Would you join a lawsuit against DVC to stop/revert the 2020 reallocation?

[RobDoc]

...
Further, if the weighted average cost is 15.1, then I might be able to book 9 nights for 135 points, but 10 nights would cost me (on average) 151 points. At least one night of the year would have to be worth more than 15 points, thus violating maximum reallocation. If, in fact, that's what maximum reallocation is meant to define.

Following are two documents from the May, 1993 POS for The Disney Vacation Club Ownership Program. They are both from Exhibit "I" to Declaration of Condominium
Disney Vacation Club Membership Agreement
Section II Operation of the Club
Section 2.3 Vacation Point Reservation System.

The first is page 162, with a description of how Vacation Points are determined, and how DVCMC in its discretion has the ability to reallocate points in accordance with 'Use Day' demand at any given Resort to better meet Member reservation patterns, followed by page 163 which offers a chart with the result of a Maximum Reallocation at OKW. The chart shows the number of consecutive Use Day reservations that could be reserved at OKW (at that time) for each villa type for each Reservation Season for a Member owning 230 points (which was the minimum purchase at that time). The chart also shows the number of consecutive Use Days the same Member (again owning 230 Vacation Points) could reserve for each Villa type under Maximum Reallocation - which again, makes each day of the year the same number of points for each type of accommodation whether weekday/weekend or time of the year.

Subsequent MR charts at other resorts will have similar headings based on the Resort point chart, both in the number of consecutive days and in the example used for a variation of the number of points owned by the Member. This is the only POS I have showing this Maximum Reallocation. I do have a couple of Multiple Site POS documents and a HH POS from August, 1998 - all have similar language for the Vacation Point Reservation Values, but none offer a chart for Maximum Reallocation.

 

[DaveNan]

But at AKV it seems they've lumped all categories together. So you'd have to get the average of all categories combined. And probably include both Kidani and Jambo

This is where it gets interesting to me. Should I include LO studios in this calculation? I will do it for the dedicated studios and including LO too...
J Dedicated value = 8 units JLO Value 10 average 11.01 per night (average based on season and weekday)
Standard JDed = 14, JLO = 34 KLO = 60 average 15.93 per night
Savannah JDed = 24, J LO = 33 KLO = 109 average 20.18 (I have seen both 109 and 108 for Kidani, wont change the answer much)
Con JDed = 0, JLO = 5 average 24.86

If we use only the dedicated studios the weighted average is 17.29 points per night
If I use dedicated and LO (which I don't feel is the right way based on the declarations and the entire concept of the LO premium) the average is 18.16.

All lumped together any way you slice it NOT 15.

 

[RobDoc]

They don't have to actually even them out (take away the seasons) but they have to remain at that average.

I have only done the math on BWV standard. Which seems to be pushing the limit at a fraction over 15 but I'd assume that variance is allowable.

The problem is I don't see where we have the charts for ALL of the resorts. But I admit I cannot quite keep up or even remember all that's on this thread.

There has never been a Maximum Reallocation at a DVC Resort. As defined in the POS, a Maximum Reallocation makes every day of the year require the same number of points for each type of accommodation. While 'average' has been used here to attempt to define Maximum Reallocation, I have not seen 'average' used in any of the POS documents I have access to review.

The Reallocation published for 2020 is NOT a Maximum Reallocation and NOT subject to any particular Vacation Point value for a specific date or accommodation.

No one here has brought forward the actual data used by DVC to cause modification of the 2019 point charts.

Many here have expressed a sense that the data will likely support the 2020 reallocation and others have created their own anecdotal data to support their personal feeling about the reallocation. In reality, none of us have access to the information used by DVCMC to cause the Reallocation.

 

[zavandor]

I know there are people who don't want to read this, but "maximum reallocation" does not set the maximum amount of points that a vacation home type can cost throughout the year. Just because the word "maximum" is used when talking about a point chart that has no seasons and no weekend/weekday differences doesn't mean that it creates "maximum" point values for the accommodations.

I agree.
However the paragraph about the maximum reallocation is interesting for another reason. It shows the intention of who wrote the POS originally: they are clearly stating to potential purchasers that there is no assurance that buying X points would grant them Y number of nights in a season of their choice. So they make the example of the most extreme thing they could think of: eliminate all seasons and the difference between week days and weekends and have every day cost the same. This maximum reallocation does not show a reallocation between different Vacation Home sizes. And this is coherent with the rest of the document: nowhere there is mention that points can be reallocated between different VH, only within the same VH between different Use Days.

