Would you join a lawsuit against DVC to stop/revert the 2020 reallocation?

[Dean]

Looks like a win for the members. They are revising the point charts:

View attachment 378174

If accurate, that's great news.

 

[DaveNan]

directly on the DVC web page - new charts!!! revised charts look just like 2019

 

[DaveNan]

Thank you to all who raised a stink!!!!

 

[TheMick424]

Someone on another site just posted this, saying they got it from DVC after talking to them about the reallocation. I have no idea if it is true or not.

--------

Dear Ryan,



Thank you for reaching out to our team.



Disney Vacation Club Management has revised the 2020 Vacation Points Charts originally posted on the Member website on Dec. 19, 2018.



As we have stated, the reallocation of vacation point values is outlined in the Membership Agreement and is an important part of meeting Members’ needs and expectations.



The originally posted 2020 Vacation Points Charts were consistent with the Membership Agreement. However, Disney Vacation Club Management listened to our Members’ feedback and decided to more closely align them with the 2019 Vacation Points Charts, with some adjustments for the 2020 calendar.



This will give Disney Vacation Club Management time to further analyze demand and usage patterns, along with Member feedback, and adjust Vacation Points Charts for 2021 and beyond, as appropriate.



Thank you,

Yvonne



Yvonne Chang

Director, Club Management & Regulatory Affairs

Wow!

 

[mustinjourney]

And you think *****ing on forums gets nowhere? I would say this thread, along with the one on ***********.com, and the many calls and emails led to this result.

 

[Goofy DVC]

I’v been following this thread from the beginning and just wanted to thank everyone for their knowledge, wisdom, resolve, and hard work. Looks like it paid off. I especially want to acknowledge and thank:
Zavandor
crvetter
Skier_pete
Dean
tjkraz
miTnosnhor
mustinjourney
Webmasterdoc

To name a few.
Thank you!!!

 

[Bullishondisney]

Hey guys, I am the 'Ryan' in the email from DVC Yvonne. I can assure you that it is real.

 

[Shelly S]

I have been a BWV member since 1999 and have accepted the many changes over the years. I have not posted in this thread, but have been following it every day. Thank you to all the members who pursued the issues with the 2020 point charts. Before purchasing, I can remember asking the sales guide many questions about the points changing, specifically for studios, and was told several times if a studio goes up in one season it must go down in another. He also told me that if I use my points wisely I could get almost three weeks a year out of them, and really this is still true today. The last reallocation of weekdays/weekends fell within what I believed to be acceptable, this reallocation seemed wrong. I believe the sales guides back then never thought a reallocation like this could/would happen. I still love my membership of 210 points and almost always use it for a studio. Would I like more points, definitely, but I refuse to pay today’s prices and I use the points I have. Thanks again and congrats to all who worked on the reallocation so far, hopefully 2021 does not see the same issues.

 

[Madame]

And you think *****ing on forums gets nowhere? I would say this thread, along with the one on ***********.com, and the many calls and emails led to this result.

Absolutely

 

[JETSDAD]

Excellent work to all who made the effort to really push this with management. At the very least it will make them take another look at the legalities of this sort of move and hopefully be more open with any future changes.

 

[CMNJ]

Wow I’m really surprised they went back to the old charts. I didn’t look at all of them but I checked a handful and compared the studios in 2019 and 2020 and didn’t see any differences. This is great news for me personally as we almost always book studios. I’m even happier to see they are going to look more in depth to this as I like many think the increased costs for 1 BR didn’t make sense. Hopefully this means it really wasn’t anything nefarious with regards to exploiting the lock off premium (or if it was they are concerned at the backlash from owners).

 

[WebmasterDoc]

Looks like a win for the members. They are revising the point charts:

View attachment 378174

 

[bobbiwoz]

Someone on another site just posted this, saying they got it from DVC after talking to them about the reallocation. I have no idea if it is true or not.

--------

Dear Ryan,



Thank you for reaching out to our team.



Disney Vacation Club Management has revised the 2020 Vacation Points Charts originally posted on the Member website on Dec. 19, 2018.



As we have stated, the reallocation of vacation point values is outlined in the Membership Agreement and is an important part of meeting Members’ needs and expectations.



The originally posted 2020 Vacation Points Charts were consistent with the Membership Agreement. However, Disney Vacation Club Management listened to our Members’ feedback and decided to more closely align them with the 2019 Vacation Points Charts, with some adjustments for the 2020 calendar.



This will give Disney Vacation Club Management time to further analyze demand and usage patterns, along with Member feedback, and adjust Vacation Points Charts for 2021 and beyond, as appropriate.



Thank you,

Yvonne



Yvonne Chang

Director, Club Management & Regulatory Affairs

Really?? That would be great!
The website is down for me.

 

[mikebb]

Awesome, thanks to all the dedicated members on here! Hopefully this sticks!

 

[Johnny D]

Someone on another site just posted this, saying they got it from DVC after talking to them about the reallocation. I have no idea if it is true or not.

--------

Dear Ryan,

Remarkable if true and the right thing to do! We shall see.

Thank you for reaching out to our team.



