Would you join a lawsuit against DVC to stop/revert the 2020 reallocation?

[skier_pete]

I'll be at WDW in 7 days. First trip ever with just my DW.
I had planned on having a conversation about this with every guide I encountered in the parks or in the resorts.
"So if I just use studios, DVD can't raise any nights requirement without a corresponding decrease in another night points?"
"Is that how you have been selling this for years?"
I was expecting my over/under to be 20 conversations, what would stop be would either be security or my DW. I was expecting my DW to stop me first.
Additionally, I was expecting to dedicate a significant amount of my time at MM on the 5th speaking with DVD leadership.

I still plan on having some conversations with both guides and leadership about the specific wording in the letter.
I will be asking leadership to get as specific as they can about flexibility they believe they have with the charts and ask them to publish a formal document. Additionally, they need to insure the guides understand these interpretations and clearly communicate it to all potential buyers. Possibly even a formal acknowledgement in the paperwork.

"DVDMC can increase the total number of points it takes to reserve a specific villa for the year. With regard to a the total combination of all the deeded villas (example 2BR) the overall points will remain constant for the year. However, the total points for the year can increase for non-deeded portions (example studio and 1BR) of a deeded unit without a corresponding decrease in points elsewhere."

If that had been in the paperwork for the last 26 years, and that is what the guides clearly communicated to all potential buyers, we may not have been happy, but most of us would have accepted this as a reality and within what was communicated to us.

One thing I would suggest - if you do talk to the leadership at MM - start by thanking them for rolling back the charts before saying why. As others have said - we should give them positive feedback to let them know that the members are happy with the decision. You can ask them - but I suspect you will not get an answer as to *why* they decided to roll it back - other than what they already said.

 

[Dean]

Wow I’m really surprised they went back to the old charts. I didn’t look at all of them but I checked a handful and compared the studios in 2019 and 2020 and didn’t see any differences. This is great news for me personally as we almost always book studios. I’m even happier to see they are going to look more in depth to this as I like many think the increased costs for 1 BR didn’t make sense. Hopefully this means it really wasn’t anything nefarious with regards to exploiting the lock off premium (or if it was they are concerned at the backlash from owners).

Agreed, makes you wonder what happens now. Will it be the new charge starting in 2021 but with better communication? Will they just leave it as it is for a while? Will they do a completely new different reallocation.

This isn’t really what I was asking. I was asking if they had language regarding leveling of the seasons and right to use a single night for a given point.

Sorry, I misunderstood. No, what Bluegreen does is by timeshare week and by day of the week, not by season They just say here's what it is and we can change it. They use similar demand wording as DVC. With their setup it really isn' applicable because what you own is a specific week/unit which the points are symbolic of. So if they changed the points for your week/unit as I read it, I believe you'd now own a different number of points. If they disbanded or removed your resort, you'd just own a fixed week/fixed unit. Marriott Trust points (their new system) is setup completely on a trust with no home resort and IIRC it does have he ability to change. Marriott weeks owners own a week within a season and the points are an add on option and you'd be subject to the cost changes on the trust side.

Where is Dean since the great news broke? Like to get his view on DVC’s about-face. Makes me wonder if he is a DVC employee, consultant, or unpaid plant on this board. Seems to ALWAYS take The DVC side of issues. Just wondering.

Not questioning anyone’s integrity, but maybe his motivation. Don’t know the person, and I haven’t been on this board in years. It’s just seemed his veracity for taking Disney side in all this, and feeling the need to Vehemently oppose almost every valid point members made and take DVC’s side, just made me wonder the motive. Re reading my post, i can see how my statement came across negative or somewhat confrontational . That was not the intent. However I would not be surprised if Disney watches this board and has personnel post their position from time to time without revealing who they truly are. Maybe just the cynical side of me.

Nope, I acknowledged it as great news and had other things going on. I don't take DVC's side, I take the side of understanding the POS and what you bought along with honesty, integrity and personal responsibility. Other than I'm surprised at the change and reversal, I don't think any of my posts would have been different in intent now vs before. I'm not an employee and historically DVC/DVD and the guides haven't been big fans. If you took it that way you completely missed my points along the way.

No. He’s said himself that years ago DIS members/pixie dusters saw him as anti-Disney, now anti-pixie dusters see him as pro-Disney even though his stance hasn’t changed. I think he sees things one way and rarely changes his mind without overwhelming evidence.