 

[RobDoc]

...And this is coherent with the rest of the document: nowhere there is mention that points can be reallocated between different VH, only within the same VH between different Use Days.

Actually, there is mention of that in the document I already posted above in Exhibit "I" section 2.3.
While it may not use the words you wish to see, it does state:
"THE TOTAL NUMBER OF VACATION POINTS REQUIRED TO RESERVE ALL USE DAYS IN THE CONDOMINIUM OR A GIVEN DVC RESORT, IF ANY ARE ASSOCIATED WITH THE CLUB, MUST ALWAYS EQUAL, AND BE SYMBOLIC OF, THE TOTAL NUMBER OF OWNERSHIP INTERESTS OWNED BY CLUB MEMBERS AT THAT RESORT."

Since it does state "the total number of points required to reserve all use days in the" resort, my interpretation is that a reallocation needs to balance the points owned at each resort among all use days and all types of accommodations. I do not believe the document needs to specifically state how the reallocation needs to be done, only that is needs to balance all points for all Use Days across the resort. The same document in Section 1.35 defines 'Use Day' as follows:

"Use Day shall mean a twenty-four hour period (or such lesser period as may be designated by DVC from time to time) in an accommodation of the Condominium or other DVC Resort, if any, subject to use reservation by Club Members. Where the context so requires, the term "Use Day" shall not include the day of departure."

Since 'Use Day' applies to all accommodation types, my personal interpretation is that all accommodation types may be used to maintain the desired balance of Use days across the resort.

 

[RobDoc]

This is where it gets interesting to me. Should I include LO studios in this calculation? I will do it for the dedicated studios and including LO too...
J Dedicated value = 8 units JLO Value 10 average 11.01 per night (average based on season and weekday)
Standard JDed = 14, JLO = 34 KLO = 60 average 15.93 per night
Savannah JDed = 24, J LO = 33 KLO = 109 average 20.18 (I have seen both 109 and 108 for Kidani, wont change the answer much)
Con JDed = 0, JLO = 5 average 24.86

If we use only the dedicated studios the weighted average is 17.29 points per night
If I use dedicated and LO (which I don't feel is the right way based on the declarations and the entire concept of the LO premium) the average is 18.16.

All lumped together any way you slice it NOT 15.

Does the AKV POS show Studios as 15 points in a Maximum Reallocation?

The information provided in this thread was specifically for OKW where the point requirements for each day of the year in a Studio would be 15 points (weekdays/weekends, any date).

Unless the AKV POS states the same thing, the '15' figure should not be used as the standard as the points required at each resort may vary (I do realize that some are very similar though).

When OKW opened in October, 1991, the points required to reserve a Studio ranged from seven (7) points per night for Adventure Season weekdays to 38 points per night for Fri/Sat during Premier Season. No OKW Studios may be reserved for 7 points per night any longer. Under Maximum Reallocation, ALL nights for an OKW Studio would be 15 points per night year-around.

 

[zavandor]

Actually, there is mention of that in the document I already posted above in Exhibit "I" section 2.3.
While it may not use the words you wish to see, it does state:
"THE TOTAL NUMBER OF VACATION POINTS REQUIRED TO RESERVE ALL USE DAYS IN THE CONDOMINIUM OR A GIVEN DVC RESORT, IF ANY ARE ASSOCIATED WITH THE CLUB, MUST ALWAYS EQUAL, AND BE SYMBOLIC OF, THE TOTAL NUMBER OF OWNERSHIP INTERESTS OWNED BY CLUB MEMBERS AT THAT RESORT."

Since it does state "the total number of points required to reserve all use days in the" resort, my interpretation is that a reallocation needs to balance the points owned at each resort among all use days and all types of accommodations. I do not believe the document needs to specifically state how the reallocation needs to be done, only that is needs to balance all points for all Use Days across the resort. The same document in Section 1.35 defines 'Use Day' as follows:

"Use Day shall mean a twenty-four hour period (or such lesser period as may be designated by DVC from time to time) in an accommodation of the Condominium or other DVC Resort, if any, subject to use reservation by Club Members. Where the context so requires, the term "Use Day" shall not include the day of departure."

Since 'Use Day' applies to all accommodation types, my personal interpretation is that all accommodation types may be used to maintain the desired balance of Use days across the resort.

I have already commented on this, at the end of this post:
https://www.disboards.com/threads/w...20-reallocation.3726101/page-33#post-60132733

We have different personal interpretations.

 

[miTnosnhoJ]

I know there are people who don't want to read this, but "maximum reallocation" does not set the maximum amount of points that a vacation home type can cost throughout the year. Just because the word "maximum" is used when talking about a point chart that has no seasons and no weekend/weekday differences doesn't mean that it creates "maximum" point values for the accommodations.

