working hard=financial success?

palavra

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I have a question that I thought might be pertenant on this board. Tonight, I was reading on another board and came across a post that espoused that those who work hard will be financially successful, and if you are struggling with money, you just aren't working hard enough. I know this smacks of the American dream ideals, but is this really the way it is now? Or was it ever really that way?
 
Hi!

I think that people that financially struggle, do not know how to manage their money, and I don't mean this in an arrogant way, not in the least. I think people (including myself years ago) didn't know how to handle money. But, now I have money in the bank, a portfolio and CDs, Money Markets and a 401 k. What you need to remember is to pay YOURSELF first. I don't care if it's $2.00 a week. Always pay YOURSELF first, then pay your creditors. This has worked for me and your liquid cash assets will really add up fast.
 
I have a question that I thought might be pertenant on this board. Tonight, I was reading on another board and came across a post that espoused that those who work hard will be financially successful, and if you are struggling with money, you just aren't working hard enough. I know this smacks of the American dream ideals, but is this really the way it is now? Or was it ever really that way?

I dont believe that hard work is a guarantee of financial success. But I do believe that the lack of hard work will ensure that financial success will not be achieved.
 
Hi!

I think that people that financially struggle, do not know how to manage their money, and I don't mean this in an arrogant way, not in the least. I think people (including myself years ago) didn't know how to handle money. But, now I have money in the bank, a portfolio and CDs, Money Markets and a 401 k. What you need to remember is to pay YOURSELF first. I don't care if it's $2.00 a week. Always pay YOURSELF first, then pay your creditors. This has worked for me and your liquid cash assets will really add up fast.

I think you are missing the point of the post. By working hard, the assumption is that you are doing all those things in the first place. The poster on the previous board did not mean that those who were struggling financially were mismanaging their money. His point was that hard work=getting ahead.

It is great that you have managed to get to a place where you are financially solvent, but in this economy, many people have lost their jobs or had health issues to deal with and run up exorbitant medical bills. It is absolutely true that you should pay yourself first, but that can't happen if there is no money coming in.
 

Hi!

I think that people that financially struggle, do not know how to manage their money, and I don't mean this in an arrogant way, not in the least. I think people (including myself years ago) didn't know how to handle money. But, now I have money in the bank, a portfolio and CDs, Money Markets and a 401 k. What you need to remember is to pay YOURSELF first. I don't care if it's $2.00 a week. Always pay YOURSELF first, then pay your creditors. This has worked for me and your liquid cash assets will really add up fast.

What happens if you don't have anything left to pay the creditors after paying yourself? You pay your bills, buy groceries, and THEN pay yourself. Sometimes you job just doesn't pay well. I loved my job but it didn't pay very much. I would rather be poor and happy than have a full portfolio and hate my job. I am not saying that you do. Just putting some perspective there. Some people don't create their circumstances but rather do the best they can with what they have.

It used to be if you worked hard you were rewarded. It is not the same these days. I know that when I was working, I worked hard. I did everything I could to make my restaurant successful. And it was. That did not make the man that paid me, pay me any more. So by their theory, I wasn't working hard enough. Well, 60+ hours a week, not to mention the hour drive, turned a nonprofitable restaurant into a profitable one, controlled my costs, every thing. Didn't change my pay. After a while, it became...get a college degree and you will make more money. Now they want you to have a college degree to be a manager at McDonald's to make $30,000 a year. I looked at going to school a few weeks ago. The major I was looking at was a 4 year degree and made less than that! I refuse to go to college for 4 years to make LESS than I make without a degree.
 
Some of the people who work hardest are in very physically demanding jobs that are very low paying. If you are in a low paying job, you can work seven days a week, ten hours a day, and there is no guarantee of financial success. It could happen, but it may not happen.
 
Working hard or not working hard has nothing to do with it. It's choices. I'm SURE I worked HARD when I worked part time at Sam's Club, I was the top salesperson in history for credit cards and small business memberships, I busted my butt ... but made VERY little money.

Now I sit in a corner office... delegating. I make four times more. It's the profession you choose, the position you hold and how marketable your position is. It's the "worth" of the position.
 
What happens if you don't have anything left to pay the creditors after paying yourself? You pay your bills, buy groceries, and THEN pay yourself. Sometimes you job just doesn't pay well. I loved my job but it didn't pay very much. I would rather be poor and happy than have a full portfolio and hate my job. I am not saying that you do. Just putting some perspective there. Some people don't create their circumstances but rather do the best they can with what they have.

It used to be if you worked hard you were rewarded. It is not the same these days. I know that when I was working, I worked hard. I did everything I could to make my restaurant successful. And it was. That did not make the man that paid me, pay me any more. So by their theory, I wasn't working hard enough. Well, 60+ hours a week, not to mention the hour drive, turned a nonprofitable restaurant into a profitable one, controlled my costs, every thing. Didn't change my pay. After a while, it became...get a college degree and you will make more money. Now they want you to have a college degree to be a manager at McDonald's to make $30,000 a year. I looked at going to school a few weeks ago. The major I was looking at was a 4 year degree and made less than that! I refuse to go to college for 4 years to make LESS than I make without a degree.

*
In your second paragraph you do make a valid point. Working hard at a restaurant, but you were not working hard enough (not getting a change in pay, per your assertion). It seems that everyone wants a college degree now adays. I would think one would have to work in the IT field or some other computer field to get a decent salary. I have no idea how much college would cost though. There are computer schools out there too, but again, not sure how much they are. So I do agree with your assessment.

As for the first paragraph, no matter how little I made I put money away every week. If it was a $1.00 for .50 cents it went right into the bank, then I would pay my bills/creditors. That's what worked for me.
 
Working hard or not working hard has nothing to do with it. It's choices. I'm SURE I worked HARD when I worked part time at Sam's Club, I was the top salesperson in history for credit cards and small business memberships, I busted my butt ... but made VERY little money.

Now I sit in a corner office... delegating. I make four times more. It's the profession you choose, the position you hold and how marketable your position is. It's the "worth" of the position.

And it is also how lucky you are to keep the job and not get downsized, how healthy you are to be able to keep working and how much integrity your place of employment has.
 
Working hard or not working hard has nothing to do with it. It's choices. I'm SURE I worked HARD when I worked part time at Sam's Club, I was the top salesperson in history for credit cards and small business memberships, I busted my butt ... but made VERY little money.

Now I sit in a corner office... delegating. I make four times more. It's the profession you choose, the position you hold and how marketable your position is. It's the "worth" of the position.
Robin, Im sure that you worked hard to achieve the position you are now in. And even though you delegate tasks there is a considerable amount of mental work on your part that makes it all come together in the end.
 
Working hard is absolutely ONE COMPONENT of financial success. Without hard work, very few people will be successful. Paris Hilton, I suppose is the exception to that rule -- and really, I suppose we could argue that her family is rich, but she herself isn't really responsible for her financial success. Even if you consider people who discover oil on their family land to be financially successful, hard work was still involved. Someone (maybe the newly rich person, maybe an ancestor) bought that land, maintained it, paid taxes on it.

However, other factors come into play too:

Natural talents, ability, and intelligence. For example, I know a couple kids at school who work SO HARD every single day, but -- for one reason or another -- it just doesn't come together for them. One I'm thinking of is what used to be termed "educatibly mentally handicapped". She can do literally everything in her power, and it still won't be near what my own daughter could do with immense ease. On the other hand, look at someone like Michael Jordan. He was born with natural talent. Someone else could put in just as many hours on the court and still not equal Michael Jordan's accomplishments.

Choice of profession. Some jobs pay more than others. If you choose to be a social worker, you will never earn CEO pay no matter how hard you work.

Thrift. How you spend what you have matters tremendously. We all know people who earn about the same salary we do, yet they're either doing much, much better financially . . . or they're doing much, much worse. Anyone can manage what money they have well -- if they work at it -- so that really could fall under the hard work category.

And finally luck. Being born with a healthy body, with parents who are supportive of education, in an area where jobs are readily available, in a time period where health care is available and no wars are going on -- all these things certainly give a person a leg up. And, of course, the opposite could be true too. A person born without those benefits could still be successful, but he'd have to work harder than a person to whom those things came freely.

So, I'd say that hard work is absolutely NECESSARY for financial success. Without it, financial failure is almost a sure thing, BUT it isn't enough in and of itself.
 
What happens if you don't have anything left to pay the creditors after paying yourself?
No matter how much (or how little) you earn, you have to live within that budget. If you're spending more than you earn every month, one of two things must happen:

1. You must earn more money. That could mean working more hours, or it could mean moving up to a better-paying job.

OR
2. You must send less money. This might mean downsizing your house/apartment, giving up a car, or making other drastic cut-backs.

No other options exist. If you're an adult, in the job you plan to keep forever (not, for example, a student who will soon move on to a real job), you have to live with what you have. "But I want this" or "That is too expensive" is really beside the point. You have what you have. If that's not satisfactory, you either have to earn more or spend less.
 
Working hard to me means doing what it takes to pay for what you need, not the physical hardship of the job. More like a work ethic. I know folks that can't pay their bills, don't have two nickels to rub together, but constantly say they'd never do certain jobs and would rather ask others for money. Or they can't be bothered to show up for their job, or complete school because there are other things they'd rather do. Those people will never be successful. I also know people who are very successful that don't have physically challenging jobs, but theirs are mind-numbingly boring. Yet they do what it takes to show up and put in long hours. That is working hard in my book.
 