This would be fairly accurate, maybe not overwhelming but specific and direct information, esp if I have written documentation to the contrary (POS, Statue 721 for example).

Dean. as a number of others, presented the reality view that it was unlikely DVC would change the point charts. Frankly, despite my optimistic views, I feared it was also unlikely. Do not know about Dean, but I am definitely shocked by the outcome.

I look at it now as no time to gloat, but instead thank DVC for listening and changing its mind.

100% agreed and surprised. I wonder what happens next.

 

[Madame]

Don’t know if it’s a generational or cultural thing, but even though I respect people for doing so, I would never feel the need to thank a corporation for doing as it was supposed to. Donate to charity? Yes. This, no. I respectfully disagree.

 

[skier_pete]

Don’t know if it’s a generational or cultural thing, but even though I respect people for doing so, I would never feel the need to thank a corporation for doing as it was supposed to. Donate to charity? Yes. This, no. I respectfully disagree.

I guess my suggestion to thank them is that they didn't just barrel ahead and force legal action - but took what we were saying seriously. Basically they admitted that they were wrong. That is NOT normal for a major corporation.

 

[Madame]

I guess my suggestion to thank them is that they didn't just barrel ahead and force legal action - but took what we were saying seriously. Basically they admitted that they were wrong. That is NOT normal for a major corporation.

That’s the problem it should BE normal for a company with a fiduciary responsibility.

 

[crvetter]

Don’t know if it’s a generational or cultural thing, but even though I respect people for doing so, I would never feel the need to thank a corporation for doing as it was supposed to. Donate to charity? Yes. This, no. I respectfully disagree.

I actually drafted a letter prior to the change to thanks leadership for taking the time to listen to my complaints/concerns (especially Yvonne). I think individuals make up a corporation, and if we show them appreciation for their time (not response necessarily), they will realize we valued it. This will help in leaps and bounds in the future when we have an issue.

I will reiterate that when I sent a letter certified to DVCMC I never expected a call from one of the directors. And as I told her it was evident to me at least 1 person cared about member satisfaction. I might have disagreed with what she said but she never once tried to shut me down. She tried to argue her point was right (even if I felt it was weak). In essence I think she treated me with respect. I can’t attest to the others that talked to her. But this is why I feel the need to thank her for her personal response to the situation.

I say thank the individuals doesn’t necessarily need to be the corporation.

 

[Dean]

Don’t know if it’s a generational or cultural thing, but even though I respect people for doing so, I would never feel the need to thank a corporation for doing as it was supposed to. Donate to charity? Yes. This, no. I respectfully disagree.

Either way it doesn't paint them very well. Whether it was the right thing done poorly or the wrong thing either way the questions will still remain. My hope, something we've addressed previously but hasn't happened, is they'll be more proactive and forthcoming on changes in general whether it be refurbishment planning, reallocation or valet parking type issues.

 

[DaveNan]

I'll be at WDW in 7 days. First trip ever with just my DW.
I had planned on having a conversation about this with every guide I encountered in the parks or in the resorts.
"So if I just use studios, DVD can't raise any nights requirement without a corresponding decrease in another night points?"
"Is that how you have been selling this for years?"

I plan on being positive in my conversations, but really just want clear and formal communication about changes and potential changes.

To be honest, I would guess most guides have really been torn up by this. They have been selling under a set of perceived rules and asking people to spend their hard earned money face to face. We know them by name and they know us by name. Whether it is allowed in the POC or not, I never had a conversation with a guide where they at all implied studios as a whole could go up. In fact most including statements to the contrary. I do not believe they were at all involved in any kind of an intention misrepresentation. My guess is they are actually happier than us right now.

 

[skier_pete]

I say thank the individuals doesn’t necessarily need to be the corporation.

And that is a definite must-do! Certainly individuals within an organization can do things for customers above what the corporation requires.

I plan on being positive in my conversations, but really just want clear and formal communication about changes and potential changes.

To be honest, I would guess most guides have really been torn up by this. They have been selling under a set of perceived rules and asking people to spend their hard earned money face to face. We know them by name and they know us by name. Whether it is allowed in the POC or not, I never had a conversation with a guide where they at all implied studios as a whole could go up. In fact most including statements to the contrary. I do not believe they were at all involved in any kind of an intention misrepresentation. My guess is they are actually happier than us right now.

This is an excellent point - their may have been some strong internal concerns. I am sure that the people that changed the point charts did not consult the sales group, and what sort of impact this could have on what they've been saying all these years. Sometimes things like this can be more effective than when a customer complains.

I'm sure we'll never get the full story on why this was done or why they reversed it. I can just picture us reminiscing about this in 10 years. (Remember when...)

 

[Splashboat]

This was a reality check for us. We were thinking of adding on but put the brakes on with all of these drastic changes announced.
It's like taking that medicine. You know there are pages of warnings in small print but never think it will happen. I think we are going to just keep what we have for now.

 

[Madame]

I actually drafted a letter prior to the change to thanks leadership for taking the time to listen to my complaints/concerns (especially Yvonne). I think individuals make up a corporation, and if we show them appreciation for their time (not response necessarily), they will realize we valued it. This will help in leaps and bounds in the future when we have an issue.

I will reiterate that when I sent a letter certified to DVCMC I never expected a call from one of the directors. And as I told her it was evident to me at least 1 person cared about member satisfaction. I might have disagreed with what she said but she never once tried to shut me down. She tried to argue her point was right (even if I felt it was weak). In essence I think she treated me with respect. I can’t attest to the others that talked to her. But this is why I feel the need to thank her for her personal response to the situation.

I say thank the individuals doesn’t necessarily need to be the corporation.

I respect that. Personally I try not to hold grudges, but have a long memory. I remember, for example, that they made a point of mentioning to Zavandor that he was a resaler before offering to buy him out, as if doing him a favour...

 

[skier_pete]

This was a reality check for us. We were thinking of adding on but put the brakes on with all of these drastic changes announced.
It's like taking that medicine. You know there are pages of warnings in small print but never think it will happen. I think we are going to just keep what we have for now.

Me too. These changes made me think I would likely never add on again. The rollback made me think maybe I will at some point, but I'm still more in a "wait and see" mode - as in, what are they going to try and pull instead in 2021. In other words, even rolling it back, they've still crushed my itch for more points - but now there's a possiblity it can come back.

 

[Matty B13]

To be honest, I would guess most guides have really been torn up by this. They have been selling under a set of perceived rules and asking people to spend their hard earned money face to face. We know them by name and they know us by name. Whether it is allowed in the POC or not, I never had a conversation with a guide where they at all implied studios as a whole could go up. In fact most including statements to the contrary. I do not believe they were at all involved in any kind of an intention misrepresentation. My guess is they are actually happier than us right now.

I think this was a big problem for DVC, if most of their CM/Guides have been telling their costumers that they only needed to buy XX amount of points for a studio in YY season, and they would be all set for 50 years, and this was told to thousands of customers....... guess what that is the product that they were selling! Doesn't matter what the POS states, because this would be classic "Bait and Switch" practices by a corporation. I'm guessing if put to an oath all the guides would state the same thing. Salesmen can't flat out lie when selling a product no matter what (I don't think they were lying, that is what they were trained to say), but a judge or arbitrator would see it as a lie, since several customers within the last year have bought points for a specific year and unit type, and then the point charts got changed and now they can't stay for same week.

After Enron and specifically Wells Fargo, who at every level of management failed to be honest and trust worthy (if not criminal), I'm sorry but I don't think this was just a little mistake. I think their legal counsel was starting to get worried.

 

[Airb330]

Where is Dean since the great news broke? Like to get his view on DVC’s about-face. Makes me wonder if he is a DVC employee, consultant, or unpaid plant on this board. Seems to ALWAYS take The DVC side of issues. Just wondering.

Oh my. He’s none of those things. Goodness, that’s silly. Dean is a wealth of information on this site. Due to him and some of the other regulars—I’ve learned tons about DVC and it’s why I purchased resale back in 2012.

Anyways...

Congrats and thank you to everyone in this thread who fostered discussion. We did it! Now, we have some work to do before 2021...!

 

[kristenrice]

I have been following this thread since the beginning and I admit, I have been overwhelmed. I am not a numbers person and a lot of the language and terminology is a little complicated for me. I really appreciate all of the work so many of you have put into explaining it and breaking it down into simple terms for people like me to understand.

One thing I have gleaned from this is that I have lost a lot of faith in DVC as a whole. I am confident that they did not reverse their decision out of the goodness of their hearts or "based on member feedback". They did it to protect themselves from legal action, plain and simple. There are 2 scenarios that I see here...

