working hard=financial success?

[WheelCEO]

just keep playing the lotto

 

[dvcgirl]

Wealth is a matter of perception. To some, people who have a 500K paid off home and can save 60% of their income are wealthy.

I think that the point is that many people work very hard and life deals a different hand to them. Things sometimes happen that are beyond their control and that can slow down success if not derail it completely at times. I think that those who have achieved success should definitely be proud but also grateful.

I hear you. And since I'm the example you sited above, I wanted to say that we are very grateful for everything we have.

I did want to point out thought that we live in an area where there are plenty of million dollar + homes....and that we have *chosen* to live way beneath our means. If I put our income and use our current home value as our down payment, it says that we can afford a home worth 1.6 million and that's the "conservative" estimate. The aggressive estimate is 1.9 million.

We have chosen to live in a more modest home and drive older cars in order to save that 60%. Why? Because we're investors and we understand just how much it takes to support a couple in retirement. And we also know that by cutting our lifestyle so much that we're in effect "training" ourselves to live on much less than our peers will "need" in retirement.

I know an awful lot of people who make 200K + per year who are simply going to have to keep working. They've grown to love the lifestyle that they lead, and they've raised their children to not only love it, but to expect it. There's going to be a sizable group of "high income earners" (I won't call them wealthy as they have little in the way of investments), who are going to be disillusioned in the future. And their kids are going to be shocked....

 

[Beckypooh1972]

Luck and getting a helping hand go a long way in financial success. For example, my Dad got all 3 of my brothers into lucrative professions by helping them get hired on at their jobs right out of high school. The right kind of help from a caring parent can really make difference to setting a young person up for a successful life.

Also, some of the most financially successful people I know are the ones who put down roots in a community and stayed in the same house/same car for a long time, worked for the same company, consistently paid their bills. I don't think they necessarily worked any harder - they just stayed the course and paid down their debt, didn't create new debt, etc.

I'm not really fan of that lifestyle - I'd prefer living in different places over my lifetime - but it really makes a difference for some.

 

[crisi]

Luck and getting a helping hand go a long way in financial success. For example, my Dad got all 3 of my brothers into lucrative professions by helping them get hired on at their jobs right out of high school. The right kind of help from a caring parent can really make difference to setting a young person up for a successful life.

Also, some of the most financially successful people I know are the ones who put down roots in a community and stayed in the same house/same car for a long time, worked for the same company, consistently paid their bills. I don't think they necessarily worked any harder - they just stayed the course and paid down their debt, didn't create new debt, etc.

I'm not really fan of that lifestyle - I'd prefer living in different places over my lifetime - but it really makes a difference for some.

In a lot of careers its the opposite. If I didn't work and we didn't have family in town, my husband would have switched jobs several times, each time for a promotion and increase in pay. Relocation expenses would have been covered. The most successful people in his field are the ones who don't have loyalty to a company, but continually move for better opportunities.

(His last opportunity was in London).

 

[dvcgirl]

In a lot of careers its the opposite. If I didn't work and we didn't have family in town, my husband would have switched jobs several times, each time for a promotion and increase in pay. Relocation expenses would have been covered. The most successful people in his field are the ones who don't have loyalty to a company, but continually move for better opportunities.

(His last opportunity was in London).

Yes, I would say the same thing. We've lived in three parts of the country and moved each time for the opportunity for more $$$ with DH's job. We were fortunate that these moves took place during the housing boom and so each time we moved, we made money on the houses we sold.

We're staying put now....enjoying being back with family and watching my niece and nephew grow up.

 

[ssawka]

In a lot of careers its the opposite. If I didn't work and we didn't have family in town, my husband would have switched jobs several times, each time for a promotion and increase in pay. Relocation expenses would have been covered. The most successful people in his field are the ones who don't have loyalty to a company, but continually move for better opportunities.

(His last opportunity was in London).

ITA! It all depends on your field and where you live. I'm in IT and I can tell you that I would not have the salary I have now had I not moved around every couple years early in my career. In fact, going to an interview in IT having spent 5+ years in the same position raises a red flag and makes potential employers question your abilities and ambition if you have not taken the opportunity to grow and expand your career.