Disney Vacation Club Management has revised the 2020 Vacation Points Charts originally posted on the Member website on Dec. 19, 2018.



As we have stated, the reallocation of vacation point values is outlined in the Membership Agreement and is an important part of meeting Members’ needs and expectations.



The originally posted 2020 Vacation Points Charts were consistent with the Membership Agreement. However, Disney Vacation Club Management listened to our Members’ feedback and decided to more closely align them with the 2019 Vacation Points Charts, with some adjustments for the 2020 calendar.



This will give Disney Vacation Club Management time to further analyze demand and usage patterns, along with Member feedback, and adjust Vacation Points Charts for 2021 and beyond, as appropriate.



Thank you,

Yvonne



Yvonne Chang

Director, Club Management & Regulatory Affairs

remarkable if true and the right thing to do! We shall see.

 

[CaliforniaGirl09]

I’v been following this thread from the beginning and just wanted to thank everyone for their knowledge, wisdom, resolve, and hard work. Looks like it paid off. I especially want to acknowledge and thank:
Zavandor
crvetter
Skier_pete
Dean
tjkraz
miTnosnhor
mustinjourney
Webmasterdoc

To name a few.
Thank you!!!

Hey guys, I am the 'Ryan' in the email from DVC Yvonne. I can assure you that it is real.

Excellent work to all who made the effort to really push this with management. At the very least it will make them take another look at the legalities of this sort of move and hopefully be more open with any future changes.

This is amazing news. A huge thanks to all who put so much time on this from me as well.

 

[CMNJ]

remarkable if true and the right thing to do! We shall see.

This is definitely true. If you log onto the member site and look at the point charts for 2020 they have been revised and are the same as 2019 (or close to 2019 as I didn’t examine them all)

 

[CMNJ]

I tried to post screen shots I took of the new charts but they looked blurred so I removed them.

 

[asw1520]

remarkable if true and the right thing to do! We shall see.

DVC have published the new point charts for 2020 and many members have been negatively impacted. This caused many of us to go and (re)read the POS and possibly discover that the reallocation done may not be legal in its current form.
The most contentious points are:

1) Reallocations should leave the total points needed to book one unit/vacation home unchanged

Reallocations are described in the POS document for each resort in "Exhibit G - Disney Vacation Membership Agreement for XXX RESORT"
For SSR (and as far as I know, every resort, please point out any resort with different wording), the reallocations are authorised as follows:

“In order to meet the Club Members’ needs and expectations as evidenced by fluctuations in Use Day demand at the Condominium experienced by DVCMC during a given calendar year, DVCMC may, in its sole discretion, increase or decrease the Home resort Vacation Point requirements of a given Use Day within a given Vacation Home during the given calendar year by any amount not to exceed twenty percent (20%) of the Home Resort Vacation Points required to reserve a Use Day during the previous calendar year; provided, however, that the total number of Home Resort Vacation points existing within a given Unit at any time may not be increased or decreased because of such reallocation. The twenty percent (20%) reallocation limitation shall not apply to increases or decreases of Home Resort Vacation Point reservation requirements relating to designated periods of high demand which do not occur on the same Use Day each year. Any increase or decrease in the Home Resort Vacation point reservation requirement for a given Use Day pursuant to DVCMC’s right to make this Home resort Vacation Point adjustment must be offset by a corresponding increase or decrease for another Use Day or Use Days.”

For a long time we have thought that Disney could do whatever they wanted with the point charts as long as the total points needed to book the whole resort for the whole year remained unchanged. Reading the POS is seems this is not the case.

• The first highlighted sentence seems to restrict reallocations only to balance demand during the year, not across different vacation home sizes. If bungalows seat empty and studios fly off the shelves at 11 months, a reallocation cannot be used to balance demand
• The second sentence says points can be shifted only "within a given Vacation Home". A Vacation Home is defined as "portion of a unit designed and intended for separate use and occupancy". This allows to move points only within the same room type. They can lower points for a studio for weekends and increase week days, they cannot increase studios and 1BR and lower 2BR
• The third sentence says the total points allocated to a Unit cannot change. It seems the reallocation they did for the SSR treehouses is not legal, as all the treehouses are declared in their own units. Poly Bungalows are in different units from the studios, so the 2020 reallocation is not legal. Also, usually a unit includes different room types and different units within the same resort can have different compositions. If a unit includes 2 dedicated studios and 2 lockoffs, another might include only dedicated 2BR. Balancing units with different compositions might prove impossible if points are moved across different vacation home types.

In the first years of DVC, when a balancing act was needed to balance demand within the same room types, DVC created different booking categories with the same price point. This applied to BW view (same points as garden), and OKW HH (same points as the rest of the rooms). Those separate booking categories are a good advantage for owners, because they can book the better rooms before the 7 months window without paying a premium in points. Later DVC started moving points around balancing the points across the new booking categories. It might have been in good faith (at the beginning), but it doesn't seem to be allowed by the POS and it opened the way for strategic point allocations like the Poly bungalows: the high point cost for the bungalows allowed DVC to sell a lot of points while showing the points required by studios to potential owners.


