correctly standardized testing should me nothing to be worried about.

Wishing all the Dis kids out there a wonderful school year regardless of where they learn. I will go out on a fence & say I think we can all agree if kids are learning & thriving it's all good

 

[tomthebarncat]

That's a good idea! Dd has to do a project for reading every few weeks and we do those on the weekends. She will also be doing projects in math and history and the dreaded science project. When they come over I could just ask for them to "help" us and we can all work on that together. Also, we have been planning on taking dd to some museums and the planetarium in Jackson and she loves going to the aquarium in NOLA. Maybe we can start inviting them along. It would do them good to get to go some where like that and it wouldn't hurt if they all learned something in the meantime.

Many museums, etc are free, so there is no harm in taking the extra girls with you. I suspect that just being around you and your family will be a positive educational experience. It is not the girls fault that their parents do not care about their education and cannot be basically bothered to parent. Once again, you are in a position to make change! Please take advantage of this opportunity to be a big sister, you just may get something out of it too!

 

[lovetoscrap]

luvsJack, reading your posts again when I am more awake I would suggest a few things.

1. Talk to the Mom. Be sweet as pie. LIE! Tell her that you have thought about homeschooling and would like some advice from her. Ask lots of questions.

What curriculum do you use?
How long do the girls spend on it each day?
What hours do you teach?
How much time do you spend each week preparing for them?
Are there any classes that we could go to so they can make friends?
I heard there is a local homeschool group, do you know anything about them?
What do you do when the girls don't feel like working?
How do you know that they are working at grade level?

Remember, phrase all these as YOU are interested in homeschooling and just want to talk to someone doing it. The idea is to get HER thinking about the important issues.

If she is very negative and gives answers about it being difficult, the girls not working etc... then some more questions:

Have you considered sending them back to school?
Do you know if they will be able to go to college?
Are they going to be able to become what they want?
My DD is really enjoying XYZ in school (but of course you are still considering hs ) and thinks that yours would too, maybe if they were all there together it would be better?
I have noticed that your dd's seem to be withdrawn and really enjoy getting out to church. Do you think sending them back to school would help?


The idea is to really get her thinking about what is important to her girls education without putting her on the defense. Put it all on your curiousity. Just try to have a productive conversation.

Heck, use me as an example. I homeschooled my 2 girls for about 3 years, but when each day became a fight to get them to do their work and to get them to complete their work without tears I decided that it was time for a change. I put them back in school (in Feburary of that year) and they have thrived. I don't regret homeschooling, it was the right choice for that time, but now public school is.


Second thought is to talk to the pastor at church. From the way you have explained things it sounds like the mom/parents don't go to the church? The fact that they allow you to take the girls means that they have some religious beliefs. Perhaps the pastor can talk to the girls and then make a visit to the mom and provide some counseling. Ministers are not a part of the state and are good at helping. He could approach the mom with the angle of the girls not feeling comfortable with their age group, and not being able to keep up, and wanting to help them to be involved.

I know it is frustrating and hard to stand by and watch. You just have to keep praying and have hope that these girls will eventually decide to pursue their education on their own.

 

[luvsJack]

luvsJack, reading your posts again when I am more awake I would suggest a few things.

1. Talk to the Mom. Be sweet as pie. LIE! Tell her that you have thought about homeschooling and would like some advice from her. Ask lots of questions.

What curriculum do you use?
How long do the girls spend on it each day?
What hours do you teach?
How much time do you spend each week preparing for them?
Are there any classes that we could go to so they can make friends?
I heard there is a local homeschool group, do you know anything about them?
What do you do when the girls don't feel like working?
How do you know that they are working at grade level?

Remember, phrase all these as YOU are interested in homeschooling and just want to talk to someone doing it. The idea is to get HER thinking about the important issues.

