Would you join a lawsuit against DVC to stop/revert the 2020 reallocation?

[KAT4DISNEY]

They might have backed off the changes for now, but they will align them again at some point and as stated in the email they have the legal right to that. I feel certain if a battle was won it will be at best temporary and I don't think the war will be won. At worst you have kicked a sleeping bear.

I know it's a timeshare but there's no avoiding that it's a Disney timeshare. They are not afraid to stand their ground but they also would not care to get the reputation as a punitive timeshare overlord IMO. Fear of something like that is more or less saying just accept what they say. They are not infallible and have made some legal missteps over the years.

 

[ziravan]

I bet that video disappears from YouTube.

 

[Madame]

I bet that video disappears from YouTube.

Download it with a converter. The Internet is forever.

 

[Dean]

I still think it comes down to "benefit of the members". It's a real stretch to say raising lock-off premiums by raising studios AND one bedrooms benefit a majority of the members.As you've said yourself, they have a fiduciary responsibility to us. And while it doesn't have to benefit ALL members, it at least has to help more than it hurts, or on balance even out. (For instance, the idea of reallocation across seasons...its a sum zero balance.) Raising studios and 1-beds without an equal discount in 2-bed hurts a lot of members while helping very few.

It could well be that once they got all these complaints, they passed these by the lawyers with a focus on that clause. Sure, all the changes were legal in the POS sense, but not legal in the "benefit the members" sense. When they realized they were looking at a lawsuit that they could potentially LOSE, it suddenly became smart to roll back the changes based on "member feedback". Of course this is just opinion, but it's based on the logic. As you said, if they didn't really break any of the legal requirements, then why roll it back?

It's why I think that we won't see them do the same thing next year. They will (I hope) take a closer look at the changes in regards to its effect on members. For instance, maybe they will raise studios and lower 1-bids, but in a way where the lockoff premium goes up slightly, but not enough to get people riled.

I do in fact believe that if they raised studios slightly and lowered 1-bedrooms slightly, it WOULD benefit the members as a whole. I think you'd see more people wanting to book 1-beds instead of studios, which would in turn free up studios. The higher point price on studios would also mean people booking in them couldn't book for as long, which would also free up availability. Yes, it would hurt some members, including myself, but I can easily see the overall benefit and it would improve things at every resort. It might even mean getting studios at 7 months aren't so hard, which even benefits those whose point premium was raised.

Here's the thing, the mandate to reallocate is based on demand ALONE and really no other consideration including no general benefit test. Obviously reallocations will help some and hurt some but it doesn't have to help a majority, just be out of balance.

I don't believe for a second they felt this was not defensible. I tend to think they simply caved. To me the best outcome was they felt they'd done the right thing poorly as they have a history of and decided to be more forthcoming. An alternative is they will do a similar but less aggressive option and see how it goes. As I've said before, I've never seen Disney to have much of a backbone in such matters though I'd thought they had improved in that area.

 

[Johnny D]

Anyone want to write a letter recommending what the point reallocation should look like : (1) increasing studios, (2) decreasing 1 bedrooms and (3) adjusting the seasons - higher for fall and lower for summer. Otherwise maybe they should just leave things alone.

Maybe, but still not what was sold to me or how I understood the program. I would except raising studios in some seasons but lowering studios in other seasons. Lowering points on the weekend and raising points during the week. As long as the total points in each unit category stayed the same. The sales agents always focused people on how many points to buy for a certain amount of days in a certain room category. Horizontal shifts to me are the misleading part of what I was sold. There is no locking in of the price of your future vacations with horizontal shifts IMO.

 

[ParkHoppers]

First off great job to all that were involved. I am shocked that they caved. As far as the 2021 chart goes IMO there is no way they go anywhere near as aggressive as they tried to do on the 2020 chart. Because they backtracked I feel it puts them in a weaker position going forward on this subject. As others have said maybe studios go up slightly and higher points for Fall season. But I don’t believe they will be able to accomplish what they were trying to do for themselves with the 2020 charts. That was an aggressive change IMO. And probably a money grab of sorts. If I had to guess I would say the charts don’t change much at all in the next few years.