In a maximum reallocation, a resort's total points are equally distributed across all Use Days by vacation home type. Beach Club Villas has just over 3 million points and to fit all of those points on a flattened point chart, DVD assigned 16 points a night to studios, 36 points to one-bedrooms, and 46 points to two-bedrooms. These point assignments were arbitrary; DVD could have just as easily set a higher or lower point value for one vacation home type as long as it made a corresponding change in either or both of the other two types. DVD merely had to find places for 3.0+ million points on BCV's point chart, and by tweaking the weighted values of the three vacation home types it set these point values.

But these point values do not establish a "maximum" Use Day value for each vacation home type. They do not serve to cap the point values of the vacation home types. They do not set a "maximum" number of points that can be allotted to each vacation home type for the entire year. They do not set an "average" value for each vacation home type.

Instead, these values have been used to establish a single Use Day booking "guarantee" (my word) for each vacation home type at each resort. In each resort's master declaration is a section that states "each Club Member will always be eligible to reserve at the Condominium, subject to availability: at least one (1) Use Day in a Studio Vacation Home for every XX Home Resort Vacation Points; at least one (1) Use Day in a One-Bedroom Vacation Home for every XX Home Resort Vacation Points; at least one (1) Use Day in a Two-Bedroom Vacation Home for every XX Home Resort Vacation Points;" etc. The Multi-Site POS has a chart showing these values for all DVC resorts.

As I have said before, the point values set in this section do not represent a "maximum" point value. They do serve as a guarantee (my word) that a resort's point chart will always have at least one Use Day that can be booked for that number of points, or less.

If BCV's point chart was reallocated and there was not at least one day where a studio could be reserved for 16 points, then DVCMC would be in violation of the POS. However, if BCV studios go to 20 points or more for some nights during the year, there is no violation as long as there is a night at 16 points or less on the point chart.

My question about this: Is it really a single day? Or is it all days (say weekdays) in a single season? I suppose Disney could arbitrarily define a single day season, but so far they have not. And as long as they are reallocating in good faith, it should be a tautology that at least 1 season is below the Flat level, because when they raise some, others should be lowered. But the lockoff premium seems to erase this tautology.

 

[RobDoc]

I have already commented on this, at the end of this post:
https://www.disboards.com/threads/w...20-reallocation.3726101/page-33#post-60132733

We have different personal interpretations.

In that link, you seem to ignore the fact that lock-off 2BR villas are defined as Vacation Homes in the same document, which may be divided into 1BR and Studio accommodations.

"Two-Bedroom Vacation Home shall mean a Vacation Home containing two (2) bedrooms, two (2) bathrooms and a Full Kitchen. Certain of the Two-Bedroom Vacation Homes may be locked-off into One-Bedroom and Studio Vacation Homes as a use convenience only."

Yes, we do have different personal interpretations.

 

[wdrl]

My question about this: Is it really a single day? Or is it all days (say weekdays) in a single season? I suppose Disney could arbitrarily define a single day season, but so far they have not. And as long as they are reallocating in good faith, it should be a tautology that at least 1 season is below the Flat level, because when they raise some, others should be lowered. But the lockoff premium seems to erase this tautology.

It really is a single Use Day.

 

[zavandor]

In that link, you seem to ignore the fact that lock-off 2BR villas are defined as Vacation Homes in the same document, which may be divided into 1BR and Studio accommodations.

I have to correct you, the POS doesn't use the word accommodations. The doc doc says that some 2BR Vacation homes can be separated into a Studio Vacation Home and a 1BR Vacation Home for convenience of use only.
The three are all defined in the same way, that's why I say in the doc the lockoff are never explicitly mentioned as something more special. Someone said that there is written somewhere in the POS that the points charts have to be balanced only based on the 2BR. While we all agree this is the system used by Disney, there is no evidence of this in the POS (not that I could find in the SSR POS I have). That's why in that post I say that Disney's interpretation is that there must be at least one possible allocation that balances the resort.

 

[DaveNan]

I know there are people who don't want to read this, but "maximum reallocation" does not set the maximum amount of points that a vacation home type can cost throughout the year. Just because the word "maximum" is used when talking about a point chart that has no seasons and no weekend/weekday differences doesn't mean that it creates "maximum" point values for the accommodations.