It used to be if you worked hard you were rewarded. It is not the same these days.
I disagree. It used to be that some people were rewarded for hard work. We don't have to reach too far into the past to find examples of women and minorities who worked at the same jobs as white men, yet were paid less. Their hard work certainly wasn't rewarded.
After a while, it became...get a college degree and you will make more money. Now they want you to have a college degree to be a manager at McDonald's to make $30,000 a year.
The AVERAGE college graduate will earn more over his lifetime than the AVERAGE high school graduate. Also, the AVERAGE college graduate is less likely to be unemployed and is likely to earn greater benefits. (Source: A poster in my classroom provided by some government agency -- I can't remember which one.) Certainly you can find specific job examples that don't fit the mold, but -- overall, for most people -- going to college is a worthwhile endeavour.

Also, something like 70% of all Americans don't have a bachelor's degree, and most of them are working -- in fact, I have a relative who IS a manager at McDonald's, and he has only a high school diploma. College is pushed today as if it is the only option, but it isn't.
 
Working hard to me means doing what it takes to pay for what you need, not the physical hardship of the job. More like a work ethic. I know folks that can't pay their bills, don't have two nickels to rub together, but constantly say they'd never do certain jobs and would rather ask others for money. Or they can't be bothered to show up for their job, or complete school because there are other things they'd rather do. Those people will never be successful. I also know people who are very successful that don't have physically challenging jobs, but theirs are mind-numbingly boring. Yet they do what it takes to show up and put in long hours. That is working hard in my book.
I can buy into the work ethic may lead to financial success idea.

But while you're talking about different types of hard work, don't overlook difficult mental work. At my job, I don't lift heavy boxes, stand in the hot sun, or sustain physical labor for any length of time -- but I work hard mentally. I multi-task constantly, make important decisions every minute, communicate with large groups in a variety of ways, learn new technology methods, supervise people, and plan new methods to present material. Hard work takes a variety of forms.
 
This person's post really hit home to me because of my father. I can assure you that there is no man who ever worked harder for his family. He's a small business owner, and had a number of very successfull years, IRA acounts andsmall holding in stock. Since he was nearing 70, he was getting ready to retire.. and the bottom fell out of the economy. My parent's main retirement money is tied to his business which is worth over half a million dollars-or was worth that. The real estate market collapse means that there is virtually no hope that he can even sell the business, much less for what it is worth.

My father worked hard, saved, and did the best the he could, and it has come down to his not being able to retire (he's 74), and having no idea how much longer he's going to have work. Thankfully, my parents have Medicaid because otherwise, as self employed business owners, they certainly wouldn't be able to afford health insurance.

So, what has happened to our country that people can do everything right and still end up with nothing?
 
So, what has happened to our country that people can do everything right and still end up with nothing?
Across history, this has always been true. It's just that in America for the last 50 years or so we have been exceptionally fortunate, and we've come to assume that it's our due. The concept of retirement is relatively new. The idea that ordinary people can own homes and land is not a universal reality.
 
This is a great discussion topic. MrsPete pretty much already expressed my exact thoughts on the subject but I look forward to reading more of what others have to say. There are many intriguing gray areas of this topic to discuss. IMO it is not an simple yes or no answer.

:thumbsup2
 
the way I define "working hard" for me, it is the application of a good work ethic and a solid financial plan. Everyone can do both of these, regardless of thier current or even projected net worth. someone making 10,000 a year would have a plan and someone making 1,000,000 a year would have a plan.. the "values" in the plan would vary, but the theory in the plan could be very similar.

I know all that sounds real nice "on paper" but is hard to implement in real life. I try to always treat my job with the respect that I want to be treated and am fortunate to have a job that I truly enjoy (although.. some days ARE more fun than others... today...,well, not so much :eek:)
 
Working hard or not working hard has nothing to do with it. It's choices. I'm SURE I worked HARD when I worked part time at Sam's Club, I was the top salesperson in history for credit cards and small business memberships, I busted my butt ... but made VERY little money.

Now I sit in a corner office... delegating. I make four times more. It's the profession you choose, the position you hold and how marketable your position is. It's the "worth" of the position.

Yes yes yes.

OK it has *something* to do with it...my sis in law wouldn't be where she is if she hadn't worked hard inside her specific goals. She wouldn't be happily facing partnership by next July if she'd just filed her nails and let her paralegal do everything. If she hadn't been ready and willing to go to work 7 days a week for weeks on end, calling into work while on vacation, etc etc. Heck, they have just used the spoils of her (and my brother's) success to buy a second home...not in Aspen, not on a beach, not in Jamaica...but in downtown San Diego a block away from her office, so she can stay *even later* and be there even earlier, without having to do the relatively long drive when she's tired.