 

[Bearval]

Here's the thing, the mandate to reallocate is based on demand ALONE and really no other consideration including no general benefit test. Obviously reallocations will help some and hurt some but it doesn't have to help a majority, just be out of balance.

I don't believe for a second they felt this was not defensible. I tend to think they simply caved. To me the best outcome was they felt they'd done the right thing poorly as they have a history of and decided to be more forthcoming. An alternative is they will do a similar but less aggressive option and see how it goes. As I've said before, I've never seen Disney to have much of a backbone in such matters though I'd thought they had improved in that area.

All you have to do is create a spreadsheet, list all of the different types of rooms and how many of each there are and what the points are for each night and the different seasons. Plug the values in and it will give you a total of the number of points needed for the year for that resort. This will be the hard part but once it is done all you have to do is change the per night point values when DVD does and the total of points for the year should not change. Match the number up with the total the resort is supposed to have. If someone wants to send me the total number of rooms and the different types of rooms I will make the spreadsheet.

 

[DougEMG]

Maybe, but still not what was sold to me or how I understood the program. I would except raising studios in some seasons but lowering studios in other seasons. Lowering points on the weekend and raising points during the week. As long as the total points in each unit category stayed the same. The sales agents always focused people on how many points to buy for a certain amount of days in a certain room category. Horizontal shifts to me are the misleading part of what I was sold. There is no locking in of the price of your future vacations with horizontal shifts IMO.

I wished this was the way things worked, then they couldn't do underhanded things like building point hog bungalow for sale and then later reallocating the points onto the studios once the resort is sold out.

Now I thought they couldn't change total points across the "unit" that is on the title we purchased, since if they changed the total points in the unit, that would change the percent that I would be able to use.

 

[glamdring269]

I am now the proud owner of a DVC 2012 video. Probably the same one I watched back when I bought my current resale. Thanks for posting that link.

 

[Sammie]

You are accepting their claims of having a legal right to do what they did on face value, I think most on this thread are not of that view.

I am accepting that a company as large as Disney knows what they are doing legally. I completely and totally believe what they did was within the POS. Was it popular, was it the right time to do it, probably not. Never will I believe that they adjusted their stance because they were caught by a few people out of hundreds of thousands on an Internet forum. They will adjust at another time.

I do know this, if I mistrusted them as much as many of you did, thought so lowly of them as many of you do, I would sell my points as quickly as possible and get as far away from them as possible. Yes they make mistakes, it's a company run by humans. Do I think they have the best interest of the membership at the basis of the business, yes I do. Do I think many don't like the changes they make at times because it affects them personally and they are not willing to admit that it might just might be better for the entire membership. Nope they are only worried about, what affects them. I guess in some ways they are very much like the Disney they describe.

 

[glamdring269]

I am accepting that a company as large as Disney knows what they are doing legally. I completely and totally believe what they did was within the POS. Was it popular, was it the right time to do it, probably not. Never will I believe that they adjusted their stance because they were caught by a few people out of hundreds of thousands on an Internet forum. They will adjust at another time.

You know it because you validated or because you assume Disney would never do you wrong?

Here's an example of a "company as large as Disney" completely doing the customer wrong:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_emissions_scandal

 

[ParkHoppers]

Couldn’t the reason DVC caved be because under further examination of their changes they realized that it was obvious that the changes were made to benefit breakage and not a balancing of points to benefit members? Hence they make more money with little to no benefit to members? Why wouldn’t they be worried about a lawsuit in that case. I think this has a lot to do with them caving. Once they knew their were members who were motivated to get to the bottom of things DVC knew their goose could be cooked and backed down.

 

[Sammie]

You know it because you validated or because you assume Disney would never do you wrong?

Here's an example of a "company as large as Disney" completely doing the customer wrong:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_emissions_scandal

I most certainly think they can make mistakes, they are a company run by humans. Do I think they still try to strike a balance between serving the membership and making money, yes I do or I would sell.

And sorry but I don't consider Wikipedia to be a sorce of facts. You do know that anyone can change those pages at any time.

 

[glamdring269]

I most certainly think they can make mistakes, they are a company run by humans. Do I think they still try to strike a balance between serving the membership and making money, yes I do or I would sell.

And sorry but I don't consider Wikipedia to be a sorce of facts. You do know that anyone can change those pages at any time.