In a maximum reallocation, a resort's total points are equally distributed across all Use Days by vacation home type. Beach Club Villas has just over 3 million points and to fit all of those points on a flattened point chart, DVD assigned 16 points a night to studios, 36 points to one-bedrooms, and 46 points to two-bedrooms. These point assignments were arbitrary; DVD could have just as easily set a higher or lower point value for one vacation home type as long as it made a corresponding change in either or both of the other two types. DVD merely had to find places for 3.0+ million points on BCV's point chart, and by tweaking the weighted values of the three vacation home types it set these point values.

But these point values do not establish a "maximum" Use Day value for each vacation home type. They do not serve to cap the point values of the vacation home types. They do not set a "maximum" number of points that can be allotted to each vacation home type for the entire year. They do not set an "average" value for each vacation home type.

Instead, these values have been used to establish a single Use Day booking "guarantee" (my word) for each vacation home type at each resort. In each resort's master declaration is a section that states "each Club Member will always be eligible to reserve at the Condominium, subject to availability: at least one (1) Use Day in a Studio Vacation Home for every XX Home Resort Vacation Points; at least one (1) Use Day in a One-Bedroom Vacation Home for every XX Home Resort Vacation Points; at least one (1) Use Day in a Two-Bedroom Vacation Home for every XX Home Resort Vacation Points;" etc. The Multi-Site POS has a chart showing these values for all DVC resorts.

As I have said before, the point values set in this section do not represent a "maximum" point value. They do serve as a guarantee (my word) that a resort's point chart will always have at least one Use Day that can be booked for that number of points, or less.

If BCV's point chart was reallocated and there was not at least one day where a studio could be reserved for 16 points, then DVCMC would be in violation of the POS. However, if BCV studios go to 20 points or more for some nights during the year, there is no violation as long as there is a night at 16 points or less on the point chart.

I did all that math, based on specific season day of week, and for Kidani

Does the AKV POS show Studios as 15 points in a Maximum Reallocation?

The information provided in this thread was specifically for OKW where the point requirements for each day of the year in a Studio would be 15 points (weekdays/weekends, any date).

Unless the AKV POS states the same thing, the '15' figure should not be used as the standard as the points required at each resort may vary (I do realize that some are very similar though).

When OKW opened in October, 1991, the points required to reserve a Studio ranged from seven (7) points per night for Adventure Season weekdays to 38 points per night for Fri/Sat during Premier Season. No OKW Studios may be reserved for 7 points per night any longer. Under Maximum Reallocation, ALL nights for an OKW Studio would be 15 points per night year-around.

Based on this I was using the 15 max allocation for an AKV studio


https://www.dvcnews.com/index.php/r...2-exclusive-contemporary-points-chart-preview

 

[4luv2cdisney]

This is where it gets interesting to me. Should I include LO studios in this calculation? I will do it for the dedicated studios and including LO too...
J Dedicated value = 8 units JLO Value 10 average 11.01 per night (average based on season and weekday)
Standard JDed = 14, JLO = 34 KLO = 60 average 15.93 per night
Savannah JDed = 24, J LO = 33 KLO = 109 average 20.18 (I have seen both 109 and 108 for Kidani, wont change the answer much)
Con JDed = 0, JLO = 5 average 24.86

If we use only the dedicated studios the weighted average is 17.29 points per night
If I use dedicated and LO (which I don't feel is the right way based on the declarations and the entire concept of the LO premium) the average is 18.16.

All lumped together any way you slice it NOT 15.

I do not take it as how many studios are in any category has any bearing. Simply that 15 x 366 = 5490 points. If all studios were equal and level, it would take 5490 points to book a single studio for the year. Assuming each category at AKV has dedicated studios. Any category that has only lock offs, seems to me is going to be counted as a 2 bedroom.

So, y

 

[4luv2cdisney]

I just completed The entire BWV chart and it is close enough to the numbers in the maximum allocation chart for me to believe that there is validity to how I am understanding it. That being said, there are small variances but when the total points (max allocation for every room type for 366 day s) the 2 CHARTS balance with a variance of only 756 points. And it is in favor of the members not DVC.

on to the next

 

[RobDoc]

I have to correct you, the POS doesn't use the word accommodations. The doc doc says that some 2BR Vacation homes can be separated into a Studio Vacation Home and a 1BR Vacation Home for convenience of use only.
The three are all defined in the same way, that's why I say in the doc the lockoff are never explicitly mentioned as something more special. Someone said that there is written somewhere in the POS that the points charts have to be balanced only based on the 2BR. While we all agree this is the system used by Disney, there is no evidence of this in the POS (not that I could find in the SSR POS I have). That's why in that post I say that Disney's interpretation is that there must be at least one possible allocation that balances the resort.