 

[chrisvip]

Working Hard on the Right Thing + Some Financial Luck = Financial Success

 

[rie'smom]

My husband is a sugar cane farm manager. He makes good money but if he was paid for the amount of time he works (5 AM-5PM during regular season and 5AM to 8 or 9PM during his busy season) and for his effort, he'd make a heck of a lot more.

He has an MBA and could get a better paying office job but he'd hate being cooped up in an office so the financial trade off is worth it for him and for us. If, however, we did not both receive oil royalties from our families, he may not have the luxury of choosing.

 

[Colleen27]

In a lot of careers its the opposite. If I didn't work and we didn't have family in town, my husband would have switched jobs several times, each time for a promotion and increase in pay. Relocation expenses would have been covered. The most successful people in his field are the ones who don't have loyalty to a company, but continually move for better opportunities.

Yep. We've had some good opportunities come up for DH that we passed on because they required relocation. Staying in Michigan really isn't the road to financial success, but we have very close family ties here and don't feel right about the idea of moving away just as our parents are starting to need our help in managing their households, and we'd have a legal battle on our hands if we wanted to move without losing custody of DS anyway.

 

[MrsPete]

Marriage was never, historically speaking, supposed to be a partnership between equals who each have their own lives and livelihoods outside of the shared home. But mechanization and mass production replaced the traditional role of the woman in the home, and the subsequent entry of women into the workforce diminished the male role in providing for the family. Marriage used to be about mutual dependence because it took more than one person to manage a household;

You make a very valid point. The concept of marriage WAS better received back when women had fewer options in the world. I suppose back in those days a woman would think long and hard about leaving her husband, given that she herself couldn't earn much of a paycheck and child support laws were non-existant. Likewise, the idea of no meals, no clean clothes, and no care for his children would give a man pause. Just the idea of working in the fields all day and then coming home to can tomatoes and peaches for the winter would be enough to make him behave a little more considerately towards his wife.

Today it is certainly harder (and more expensive) to live and raise children on your own, but it is possible. With store-bought clothes, drive-through meals, and lawn services, you might go broke but you wouldn't do without in the same way people would've years ago.

My ancestors lived in cities with signs saying "no Irish need apply" so they certainly didn't have all that great access to jobs.

You're right that my country Scots-Irish ancestors didn't have to deal with discrimination in that way -- farmers work for themselves. Family histories do vary significantly based upon where your ancestors lived; I don't think the world is quite so diversified today.

But they must've "made it" in spite of racial discrimination because in your previous post you described how their hard work allowed them to move up in the world:

My grandparents came over as immigrants with very little education, my grandfathers both worked in a shipyard and my grandmother came over at 14 and worked as a maid for a wealthy family in NYC. They eventually were able to purchase their own homes, one set had 11 kids and one set had 7 kids, all the kids were educated, some went to college, vocational training, etc. They definitely struggled economically, but they wanted their kids to do better, and each successive generation has done better. (Whether that will continue, I don't know

Anyway my point was really addressing what you described as generations staying in mill work, in the situation you described: never earning minimum wage, no savings, never owning their own property, dependent on the benevolence of the "big brother" mill company. You stated that their kids would drop out of school to work at the mill. Obviously this went on for generations because then you referred to NAFTA and Vietnam. I was contrasting it with the situation of people I know who were immigrants, who also struggled economically and worked in low wage jobs and couldn't get ahead, but did whatever they could to make sure their kids didn't follow their parents' path. Whether it was pushing their kids to get education/training, or even moving to a whole new country (in the old country they were strugggling farmers, btw) they wanted their kids to strive for more.
I think you yourself pointed out the dilemma inherent in generations of citizens becoming too dependent on one industry, which then contracted, causing many problems.

Anyway, my point about the heyday of the mills was that GIVEN THE OPTIONS that my country ancestors had, the mill was a viable choice. Yeah, it doesn't look great to us today through 2010 eyes, but they fewer choices. And, as I said, I know that my ancestors saw it as a good choice. I clearly remember sitting on the porch stringing beans or some other such tedious task, listening to the women discuss the good and bad of farming vs. mills. Both sides of my family (farmers vs. mill workers) envied the other just a little.

It was a situation that worked well for generations. Now, I'm not defending this as a good career choice today -- and the people my age (early 40s) should've realized that the good of the mill train was coming to an end. The writing was on the wall, and that generation had opportunities for education and other training that weren't available to their parents/grandparents.

