Wow. 2021 Annual Dues

[Sandisw]

BLT is one of the best in terms of Annual fees this year. We purchased an SSR add on a few years ago as SAP but we also really like the resort and back then the fees were really low. Might contemplate selling SSR for BLT - but SSR is grandfathered from way back so it probably does not make sense to do that. Just frustrated with the increase. What percent goes to adminstration and handling fees or other non-direct related costs of maintenance - just curious if anyone knows that. I am not a numbers person but I am very curious about this

DVCM gets a straight 12% management fee of the operating budget. If expenses exceed the budget, and are not due to an act of God, etc, then DVD steps in and covers a shortfall.

As mentioned, the extra cleaning, transportation and wages are contributing to the increase, FL just voted for a $15 minimum wage so any employees working at Disney are guaranteed that now.

It takes a few years to happen, but it is something that will impact as we move forward.

 

[Yankee626]

HH and VB contracts have to be almost worthless. How can they expect to pay up to $4 more a point than other resorts in the DVC system and be viable. How much would you pay per point to buy one of these contracts ?

 

[RoseGold]

So much for the RIV will adjust down, it's just a high estimate...

 

[havoc315]

HH and VB contracts have to be almost worthless. How can they expect to pay up to $4 more a point than other resorts in the DVC system and be viable. How much would you pay per point to buy one of these contracts ?

Remember, their price per point on resale (and direct) is MUCH lower than the other DVC resorts.
I'd assume being "standalone" adds to their maintenance costs.

But when you can get Vero Beach for under $60 per point, the break-even point is still 6-7 years, even with the higher maintenance.

Let's compare BWV and VB -- As both expire in 2042.
BWV resells at about $125 per point, and has maintenance of $7.81 per point.
VB resells at $60 per point with maintenance of $11.23...

So over 22 years until expiration, at 2020 dollars... Vero Beach is $307 per point, over 22 years. BWV is $296 per point.
Not a huge difference.
Throw OKW into the comparison -- About $100 per point, and $8.36 in dues.... $284 per point.

By far, the cheapest long term points through 2042 are SSR -- $7.11 per point in dues and purchase cost of around $100 per point... $256 per point. But even this, it's still only 20% less than Vero Beach.

Finally, may as well do HHI -- About $75 per point, maintenance of $9.97, $294 per point. Almost the same long term cost as BWV.

 

[RoseGold]

BLT is one of the best in terms of Annual fees this year.

All the top values, BLT/Poly/VGF/SSR/CC are really looking excellent. Their positions as top value will be unchallenged. Relatively high increases at BW/BC, which were already quite high by comparison, will not help their value.

OKW is a little high, which is a strange outlier.

 

[Lorana]

So much for the RIV will adjust down, it's just a high estimate...

I'm not sure that people that RIV would adjust down? I thought the thinking was that it wouldn't increase much if at all for the first few years, so that within a few years, most of the other resorts annual fees would increase and the difference between RIV and the average of other WDW resorts wouldn't be so large. The difference between my RIV and SSR MFs was $1.5432 in 2020; in 2021, it is only $1.2723. For AKV, it went from $0.6397 in 2020 to $0.3555 in 2021.

 

[RoseGold]

I'm not sure that people that RIV would adjust down? I thought the thinking was that it wouldn't increase much if at all for the first few years, so that within a few years, most of the other resorts annual fees would increase and the difference between RIV and the average of other WDW resorts wouldn't be so large.

Last year it was 26% more than BLT, and now it's 21% more. I'm a numbers person, and that difference is staggering. It will take more than a few years to equalize that.

The justifications for RIV's insanely high dues from the start has always been that they are artificially high or won't increase or something. Well, there's your increase anyway, and it's still holding a VERY high premium.

 

[_auroraborealis_]

How often do you see people talking about buying VB or HHI because the buy in coast is so low? New buyers, even those who know about resale, often are not savvy enough to figure in the dues over time.

 

[RoseGold]

How often do you see people talking about buying VB or HHI because the buy in coast is so low? New buyers, even those who know about resale, often are not savvy enough to figure in the dues over time.

I mean, I think there's a place for that for someone who doesn't want to put in the upfront costs or the commitment to a long contract you have to dispose of somehow. Like leasing a car, I guess. Even as the most expensive points in the system, they are still valuable relative to cash WDW bookings, depending on what you book of course.

But yea, SSR is obviously better math all around.

 

[happily single]

I don't own DVC but am curious. So looking at the chart that the OP posted are those figures that every owner has to pay annually? That seems extremely high if it is in addition to the cost of your contract.

 

[RoseGold]

I don't own DVC but am curious. So looking at the chart that the OP posted are those figures that every owner has to pay annually? That seems extremely high if it is in addition to the cost of your contract.

Yes, this math is extremely important and can swing the value of the points, arguably more important than the buy in value. Dues are intentionally much higher at Disney than at other timeshare systems. This matters in a system where the points are (more or less) usable everywhere.

https://www.dvcresalemarket.com/blog/best-economical-dvc-resort-to-purchase-spring-2020/

 

[snappy]

I don't own DVC but am curious. So looking at the chart that the OP posted are those figures that every owner has to pay annually? That seems extremely high if it is in addition to the cost of your contract.