If she is very negative and gives answers about it being difficult, the girls not working etc... then some more questions:

Have you considered sending them back to school?
Do you know if they will be able to go to college?
Are they going to be able to become what they want?
My DD is really enjoying XYZ in school (but of course you are still considering hs ) and thinks that yours would too, maybe if they were all there together it would be better?
I have noticed that your dd's seem to be withdrawn and really enjoy getting out to church. Do you think sending them back to school would help?


The idea is to really get her thinking about what is important to her girls education without putting her on the defense. Put it all on your curiousity. Just try to have a productive conversation.

Heck, use me as an example. I homeschooled my 2 girls for about 3 years, but when each day became a fight to get them to do their work and to get them to complete their work without tears I decided that it was time for a change. I put them back in school (in Feburary of that year) and they have thrived. I don't regret homeschooling, it was the right choice for that time, but now public school is.


Second thought is to talk to the pastor at church. From the way you have explained things it sounds like the mom/parents don't go to the church? The fact that they allow you to take the girls means that they have some religious beliefs. Perhaps the pastor can talk to the girls and then make a visit to the mom and provide some counseling. Ministers are not a part of the state and are good at helping. He could approach the mom with the angle of the girls not feeling comfortable with their age group, and not being able to keep up, and wanting to help them to be involved.

I know it is frustrating and hard to stand by and watch. You just have to keep praying and have hope that these girls will eventually decide to pursue their education on their own.

Thank you, thank you!!! These are wonderful ideas!!

If I ask in the that way, she is more likely to open up to me. She tends to feel threatened very easy, but I know she would respond to me showing interest for my own child.

I really do think her intentions were in the right place when she took the girls out, she just wasn't able to follow through. Maybe in my talking to her this way I can almost give her an out without her thinking she has to admit she made a mistake.

Also, our preacher would definitely go and talk to her. The youth director would probably be willing to go with him and talk to her too.

Again thank you so much! None of it may work, but at least I will know that I tried.

 

[BeachGirlFLA]

Lovetoscrap, I usually don't advocate lying....but in this case, I think you've had a really, really good idea. This type of homeschooler really bothers me because they give homeschoolers who do a great job (like my niece) a bad name.

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

As a homeschooler, I would suggest you check your state homeschooling laws. If she has to be registered and reported to the county, then your county educational office would be the place to "report" so that they can check on the family in accordance with the law.


I would NOT report them to child protective services as you haven't a clue what is going on in the actual household. In many states, it is the county Superintendent that has jurisdiction.

Since you have not personally witnessed what is going on, you are going on hearsay based on that the girls do not know what your daughter knows. That seriously can happen in any grade for any homeschool child as in many states we have freedom to teach a subject how we wish to do so. (Example is history--some families teach it chronologically which is very viable. In my home, we use Math U See--my dd doesn't know one bit of division b/c they don't get to it until their 4th book which coincides with 4th grade.)


Also--there is a method of homeschooling called "unschooling". I for one am not an expert on it, but many families do homeschool successfully in this manner. The states with more relaxed rules are better able to do this than states that require a more detailed syllabus and attendance requirement.


But please---START with the superintendent/education office of the county and let them handle it if you do plan on reporting.


I would also suggest talking with the mom if you are comfortable--however, this can come across as prying and nosiness if you aren't careful with your words. Be prepared that you may not be comfortable with how she chooses to educate her child and be open-minded that her methods may be indeed viable even if it isn't what you would choose for your children.

While the notion is nice--I think some of lovetoscrap's suggestions are too specific (as though you are probing to see if her dd's school day matches your dd's). If you do not know the mother well--she may not exactly know how to process your inquiry even it turns out she is doing a fine job.

DCF or equivilant has no place in a homeschooling investigation until a homeschool family refuses to comply with the laws of the state. That is up to the Superintendent to determine--not a well meaning neighbor.

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

You could always contact protective services......

They are the incorrect people to preport regarding a homeschooling issue. Here it is the county who determines after proper notification whether or not to review the families portfolio and whether or not the family is compliant. If the family refuses to comply with the law THEN you call CPS--not before.