1) Disney did not realize that the reallocation was potentially "illegal" or could make them vulnerable to legal action. This tells me that they were sloppy and they did not fully review their own policies and regulations before making the reallocation. How am I supposed to trust that they are doing the right thing when they clearly did not review it themselves??

OR...even worse...

2) Disney KNEW that what they were doing was potentially "illegal" but it would be a money-maker for them and they took a chance that the members wouldn't figure out what they were doing. They thought they could hide behind statements like "balancing demand" and "lock-off premium" and the members wouldn't be smart enough to figure out what they were really doing. Then, when they were presented with information that revealed that members SAW what they were trying to do, they suddenly changed their minds.

I honestly believe that scenario #2 is the more likely, but I will give Disney the benefit of the doubt and say that either is possible....but I don't like it either way. It screams of incompetence and dishonesty and it really leaves a sour taste in my mouth for DVC right now. I'm not going to sell my meager 150 points because I still enjoy my vacations and I still see value in them, but that does not mean I view DVC through rose-colored glasses right now.

 

[Madame]

I have been following this thread since the beginning and I admit, I have been overwhelmed. I am not a numbers person and a lot of the language and terminology is a little complicated for me. I really appreciate all of the work so many of you have put into explaining it and breaking it down into simple terms for people like me to understand.

One thing I have gleaned from this is that I have lost a lot of faith in DVC as a whole. I am confident that they did not reverse their decision out of the goodness of their hearts or "based on member feedback". They did it to protect themselves from legal action, plain and simple. There are 2 scenarios that I see here...

1) Disney did not realize that the reallocation was potentially "illegal" or could make them vulnerable to legal action. This tells me that they were sloppy and they did not fully review their own policies and regulations before making the reallocation. How am I supposed to trust that they are doing the right thing when they clearly did not review it themselves??

OR...even worse...

2) Disney KNEW that what they were doing was potentially "illegal" but it would be a money-maker for them and they took a chance that the members wouldn't figure out what they were doing. They thought they could hide behind statements like "balancing demand" and "lock-off premium" and the members wouldn't be smart enough to figure out what they were really doing. Then, when they were presented with information that revealed that members SAW what they were trying to do, they suddenly changed their minds.

I honestly believe that scenario #2 is the more likely, but I will give Disney the benefit of the doubt and say that either is possible....but I don't like it either way. It screams of incompetence and dishonesty and it really leaves a sour taste in my mouth for DVC right now. I'm not going to sell my meager 150 points because I still enjoy my vacations and I still see value in them, but that does not mean I view DVC through rose-colored glasses right now.

Agreed. The idea that they caved to pressure or are reviewing based on member feedback and for member benefit is highly unlikely.

 

[cruisin5]

Does anyone else think the original 2020 charts will in full effect by 2030? Small changes along the way.

But, I'll take it for now. Thanks to those who patiently explained and debated. The civil dialogue in the thread is refreshing to witness.

 

[DVC92]

I guess my suggestion to thank them is that they didn't just barrel ahead and force legal action - but took what we were saying seriously. Basically they admitted that they were wrong. That is NOT normal for a major corporation.

I don't know if they admitted they were wrong. I believe they weren't sure, or simply didn't want all the bad publicity that this was starting to generate. I do know Ms. Chang gave me an hour on the phone. One thing I also know is that the people at the top don't always know what the bean counters are doing, and whether it is within the disclosure of the contractual obligations. That simply could have been the case here, or there could have been a more nefarious reason. We don't know, but at least we got the revision revoked for the present.

 

[Madame]

I don't know if they admitted they were wrong. I believe they weren't sure, or simply didn't want all the bad publicity that this was starting to generate. I do know Ms. Chang gave me an hour on the phone. One thing I also know is that the people at the top don't always know what the bean counters are doing, and whether it is within the disclosure of the contractual obligations. That simply could have been the case here, or there could have been a more nefarious reason. We don't know, but at least we got the revision revoked for the present.

I just read elsewhere that Ms Chang was an underling of the person in charge of regulations during Jim Lewis’ infamous tenure. I wouldn’t give her the benefit of the doubt

 

[Johnny D]

Received a phone call from member service’s customer satisfaction team about an hour ago in reply to an email I sent. My tone was respectful but firm. They were very cordial and respectful and basically stated in no uncertain terms, they had a change of heart based on all the negative feedback from the members. She would not speculate on the 2021 point chart but did say they have more analysing to do.