 

[MrsPete]

Yep. We've had some good opportunities come up for DH that we passed on because they required relocation. Staying in Michigan really isn't the road to financial success, but we have very close family ties here and don't feel right about the idea of moving away just as our parents are starting to need our help in managing their households, and we'd have a legal battle on our hands if we wanted to move without losing custody of DS anyway.

Little off-topic: It's not only family that sometimes keeps a worker tethered to a geographical area, when he could take a better job elsewhere.

I'm a teacher, which means that I'm a state employee. What's the best part of teaching? I'm talking financially here, not the warm fuzzy "helping people" parts. It's the pension! But here's the catch: It's a STATE pension. Which means that to get the good from it, you have to work in the same state for 30 years. Honestly, the vast majority of teachers don't end up earning that full 30-year pension.

In our 20 years of marriage, my husband has been offered several good jobs out of state, and each time we've weighed his opportunity /potential paycheck against the loss of my years. Each time we've determined that the money offered wasn't enough for me to "start again" towards a different pension plan. So he has turned down good offers. Once we thought we were going to move to a town on the border, so I could keep working in my current state and he could work in the adjacent state . . . but that just didn't come together. In some ways, it's tougher to be a two-career couple.

 

[TammyAlphabet]

I have a question that I thought might be pertenant on this board. Tonight, I was reading on another board and came across a post that espoused that those who work hard will be financially successful, and if you are struggling with money, you just aren't working hard enough. I know this smacks of the American dream ideals, but is this really the way it is now? Or was it ever really that way?

Income is only part of the equation. You must live below your means.

 

[TammyAlphabet]

In a lot of careers its the opposite. If I didn't work and we didn't have family in town, my husband would have switched jobs several times, each time for a promotion and increase in pay. Relocation expenses would have been covered. The most successful people in his field are the ones who don't have loyalty to a company, but continually move for better opportunities.

(His last opportunity was in London).

London, OMStars, I would love to have that opportunity.

 

[crisi]

London, OMStars, I would love to have that opportunity.

Today he got contacted by Disney. About ten minutes after I typed that.

 

[nunzia]

Today he got contacted by Disney. About ten minutes after I typed that.

Shoot..go for it!! Actually easier said than done..I got my degree with the idea of working for Disney. The kids pretty well dug in their heels at living in California or Florida, so it became Vegas ...

 

[LovableGluttons]

Income is only part of the equation. You must live below your means.

For my husband and I, this was crucial. We have been a two career couple since marriage, lived frugally off less than one income, while saving and investing the rest. We continue to do this now and will continue in the future.

Sure, unexpected expenses came up along the way, but most things we knew they were coming, like purchasing a home, cars, college for the kids, even our retirement fund.

When it took longer than expected for DH to find a job after he retired from the military, I worked two full time and one part time job to keep our financial goals on track.

We didn't have a windfall, we just worked hard for many years and saved as much as we could along the way.

An early visit to a financial planner definitely shaped our future.

 

[AmberHeartsDisney]

Its all about using the money you MAKE and spending more then have have. To many people want want want and not need.

 

[crisi]

Shoot..go for it!! Actually easier said than done..I got my degree with the idea of working for Disney. The kids pretty well dug in their heels at living in California or Florida, so it became Vegas ...

I like Disney, but I dislike Florida - it would have to be an AWESOME deal to get me to live in Florida. Plus I'd have to quit my job, which is a nice one, to move. Plus his mother is 75 years old and has had several strokes. Should she pass on, we will have high schoolers, and my own aging parents. We are stuck. Our moves are local and therefore limited - which means his career and our success is limited - by our own values. Its fine - we have plenty without chasing more. Although sometimes I wish we'd have bitten the bullet and started moving around when our parents were younger and our kids smaller - because then it would be a done deal and a way of life.

(I'm more tempted by London - that would be something I'd love to give me kids - a few years living in Europe. He's also been chased for the past three years by a company out in the Pacific Northwest - I like that idea better than Florida - enough that we even did a little house shopping there. Then there was Bangalore, India - way too far from home - but perhaps the most interesting. It is, however, nice to know that in this economy, he is still getting pursued).