I never said the POS used "accommodations", as I was expressing my personal opinion which I believe we are all allowed to do here. I did quote the statement from the POS in the next sentence in case you missed that. In that quote it states "One-Bedroom and Studio Vacation Homes as a use convenience only." - which I take to mean they are not counted as separate Vacation Homes and only as components of a lock-off 2 Bedroom Villa.

I find it interesting that you are stating what Disney's interpretation must be when it does not specifically state that in the documents you have provided.

Again, we do have very different personal interpretations.

 

[Dean]

I agree.
However the paragraph about the maximum reallocation is interesting for another reason. It shows the intention of who wrote the POS originally: they are clearly stating to potential purchasers that there is no assurance that buying X points would grant them Y number of nights in a season of their choice. So they make the example of the most extreme thing they could think of: eliminate all seasons and the difference between week days and weekends and have every day cost the same. This maximum reallocation does not show a reallocation between different Vacation Home sizes. And this is coherent with the rest of the document: nowhere there is mention that points can be reallocated between different VH, only within the same VH between different Use Days.

It gives protection but it's a fairly large number in all of the POS's I've seen. It's basically evening out all seasons or it's just a single night for a minimum number of points depending on the portion being viewed.

DaveNan, it's clear from all info I've seen that lockout's are counted as a unit, not individually. Some have tried to skew wording to suggest the POS says otherwise by hinting they are separate in various areas but the reality is that the POS would have to explicitly state they are counted separately for it to be so, it does not. So from a legal interpretation standpoint you'd count them as one full villa.

 

[mustinjourney]

It's unlikely you'll do that, all that is likely to happen is you'll get upset. When it comes to people skills and manipulation, as a group, timeshares sales people are among the best and can make even the best trial lawyer look like they have Asperger's. They often won't schedule a current member for a tour.

I’ve actually gone on three different tours after I’ve owned.

Side note, I called quality assurance today to make final payment on a direct add-on I just did a few weeks ago, and while I had that guy on the line, I pressed him about the reallocation.

He was very nice and was actually surprised about the additional lock-off premium that occurred. He said he is not privy to all the info, so if I wanted more direct answers, I’d need to go higher up the food chain.

Second side note, he said that a separate group has been coordinated to take care of all the emails asking about the reallocation.

 

[mustinjourney]

I have to correct you, the POS doesn't use the word accommodations. The doc doc says that some 2BR Vacation homes can be separated into a Studio Vacation Home and a 1BR Vacation Home for convenience of use only.
The three are all defined in the same way, that's why I say in the doc the lockoff are never explicitly mentioned as something more special. Someone said that there is written somewhere in the POS that the points charts have to be balanced only based on the 2BR. While we all agree this is the system used by Disney, there is no evidence of this in the POS (not that I could find in the SSR POS I have). That's why in that post I say that Disney's interpretation is that there must be at least one possible allocation that balances the resort.

The multi-site POS states “Any increase or decrease in the Home Resort Vacation Point reservation requirement for a given Use Day in any Vacation Home pursuant to the Management Company’s right to make this Home Resort Vacation Point adjustment (other than changes in the Lock-Off Premium) must be offset by a corresponding decrease or increase for another Use Day or Days in any other Vacation Home in the same DVC Resort.”

This explicitly states they can, for example, increase all studios in order to decrease bungalows. It also seems to imply that the lock-off premium can be increased.

 

[crvetter]

The multi-site POS states “Any increase or decrease in the Home Resort Vacation Point reservation requirement for a given Use Day in any Vacation Home pursuant to the Management Company’s right to make this Home Resort Vacation Point adjustment (other than changes in the Lock-Off Premium) must be offset by a corresponding decrease or increase for another Use Day or Days in any other Vacation Home in the same DVC Resort.”

This explicitly states they can, for example, increase all studios in order to decrease bungalows. It also seems to imply that the lock-off premium can be increased.

This is a direct quote for your POS. I should note that my POS (CCV) and my multi-site POS does not have the bolded words above. Which seems to me they intentionally made it cloudy. Also the bolded words do not exist in PVB's POS either. Just want to be clear because the resort POS takes priority.

 

[RobDoc]

This is a direct quote for your POS. I should note that my POS (CCV) and my multi-site POS does not have the bolded words above. Which seems to me they intentionally made it cloudy. Also the bolded words do not exist in PVB's POS either. Just want to be clear because the resort POS takes priority.

The resort POS will take priority, unless there has been an amendment since the date of that POS. As clearly noted in most DVC documents, DVC may amend documents whenever they deem necessary.