But she also made the right decisions LONG ago, and had the ability to see those decisions through. She knew as a child that she wanted to be an attorney, and even though her decisions in between had us questioning her (French major in college, took 5+ years off to work in a completely different field while her husband was building up his career), she defiitely knew how to follow through!

But does her day-to-day work, her at her desk or in a meeting work, look harder than what my husband does? I would say NO. He is just as on call, he goes on business trips that are FAR longer than hers, he sits and does his work in hotels rooms the same way she meets with clients and takes depositions.

My brother worked less than I did in high school, but 1. he's a bit smarter than I am and 2. he quizzed me, and has the ability to learn while doing that...so he'd help me study, then 3 years later when he had the same teachers and same tests, he knew it already. He had WAY more confidence than I ever did, and he applied to a much higher level college than I did, and got in (and met his wife while waiting on line for basketball tickets).

And in fact going to THAT university helped a GREAT deal. They had to work hard to GET to that college, but I can't state for sure that their coursework was harder than my coursework, when you level the field for what sort of work we were doing. sis in law taking French, brother taking engineering courses, I was taking athletic training/exercise science type courses with a view towards chiropractic (so physics, organic chem, higher level anatomy classes), along with a math minor (culminating in linear algebra)...heck, the sister of my sis in law is very successful in her OWN right, with a solid financial advising practice, and she was a FLUTE major in college!

With my brother, he worked hard, but was also lucky lucky lucky. He fell into ROTC, and that combined with Electrical Engineering along with being graduated at JUST the right time got him some certain experiences in the AF that he never would have gotten otherwise, and all of it led to the exact job that he has right now. And in his day to day work, at this point, he works far less *hard* than my husband.

And hubby makes a fraction of what my brother and his wife do...a fraction. Sis in law's yearly bonus is about the same as what we make in a year.

I worked hard through college, I worked my rear off to get a doctorate, I tried my darndest to work hard with a practice...and then I quit. :headache: So I definitely fell down in the working hard part...but then again, I got jobs that were very difficult for me (but not as difficult as owning my own business).


There are people who work *hard* but don't see much financial success. Look at the miners we've been watching! I'm sure they worked their behinds off, day in and day out, and if the collapse hadn't happened, how much would those men have made in their lifetimes? A fluke has caused them to be known, and they'll get some money for awhile...the miners who weren't in that collapse won't ever see the financial boost that these guys will see.


Making good decisions, following through, having confidence, LUCK, happening to meet the right people (aka LUCK), having an innate intelligence, AND working hard...those are all aspects of it all.

Working hard is absolutely ONE COMPONENT of financial success. Without hard work, very few people will be successful. Paris Hilton, I suppose is the exception to that rule -- and really, I suppose we could argue that her family is rich, but she herself isn't really responsible for her financial success. Even if you consider people who discover oil on their family land to be financially successful, hard work was still involved. Someone (maybe the newly rich person, maybe an ancestor) bought that land, maintained it, paid taxes on it.

However, other factors come into play too:

Natural talents, ability, and intelligence. For example, I know a couple kids at school who work SO HARD every single day, but -- for one reason or another -- it just doesn't come together for them. One I'm thinking of is what used to be termed "educatibly mentally handicapped". She can do literally everything in her power, and it still won't be near what my own daughter could do with immense ease. On the other hand, look at someone like Michael Jordan. He was born with natural talent. Someone else could put in just as many hours on the court and still not equal Michael Jordan's accomplishments.

Choice of profession. Some jobs pay more than others. If you choose to be a social worker, you will never earn CEO pay no matter how hard you work.

Thrift. How you spend what you have matters tremendously. We all know people who earn about the same salary we do, yet they're either doing much, much better financially . . . or they're doing much, much worse. Anyone can manage what money they have well -- if they work at it -- so that really could fall under the hard work category.

And finally luck. Being born with a healthy body, with parents who are supportive of education, in an area where jobs are readily available, in a time period where health care is available and no wars are going on -- all these things certainly give a person a leg up. And, of course, the opposite could be true too. A person born without those benefits could still be successful, but he'd have to work harder than a person to whom those things came freely.

So, I'd say that hard work is absolutely NECESSARY for financial success. Without it, financial failure is almost a sure thing, BUT it isn't enough in and of itself.


Guess I could have just quoted you and not blathered on. :)

Across history, this has always been true. It's just that in America for the last 50 years or so we have been exceptionally fortunate, and we've come to assume that it's our due. The concept of retirement is relatively new. The idea that ordinary people can own homes and land is not a universal reality.

I agree 100%.
 












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