You've never heard of the Volkswagon emissions scandal?

https://www.bbc.com/news/business-44005844
http://fortune.com/2018/02/06/volkswagen-vw-emissions-scandal-penalties/
https://www.npr.org/tags/443453659/volkswagen-emissions-scandal
https://www.epa.gov/newsreleases/fo...acy-and-wire-fraud-diesel-emissions-scandal-0

Hopefully one of those sources will meet your odd criteria.

 

[Madame]

Do I think many don't like the changes they make at times because it affects them personally and they are not willing to admit that it might just might be better for the entire membership.

Yeah, this doesn’t apply to a lot of us. I reserve 2bd BCV in March & would have benefited, but realized the reallocation was grossly inappropriate from the beginning. Perhaps if you haven’t read the thread skim back through & you will find that the most vocal here were looking at this from anything but a personal benefit perspective.

 

[hayesdvc]

Can someone post the link(s) showing the new change in 2020 point allocation? Outside of the DVC site's chart itself, are there any other commentary?

 

[TheMick424]

I am accepting that a company as large as Disney knows what they are doing legally. I completely and totally believe what they did was within the POS. Was it popular, was it the right time to do it, probably not. Never will I believe that they adjusted their stance because they were caught by a few people out of hundreds of thousands on an Internet forum. They will adjust at another time.

I do know this, if I mistrusted them as much as many of you did, thought so lowly of them as many of you do, I would sell my points as quickly as possible and get as far away from them as possible. Yes they make mistakes, it's a company run by humans. Do I think they have the best interest of the membership at the basis of the business, yes I do. Do I think many don't like the changes they make at times because it affects them personally and they are not willing to admit that it might just might be better for the entire membership. Nope they are only worried about, what affects them. I guess in some ways they are very much like the Disney they describe.

They very well may have been within the legal confines of the POS but the change was generating a lot of negative PR. Clearly they need to go back and rethink their communications strategy for the future. Should have been prepared with crafted speaking points, etc.

 

[RobDoc]

I am now the proud owner of a DVC 2012 video. Probably the same one I watched back when I bought my current resale. Thanks for posting that link.

If you take a look at the 2012 POS, the same principle is stated in print. This has been mentioned , scanned, discussed and posted in this thread numerous times for numerous resorts and the same language was used when the original sales materials and videos were produced.

While I 'm happy for you to be a "proud owner of a DVC 2012 video", the same information is included in printed version for every DVC Resort. I see nothing in the video that suggests a smoking gun and feel it expresses the actual DVC policy quite nicely.

 

[glamdring269]

If you take a look at the 2012 POS, the same principle is stated in print. This has been mentioned , scanned, discussed and posted in this thread numerous times for numerous resorts and the same language was used when the original sales materials and videos were produced.

While I 'm happy for you to be a "proud owner of a DVC 2012 video", the same information is included in printed version for every DVC Resort. I see nothing in the video that suggests a smoking gun and feel it expresses the actual DVC policy quite nicely.

I agree with everything you said. However if the premise of this thread ever has to move forward, and I hope it never comes to that, a marketing video like that is a nice bit of icing on the cake of everything else you mentioned that demonstrates similar statements.

 

[DVCDisneyRunner]

If you take a look at the 2012 POS, the same principle is stated in print. This has been mentioned , scanned, discussed and posted in this thread numerous times for numerous resorts and the same language was used when the original sales materials and videos were produced.

While I 'm happy for you to be a "proud owner of a DVC 2012 video", the same information is included in printed version for every DVC Resort. I see nothing in the video that suggests a smoking gun and feel it expresses the actual DVC policy quite nicely.

From the transcript of the video:

"drumroll please...
each Disney Vacation Club Resort has a total number of vacation points assigned to it.
aside from normal point fluctuation from year to year this number will never increase unless accommodations are added to a resort and
while vacation points may be adjusted from year to year it's important to know that any increase or decrease to any given day must be offset by an equal increase or decrease for another day."

The use of "any" is much more inclusive then what is stated in the POS. This is especially true in the context of the video as a whole. They taught how they have studios, 1 bedrooms, 2 bedrooms... for places like SSR. The POS only sees them as 2 bedrooms.

Also I can't find where this frame is covered in the POS with this kinda of clarity: