Would you cross a picket line?

What you seem to forget is that the vast majority of us actually are workers in the United States, so we know that what you're claiming is utterly false

And I would be one of them! I have worked for the same company for 18 years and I know that if I have a problem I have a support system from my boss on up to the President of the company. We have an HR department that is in place to make sure that all of our employees are treated fairly and to take care of us, get us help if we need it, support us.

Are all companies like that, no, but there are plenty more out there like that.
 
I belong to a union and work for what would be the equivalent to AT&T here in Canada. We were on strike for 4 months in 2004 for better pension and benefit plans but mostly for job security. The company had already contracted out certain departments like repair service to India!! Large corporatons have no problem sending your work overseas to save money. It was a peaceful strike but the relationships between management and unionized employees was never the same. Some managers were able to buy boats, cars, motorcycles and even pay off their homes with the money made during those months. And some of them seemed to flaunt this after we returned to work. We gained some things and lost some with the new contract but overall it was worth it and because of my experience I would NEVER under any circumstances cross a picket line....ever.
 
Basically 2 reasons: 1) to make sure they are 'caught up' with current procedures and can take over the job seamlessly and 2) because they can give them lessons and teachings in an less-structured, free-communication type style...that is impossible to conduct in a union environment.


Not true. I know many union employees that receive ongoing training to keep up to date on procedures and new products.

As a matter of fact, if they don't complete the training, they may not get paid for a job that they did.
 
That is like asking why people object to others stealing, assuming that there was a law in place that excused a certain set of people from the laws against stealing, as, in this case, there are laws in place to excused unionists from laws against criminal conspiracy for colluding to manipulate the labor market.

What you're forgetting is that some of the Dept of Labor laws in place do not apply to many professions. As a result, many of them have formed/joined unions so that they can negotiate a contract to include the same benefits that others get under the law without a contract.

Why should certain professions have protection under a law but not others?

I posted an example of this a few pages ago but I'll post it again here for those that have missed it.

From the US Dept of Labor

Exemptions from Overtime Pay Only

1. Certain commissioned employees of retail or service establishments; auto, truck, trailer, farm implement, boat, or aircraft sales-workers; or parts-clerks and mechanics servicing autos, trucks, or farm implements, who are employed by non-manufacturing establishments primarily engaged in selling these items to ultimate purchasers;
2. Employees of railroads and air carriers, taxi drivers, certain employees of motor carriers, seamen on American vessels, and local delivery employees paid on approved trip rate plans;
3. Announcers, news editors, and chief engineers of certain non-metropolitan broadcasting stations;
4. Domestic service workers living in the employer's residence;
5. Employees of motion picture theaters; and
6. Farmworkers.
 

If that is true, maybe it's because their family members were in jobs that are not protected under the Dept of Labor laws and needed the negotiating power of a union to give them the same benefits that others get without a union under the law.

I definitely agree with this historically. That's why the National Labor Relations Act and the Railway Labor Act were passed in the first place. Nobody's job was protected and the Department of Labor was a toothless organization. People needed the unions to protect them because they truly were powerless with respect to their employers. When the government did its cost/benefit analysis re unions, the benefits clearly outweighed the costs.

Things have come a long way since the turn of the 20th Century, however, which is why I have questioned whether unions still serve the same purpose and whether the benefits still outweigh the costs. I tend to think that the costs outweigh the benefits, but that's just my opinion based on observation and study of the law and American and global business in general. I can definitely acknowledge that I may be wrong.

Still, so long as companies can produce goods and services more cheaply in other countries, they'll do it, because the companies are motivated by providing returns to investors. This is true whether the company is organized or not.
 
Thats all well and good if you feel you don't need that, but why begrudge it to others? We all know what I wrote is true about many companies and their treatment of workers. It is absolutely fact. I myself make less money than I did 8 years ago. Unions will probably all fade away anyway, outsourcing has ensured that and the loss of all our manufacturing companies here, etc. Here is some interesting info about outsourcing. Outsourcing does not stem from unions it stems from tax breaks and the ability now with a global economy to make more money sending work overseas, paying a worker pennies and many times slave labor for a profit. In your mind, they may not constitute greed, even if it means destroying America and running it into the ground. (Another reason we need to protect our workers.) Others such as myself call it what it is. Read below. Why should they keep their work here when they have tax breaks, etc., when they can hire people for pennies? Tell me why, tell me how we are going to compete with that. Funny thing if you read below, white collar jobs also are now being outsourced.

While low wages are the main reason for outsourcing, one corporate tax break provides an important incentive for the practice. Under U.S. law, companies can indefinitely defer any payment of federal taxes on profits earned overseas. The law states they are to pay taxes on that income only when they return those profits to the United States.

I don't begrudge union protections to others. I merely point out that these protections come at a cost, i.e., the risk that the organized company will relocate to a different area because it can produce its goods more cheaply with a non-union workforce. That's a fact, and is corroborated by the excerpt that you posted.

Okay... now to the rest of this comment. You point out that unions are not the cause of outsourcing, but that in fact it is tax breaks. Then you quote something that says "low wages are the main reason for outsourcing" but goes on to acknowledge that tax breaks also play a part. That's exactly what I've been saying. I said that unions contribute to outsourcing, not that they are the sole cause.

Unions are a part of outsourcing because those unionized garment makers, automakers, whatever, tend to require higher wages and benefits than the company could get away with if it produces goods overseas. Again, for the tenth time, I'm not saying unions are the only culprit; I'm saying that they have contributed to the situation. It's clear from the quote you put in that comment that this is true; the author cites how much cheaper it is wage-wise to produce goods in countries where the corporations can take advantage of lax labor laws.

I grant you that companies take advantage of tax breaks in moving overseas. The quote you put in the comment doesn't actually describe how the tax works very well; the author doesn't have a clear understanding of how it works and is clearly just trying to make a point without being clear. Still, the general point is valid, i.e., that companies take advantage of tax breaks to move to other countries. Still, the main reason they move is cheaper cost of production.

As to one other point that I think you make in this comment and in a couple of later ones... I think you mentioned something about how I must think that it's okay that companies go to sweatshop nations and force people to work for pennies a day. I don't think that at all. I've never come out one way or another on the moral question of whether what the companies do is right, and I don't think we've actually discussed it yet.

Instead, what I'm saying is that this is what companies do. Whether it's right or wrong, companies make goods in sweatshop countries because it's cheaper, because they need to grab market share and make a good profit, and because United States import/export laws permit them to do it. Unless these things change (i.e., it becomes just as expensive to produce a shoe in China as it does in the United States or unless the government requires everything to be produced in America) companies will continue to operate this way. Some people get upset about sweatshop goods that they buy from Wal-Mart, but most Americans turn a blind eye because they want the cheapest widget they can find and because those sweatshops are thousands of miles away.

I know a bunch of horror stories about sweatshop operations even in US territories. What happens is really terrible. But most people in the United States don't care enough about it to actually demand that companies not make goods in sweatshops... why? Because of money. It's sad but it's true.
 
I don't begrudge union protections to others. I merely point out that these protections come at a cost, i.e., the risk that the organized company will relocate to a different area because it can produce its goods more cheaply with a non-union workforce. That's a fact, and is corroborated by the excerpt that you posted.

Okay... now to the rest of this comment. You point out that unions are not the cause of outsourcing, but that in fact it is tax breaks. Then you quote something that says "low wages are the main reason for outsourcing" but goes on to acknowledge that tax breaks also play a part. That's exactly what I've been saying. I said that unions contribute to outsourcing, not that they are the sole cause.

Unions are a part of outsourcing because those unionized garment makers, automakers, whatever, tend to require higher wages and benefits than the company could get away with if it produces goods overseas. Again, for the tenth time, I'm not saying unions are the only culprit; I'm saying that they have contributed to the situation. It's clear from the quote you put in that comment that this is true; the author cites how much cheaper it is wage-wise to produce goods in countries where the corporations can take advantage of lax labor laws.

I grant you that companies take advantage of tax breaks in moving overseas. The quote you put in the comment doesn't actually describe how the tax works very well; the author doesn't have a clear understanding of how it works and is clearly just trying to make a point without being clear. Still, the general point is valid, i.e., that companies take advantage of tax breaks to move to other countries. Still, the main reason they move is cheaper cost of production.

As to one other point that I think you make in this comment and in a couple of later ones... I think you mentioned something about how I must think that it's okay that companies go to sweatshop nations and force people to work for pennies a day. I don't think that at all. I've never come out one way or another on the moral question of whether what the companies do is right, and I don't think we've actually discussed it yet.

Instead, what I'm saying is that this is what companies do. Whether it's right or wrong, companies make goods in sweatshop countries because it's cheaper, because they need to grab market share and make a good profit, and because United States import/export laws permit them to do it. Unless these things change (i.e., it becomes just as expensive to produce a shoe in China as it does in the United States or unless the government requires everything to be produced in America) companies will continue to operate this way. Some people get upset about sweatshop goods that they buy from Wal-Mart, but most Americans turn a blind eye because they want the cheapest widget they can find and because those sweatshops are thousands of miles away.

I know a bunch of horror stories about sweatshop operations even in US territories. What happens is really terrible. But most people in the United States don't care enough about it to actually demand that companies not make goods in sweatshops... why? Because of money. It's sad but it's true.
I totally agree with that. Unions definately play a part in outsourcing. But, like you say, they are not the sole reason.
 
/
What you're forgetting is that some of the Dept of Labor laws in place do not apply to many professions. As a result, many of them have formed/joined unions so that they can negotiate a contract to include the same benefits that others get under the law without a contract.

Why should certain professions have protection under a law but not others?

I posted an example of this a few pages ago but I'll post it again here for those that have missed it.

From the US Dept of Labor

Exemptions from Overtime Pay Only

1. Certain commissioned employees of retail or service establishments; auto, truck, trailer, farm implement, boat, or aircraft sales-workers; or parts-clerks and mechanics servicing autos, trucks, or farm implements, who are employed by non-manufacturing establishments primarily engaged in selling these items to ultimate purchasers;
2. Employees of railroads and air carriers, taxi drivers, certain employees of motor carriers, seamen on American vessels, and local delivery employees paid on approved trip rate plans;
3. Announcers, news editors, and chief engineers of certain non-metropolitan broadcasting stations;
4. Domestic service workers living in the employer's residence;
5. Employees of motion picture theaters; and
6. Farmworkers.


They do have protections. Do you honestly believe if these unions were disbanded, that the federal and state employment laws that protect non-union jobs would not be enforced?
 
They do have protections. Do you honestly believe if these unions were disbanded, that the federal and state employment laws that protect non-union jobs would not be enforced?

It's not a matter of union or non-union. The information on the US Dept of Labor website clearly lists the profession that are EXEMPT from the law.

Here's a link to the D of L website so that you can read it for yourself.

http://www.dol.gov/esa/whd/regs/compliance/hrg.htm

Can you post a link to the law that lists the protections that your talking about?
 
I definitely agree with this historically. That's why the National Labor Relations Act and the Railway Labor Act were passed in the first place. Nobody's job was protected and the Department of Labor was a toothless organization. People needed the unions to protect them because they truly were powerless with respect to their employers. When the government did its cost/benefit analysis re unions, the benefits clearly outweighed the costs.

Things have come a long way since the turn of the 20th Century, however, which is why I have questioned whether unions still serve the same purpose and whether the benefits still outweigh the costs. I tend to think that the costs outweigh the benefits, but that's just my opinion based on observation and study of the law and American and global business in general. I can definitely acknowledge that I may be wrong.

Still, so long as companies can produce goods and services more cheaply in other countries, they'll do it, because the companies are motivated by providing returns to investors. This is true whether the company is organized or not.

Taking a look at the list, there are many jobs on that list that are very unlikely to be outsourced. How would you outsource a movie theater employee's job? Would a car dealer send a car out of the country so that it could be repaired? If so, it's unlikely that the customer would be happy that he/she had to wait days for the repaired car to come back. How about delivery companies. How are they going to outsource their deliveries? I suppose that news broadcasts could be done from another country but it would be difficult for them to send a reporter to the scene.

The point that I'm trying to make is that not all professions are protected under the law. The ones that are not, seem to be the ones that are likely to be affiliated with a union. Maybe if the law was changed, we would see a decrease in union representation.
 
It's not a matter of union or non-union. The information on the US Dept of Labor website clearly lists the profession that are EXEMPT from the law.

Here's a link to the D of L website so that you can read it for yourself.

http://www.dol.gov/esa/whd/regs/compliance/hrg.htm

Can you post a link to the law that lists the protections that your talking about?


They are exempt from the law ONLY because the union has protections in place which are equal or similar to the employee protections afforded by federal/state laws. You have the DOL site. All the protections for non-union employees are listed there.
 
Taking a look at the list, there are many jobs on that list that are very unlikely to be outsourced. How would you outsource a movie theater employee's job? Would a car dealer send a car out of the country so that it could be repaired? If so, it's unlikely that the customer would be happy that he/she had to wait days for the repaired car to come back. How about delivery companies. How are they going to outsource their deliveries? I suppose that news broadcasts could be done from another country but it would be difficult for them to send a reporter to the scene.

The point that I'm trying to make is that not all professions are protected under the law. The ones that are not, seem to be the ones that are likely to be affiliated with a union. Maybe if the law was changed, we would see a decrease in union representation.

Those are all good points. There is a reason for the exemption; income for a lot of those professions is not necessarily tied to the hours worked, but instead to output and production (e.g., taxi driver comp = fares earned, salesman comp = commissions on sales). I'm exempt from overtime pay and the minimum wage laws, myself and I notice I'm not included in the list you posted. As a lawyer, I fall into the "learned professional" category and am treated differently under the labor statutes than most employees. IIRC, it's Section 13(a)(1) of the Fair Labor Standards Act. I'm not affiliated with a union, and as far as I know, there aren't any unions I could join even if I wanted to.

My vague recollection of the reasoning behind the "learned professional" exemption in the FLSA (it's been a while since I took employment law) is that professionals are compensated for their knowledge and expertise applied to certain tasks and projects, not necessarily for the hours it takes to complete the task. Thus, I'm an exempt.
 
My job is FLSA exempt and non-union. It's always been exempt from the law and never been union. It's never bothered me at all. I protect myself by making sure that the value of my work exceeds its cost, so companies are happy to have me work them. If either of us don't deliver on the other's expectations, we'll terminate the agreement. They'll find someone else and I'll go work elsewhere.

Personally, I've always hated it when I had to manage non-exempt people. It's a pain having to deal with the bureaucratic nuances of what is allowed and what isn't. I once got into a serious argument with the CFO of a company I worked at many years ago over FLSA issues. What a pain. I'd be much happier if the law got out of the picture and let people and companies reach mutually agreeable terms of employment.
 
They are exempt from the law ONLY because the union has protections in place which are equal or similar to the employee protections afforded by federal/state laws. You have the DOL site. All the protections for non-union employees are listed there.
I was wondering about this. Are they exempt from the law because they already had unions, or do they have unions because they are exempt from the law? Which came first, the chicken or the egg? ;)

Also, are some of these jobs covered under other laws? The posted list of jobs exempt from overtime pay is specifically under the FLSA. Are some of these jobs covered by different labor acts? Isn't there a Railway Employee Act and a Agricultural Workers Act? I can't remember exactly and haven't researched it today, but I seem to recall that certain jobs have more specific laws that apply only to them, and thus would understandably be excluded from this more general Labor Standards Act.
 
They are exempt from the law ONLY because the union has protections in place which are equal or similar to the employee protections afforded by federal/state laws. You have the DOL site. All the protections for non-union employees are listed there.

You speak of "the union" as if all unions are the same and everyone that belongs to a union has the same contract. That is simply not true.

I do have to ask, where is the protection for people that are in any of these profession and not part of a union? Not every car repair shop employee is a union member. Not every movie theater employee is a union member.... Where is the link to the laws that have been talked about that are in place to protect these workers?
 
Those are all good points. There is a reason for the exemption; income for a lot of those professions is not necessarily tied to the hours worked, but instead to output and production (e.g., taxi driver comp = fares earned, salesman comp = commissions on sales). .


I'm really trying to keep this general but it's getting hard because I don't want this to turn into a he said/she said debate but it's getting hard. I'm going to try and keep this general but I probably won't succeed. :eek:

Again, the point that I was stating is that some jobs are protected under the law and others are not. Why does a restaurant worker deserve these protections but a movie theater employee does not? The ticket clerk at our local theater is paid hourly, not on commission. Why is it OK to force him/her to work overtime for regular pay while the clerk at Target gets time and a half?

If the laws were changed to give all workers the same legal rights, maybe there wouldn't be a need for unions. Most of the jobs on the list that I gave are not commission based jobs.
 
I was wondering about this. Are they exempt from the law because they already had unions, or do they have unions because they are exempt from the law? Which came first, the chicken or the egg? ;)

Also, are some of these jobs covered under other laws? The posted list of jobs exempt from overtime pay is specifically under the FLSA. Are some of these jobs covered by different labor acts? Isn't there a Railway Employee Act and a Agricultural Workers Act? I can't remember exactly and haven't researched it today, but I seem to recall that certain jobs have more specific laws that apply only to them, and thus would understandably be excluded from this more general Labor Standards Act.

I can't find any law that protect auto, boat or farm equipment shops, nor can I find any laws that cover taxi drivers, movie theater employees...

I did find FELA that protects railroad workers hurt on the job.

There have been posts here that claim such laws are in place but we still haven't been provided any links or additional information.
 
I...Why is it OK to force him/her to work overtime for regular pay while the clerk at Target gets time and a half?
...

With a few exceptions, nobody can be forced to work overtime for regular pay. A company can request it, but you have the option of quitting. You can negotiate an employment contract that requires it. To me, the question should be "why are people in some job categories free to negotiate mutually acceptable work conditions while people in others must accept rules dictated by the state?"

Imagine that you love your job and want to work 60 hours a week but the extra hours aren't worth 1.5x your normal pay to the company. They'd love for you to work a 1x pay and you'd love to do it. Why are you barred from doing so?

Imagine that you really want to learn a new job but have no experience. The company might be willing to let you do the job at no pay, but they aren't willing to pay you the legal minimum wage. You think it's a good deal for you. The company thinks it is a good deal for them. Why can't you? In some areas you can. Unpaid internships on Wall Street are a great example. In other areas, like being a store clerk, you can't.
 
With a few exceptions, nobody can be forced to work overtime for regular pay. A company can request it, but you have the option of quitting. You can negotiate an employment contract that requires it. To me, the question should be "why are people in some job categories free to negotiate mutually acceptable work conditions while people in others must accept rules dictated by the state?"

Imagine that you love your job and want to work 60 hours a week but the extra hours aren't worth 1.5x your normal pay to the company. They'd love for you to work a 1x pay and you'd love to do it. Why are you barred from doing so?

Imagine that you really want to learn a new job but have no experience. The company might be willing to let you do the job at no pay, but they aren't willing to pay you the legal minimum wage. You think it's a good deal for you. The company thinks it is a good deal for them. Why can't you? In some areas you can. Unpaid internships on Wall Street are a great example. In other areas, like being a store clerk, you can't.

Technically you can make an employee work "overtime" and pay them regular pay. The only time this can legally be done is if they have not had 40 hours of actual work in that pay period. So for example this week tomorrow is a holiday for my company. 8 HOLIDAY hours do not have to be counted towards the 40 hours so if we decide that we are going to work Saturday and make it mandatory we can pay regular pay. 40 hours of regular pay and 8hours of Holiday pay which is all at the normal rate. This can also be applied to anybody that takes a day off be it vacation/personal or sick pay.(We do not do this)

If however an employee works 40 actual hours and is required to work above that the overtime rate has to be applied towards those extra hours.
 
Technically you can make an employee work "overtime" and pay them regular pay. The only time this can legally be done is if they have not had 40 hours of actual work in that pay period. So for example this week tomorrow is a holiday for my company. 8 HOLIDAY hours do not have to be counted towards the 40 hours so if we decide that we are going to work Saturday and make it mandatory we can pay regular pay. 40 hours of regular pay and 8hours of Holiday pay which is all at the normal rate. This can also be applied to anybody that takes a day off be it vacation/personal or sick pay.(We do not do this)

If however an employee works 40 actual hours and is required to work above that the overtime rate has to be applied towards those extra hours.

You missed my point. You can't MAKE an employee work at all. If an employee finds an employers demands unreasonable, they can quit. It is the ability to find work elsewhere that safeguards us against employer abuse, not the FLSA.

In my opinion, employers and employees should be able to reach any mutually agreeable terms of employment and the law should only get involved if one of them breaches those terms. Some people might not balk at working long hours for straight pay. Heck, I work long hours and I don't get paid extra for them at all. Fortunately, the FLSA allows me the flexibility to to do that. Sadly, for others the government has taken away that freedom.
 












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