2) The lockoff premium
The point needed to book a studio + a 1BR are greater than the points needed to book a 2BR. This has always been the case since DVC opening. It is called "lockoff premium" (and can be justified by the fact that managing two reservations can be more onerous).
For example, in 2019, in Adventure season:
- studio standard: 11 points
- 1BR standard: 22 points
- 2BR standard: 30 points (and not 11+22)
The lockoff premium is 3 points.
In 2020 the lockoff premium has increased, as both studios and 1BR have increased while the 2BR has decreased:
- studio standard: 12 points
- 1BR standard: 24 points
- 2BR standard: 28 points
The lockoff premium will be 8 points, nearly trebled.

VGF is the only resort there there is explicit mention of the lockoff with the wording authorising DVC to modify it at will. For other resorts there is no mention of it.
It is not clear if the lockoff premium is even legal in the first place, but it has always been there so it probably is. However it doesn't seem right that DVC can increase it at will. This would violate the reallocation rule written above (each Vacation Home/Unit must keep the same number of points constant over the whole year).
Increase the lockoff premium seems to benefit only Disney. The extra availability generated by the lockoff premium goes into the breakage inventory which is then booked by Disney for cash which is paid back into the resorts budget to lower the dues. However there is a cap to how much is paid back (2,5% of the total budget) and that cap has been already reached every year in the past. So an increase of the lockoff premium will cause more cash income that will be kept by Disney.

3) Unbalanced rebalance
Members have strong evidence that the least popular room size is the 1BR. Studios are the first to go, then 2BR and finally after a lot of time, 1BR. Also, the most common last minute availability is for 1BR.
So it seems that a reallocation increasing both studios and 1BR in favor of 2BR doesn't make sense.
The only possible explanation is that Disney want to push members to book larger vacation homes for the benefit of selling add-ons and larger contracts. At the expense of people who bought to stay in studios.


What is the plan?
In this phase we are still gathering feedback and information. I have recently enquired Disney about the legality of reallocations across different vacation homes/units and I have yet to receive a reply.
Previously I questioned the legality of the increase of the lockoff premium and received a call back by a CM who just seemed to read from a script not addressing the problem: she told me the reallocation happened to balance demand cross seasons, but she seemed unaware about what the lockoff premium was and what the actual policy was about it.

We now have to gather potential support for a possible lawsuit.
The best outcome would be that given the weight of many members willing to pursue a lawsuit, DVCMC management would be willing to reconsider their decision and revert the changes. If not, I'll find a way for all people to communicate easily and decide what the best way to move forward will be.
If you want to join this group, please reply below. It would be important to have as much public support as we can get, but if you prefer to stay anonymous, please PM me.

Please note: as members we will pay with our dues for the legal expenses for DVCMC to fight us.

What will we ask
1/25/2019 will be the first day the new points charts will became effective, as it's the first day it'll be possible to book in 2020. As a matter of urgency, we ask DVC to suspend the application of the new points charts and use the same 2019 charts, only adjusted for floating holidays. However this could be achieved only if we find an agreement with DVCMC management. A Lawsuit will require a lot more time.

Currently, my intention is to ask:
- cancel any reallocation done (even in the past) that modified the number of points needed to book every vacation home
- remove the lockoff premium from the point charts
- create new booking categories for the rooms that have been reallocated in the past.
However, those points are open for discussions, if you would like to modify them or add other points, please post below.

How can you help?
Members reading the DISboards and informed about what's happening are a very small minority of the membership base. I am ready to bet that most people don't even know that the 2020 charts have been published, let alone that a reallocation happened.
So it is important to raise awareness in any way. Please post on Twitter, Facebook and other social media a link to this page. If you belong to any other forum or Facebook group, please post a recap of this post. Send a letter to the press. I have had a journalist interested in the topic and he's going to contact DVCMC management for an official position.

I am in, the viduciary duty of DVCMC does not stop at the organization but extend to the officers of the organization. Officers of DVCMC can be held personally liable for damages and penalty. I saw this happen in the Shore of Panama Condo association board who each were personally liable for multi million $ due to breach of fiduciary duty.

In the past it is very challenging to organize a suit but now days with multimedia, go fund me and internet this becoming easier to organize.

A suit will increase in transparency within the DVCMC specifically with regards to allocation and demand management areas. Go for it...

 

[crvetter]

Here's the definition from 721
This is clear in stating that unless here is specific language to the contrary, they are counted as one. For DVC there isn't and thus it's the default of the entire villa. There should be no confusion in this area for DVC or the state intent. Clearly the state's intent was for lockoff's to be treated as a whole unless specifically designated otherwise by the developer.

I reviewed the POS for Bluegreen which has some similarities. It allows for demand balancing as well but there are some key differences. It's held in a trust but the points are conveyed as specific units for a specific period fo time. Often it's a portion of a lockoff and in some cases, it's not for a full week. The separate components of a lockoff are equal to the entire lockoff cost to reserve though with BG. Something like a studio gets 7000 its, a 1 BR 8000 pmts and the same 2 BR 15000 pts. I have Marriott's somewhere but I don't have it handy right now.

This isn’t really what I was asking. I was asking if they had language regarding leveling of the seasons and right to use a single night for a given point.