I agree with you. The upside though is if you keep it for a while and time it right, you can recoup some, most, all, or even more than the initial cost of the contract. Better chance if you purchase resale.

 

[BillPA]

Note the 3 resorts that DVD still owns many point in Aulani, Copper Creek and Riveria have minimal increases. .27%, 1.92% and .9%

 

[Sandisw]

So much for the RIV will adjust down, it's just a high estimate...

I don’t think most felt it would go down, but rather thst the other resorts would have higher increases in the first few years that would close the difference,

That is exactly what happened in that all WDW resorts went up much more than RIV....except,CCV, which was only 1 %

So, with less than a 1% increase, it is clear the initial year was higher than actual compared to others in which they have a good handle on it,

For me, my SSR and BLT points are going up much higher than my RIV points, so yeah, RIV closed the gap.

Not much difference in the yearly cost for 2021 between OKW and RIV.

 

[Sandisw]

Note the 3 resorts that DVD still owns many point in Aulani, Copper Creek and Riveria have minimal increases. .27%, 1.92% and .9%

Yes, and what I have read is it stays that way until it sells out due to the formula used,

I think That is why when you look at the trends of increases almost all the resorts stay lower those first few years until sell out and then have typical increases,

With RIV, this may very well help the dues not seem so high in relation to others, especially if it takes several more years to sell out.

It is obviously still on the higher end, but as I mentioned above, my 2021 increases are coming from SSR and BLT and not RIV.

 

[_auroraborealis_]

Disney really doesn't own a lot of CCV.

 

[havoc315]

The justifications for RIV's insanely high dues from the start has always been that they are artificially high or won't increase or something. Well, there's your increase anyway, and it's still holding a VERY high premium.

Yes and no. I don't want to speculate as to the cause for the price differences. But Riviera at $8.38 is now almost exactly the same as OKW, and within 5% of AKV and BRV. Within 10% of BCV and BWV. One could say the 3 monorail resorts are artificially low.

It seems very possible that Riviera dues will be right in the middle of most of the resorts, within just 2 years.

 

[havoc315]

I don't own DVC but am curious. So looking at the chart that the OP posted are those figures that every owner has to pay annually? That seems extremely high if it is in addition to the cost of your contract.

It's far from a "free vacation." But it's a real estate purchase. When you buy your home, you still have significant upkeep costs.

But the way to view it -- If you were renting points to book a DVC property, at 2020 prices, you would pay $20 per point.
So after paying off your purchase price... If maintenance fees are $8 per point, you're getting $20 in value. So after paying off your purchase price, your remaining trips are 60% off.

But it could actually be bigger, or smaller, than that. Depending on inflation. This year, the increase in maintenance is pretty high. Likely due to minimum wage increases. Typically, the hotel price will increase faster than the maintenance.

If, for example, the hotel price increases 5% per year...
But maintenance costs increase 4% per year..

Then in 5 years, your points will have a buying power of $25.50 per point. That $8 maintenance would now be $9.73. So now your trips are $62% off.

After 15 years...
Points would be worth $41.58 and maintenance would be $14.41... So trips are now 65% off.

So you're making a bet that the hotel prices will increase at a faster rate than maintenance fees. It's unlikely maintenance fees will increase faster than hotel prices, though we are likely to see that happening for 2021. (expect hotels to offer bigger than normal discounts).

But just to show the (within reason) extreme, starting again from the $20/$8 breakdown..
20 years... Assuming maintenance increases of 3.5% per year, but hotel prices rising 6% per year...
Maintenance would be $15.92, but points would be worth $64 each. So annually, you're getting 75% off your trips.

 

[RoseGold]

It seems very possible that Riviera dues will be right in the middle of most of the resorts, within just 2 years.

The only way this is possible for the WDW resorts is with a 0% for RIV, but RIV is NOT increasing at 0%. That's why a +.9% for this year matters. CC's -.9% in 2018 is what made people so optimistic about RIV's math, but it isn't what happened. RIV is already so high, all it has to do is get close to average increase, and it will stay high.

But, sure, RIV is low compared to Vero/HH, and probably will always be.

 

[havoc315]

The only way this is possible for the WDW resorts is with a 0% for RIV, but RIV is NOT increasing at 0%. That's why a +.9% for this year matters. CC's -.9% in 2018 is what made people so optimistic about RIV's math, but it isn't what happened. RIV is already so high, all it has to do is get close to average increase, and it will stay high.

But, sure, RIV is low compared to Vero/HH, and probably will always be.

No... if you simply have 1 more year where Riviera increases 1% and the other resorts increase by 4%...
Then you get:
Riviera at $8.47
AKV at $8.40
OKW at $8.69
BCV at $7.73
BWV at $8.13
CCV at $7.89

If then you have 1 further year where Riviera is 1% and the others are 4%, then 2023 dues:
Riv: $8.55
AKV -- $8.74
OKW -- $9.04
BCV -- $8.04
BWV -- $8.46
CCV -- $8.21

Of course, if Riviera starts to join the other resorts for 4% increases next year, then it will stay higher. But if it keeps to a 1% rate per year for 2 years.. while the other resorts continue normal increases, you see that within 2 years, Riviera fits right in the middle of most of the resorts.