Will this end up being the pandemic that cried wolf?

[Darklord77]

Not this again.

Those arguments have been thoroughly dissected in various posts around here.

Discredited? That's subjective. Please discredit my belief that buying lottery tickets is not more important than paint or grass seed?

I have a quote for people who are eager to give up liberties for a little temporary safety.

 

[Cogswel_Cogs]

what was the deal with buying seed? Was it banned or was garden stores not essential. Here they were allowed to be essential.

 

[J'aime Paris]

Honest question. How did you feel about the Black Lives Matter protest? Were you equally supportive of their right to protest? What about football players taking a knee? Ok with you? The hypocrisy from the far right on this protest thing is just mind boggling to me. It wasn't that long ago when there was a LOT of yammering from that quarter about how terrible it was for people to be taking a knee, and (in my state) there were calls to make it a felony to protest when it was people of color doing the protesting. I see that. I'm a FIRM believer in the right to protest. Absolutely. And, I think if people want to protest the "lockdowns" they should have at it. But, they also shouldn't complain if/when they become sick with Covid. At all. Natural consequences are a big thing with me. A natural consequence of ignoring a "stay at home" request during a pandemic is that you risk become quite ill, and possibly dying. When I see things like that, I respect the protest. But, it causes me to say "I'm not going around any of those people for as long as possible because they may be carriers."

As in every other aspect of my adult life, I will accept the consequences of my 'actions'.

Just as I'm currently suffering the "natural consequence" of the financial loss of many years of hard work for my "non essential" business.

 

[PlainJane]

what was the deal with buying seed? Was it banned or was garden stores not essential. Here they were allowed to be essential.

In Michigan stores like Target and Wal-Mart were ordered to prevent people from buying “non-essential” items. Enforcement happened by stores blocking off areas and putting up signs on products to explain they were not sellable. This led to a lot of confusion about what was deemed “essential,” in at least one instance a big box store was preventing people from buying car seats.

 

[wombat_5606]

As in every other aspect of my adult life, I will accept the consequences of my 'actions'.

Just as I'm currently suffering the "natural consequence" of the financial loss of many years of hard work for my "non essential" business.

Yes, but are you willing to accept the consequences of your 'actions' as it relates to the others you infect?

Rather than going after the people that are using strategies that protect not only you, but all of us, why don't you protest the people that are causing you to spend money rather than pause those expenses?

 

[Jrb1979]

https://news.yahoo.com/woman-recovered-coronavirus-tried-donate-171000048.html
If that is the case this could be much worse.

 

[DisneyJamieCA]

Discredited? That's subjective. Please discredit my belief that buying lottery tickets is not more important than paint or grass seed?

I have a quote for people who are eager to give up liberties for a little temporary safety.

The post you quoted said dissected, not discredited.

 

[Darklord77]

Honest question. How did you feel about the Black Lives Matter protest? Were you equally supportive of their right to protest? What about football players taking a knee? Ok with you? The hypocrisy from the far right on this protest thing is just mind boggling to me. It wasn't that long ago when there was a LOT of yammering from that quarter about how terrible it was for people to be taking a knee, and (in my state) there were calls to make it a felony to protest when it was people of color doing the protesting. I see that. I'm a FIRM believer in the right to protest. Absolutely. And, I think if people want to protest the "lockdowns" they should have at it. But, they also shouldn't complain if/when they become sick with Covid. At all. Natural consequences are a big thing with me. A natural consequence of ignoring a "stay at home" request during a pandemic is that you risk become quite ill, and possibly dying. When I see things like that, I respect the protest. But, it causes me to say "I'm not going around any of those people for as long as possible because they may be carriers."

I'm not going to answer any of those questions for fear of violating the forums ban on politics.

Stay at home orders are not a permanent solution to this problem. They were sold as a temporary stop-gap. I feel most Americans did what was asked of them even though it hurt. The treasury can't just keep printing money. Not everyone can work from home. Even essential healthcare and other government workers will feel the impact. Local and state governments will run out of money and have to cut the workforce through layoffs or furloughs. It's coming if this goes on much longer.

 

[DisneyJamieCA]

I'm not going to answer any of those questions for fear of violating the forums ban on politics.

Stay at home orders are not a permanent solution to this problem. They were sold as a temporary stop-gap. I feel most Americans did what was asked of them even though it hurt. The treasury can't just keep printing money. Not everyone can work from home. Even essential healthcare and other government workers will feel the impact. Local and state governments will run out of money and have to cut the workforce through layoffs or furloughs. It's coming if this goes on much longer.

Real question here - what do you think happens to our economy if everybody goes back to regular life, like you're suggesting and we end up with mass casualties and overrun hospitals? Because not reopening slowly and methodically will result in those two things, which tanks the economy anyway and hurts the work force as everybody end up too sick to go in.

While I agree this can't go on forever, nor even until there is a vaccine, are people really ready to just throw away the last 5 weeks of work we did as a country to have the very same outcome we would have had 5 weeks ago? We would have all wasted the last 5 weeks for nothing.

 

[monsterkitty]

5-Month-Old Daughter of New York City Firefighter Dies from Coronavirus: She 'Was the Boss'

Did we over react? Ask the parents of this 5-month-old.

 

[cobright]

We may never have a vaccine. Possibly, COVID could mutate and weaken. Hopefully, we will find effective treatments. Herd immunity may be the best option. If so, what's next? Do we lock down until there's nothing left, let it rip or maybe something in between?

We don't have a vaccine for SARS or MERS. We have one for Ebola but nobody gets it except a few people who expect to be exposed to it. There's no herd immunity to any of those either. But you don't hear about those bugs running rampant. People (and chickens) infected with those virus were identified, isolated, and treated and those virus lost their means of transmission.

If everyone would just stay home for a month the virus' spread would be reduced to practically nothing, then it can be managed with regular testing.

Do you seriously think that everyone who works in a hospital feels the exact same way about everything? They don’t.

In Michigan every healthcare provider union and medical professional organization supports quarantine and testing before removing lock down. That doesn't mean there isn't a nurse or EMT or orderly or mortician, or whatever out there that is happy for the job security that would come from opening up the state before getting the new cases down to a manageable number, but there are horrible people working all professions if you look hard enough.

So, (IMO) if the PP believed in the things represented by the protest, no matter her occupation, she should be applauded for supporting it. Just as we should be applauded when we protest other things.

Except when your protests put non-protester lives in danger. We still don't let you scream, "Fire" in a crowded theater.

How were they giving healthcare workers crap here? I am missing the connection

Thanks - I don't think that was intentional, but agree that it should have been planned to avoid it.

The name of their protest was "Operation Gridlock". They intended to choke the streets with cars. That was the stated design of the organizers. The streets, those things the ambulances use to go get sick people.

Maybe people are protesting because some of these emergency orders have obviously overreached?

It's pretty rare to find someone who actually believes that lifting the restrictions won't result in more people dying. I mean there are countries out there right now with a fraction of our case and death rates. New Zealand has a population of 5 million people, about the same as Wisconsin or Alabama, but only 17 deaths so far, compared to the 250-ish in those states.

So the reason people protest them are either political (a subject I won't entertain here), or a matter of financial self interest. The implications of the second option are kinda chilling. That there are people, in the richest country on Earth, that have to choose between economic survival or endangering their lives and the lives of others; and worse still that there are people that can weather this storm financially, but would rather risk causing unnecessary deaths than go without a haircut or have to order their seeds from Amazon instead of going to the store.

 

[TLSnell1981]

...

5-Month-Old Daughter of New York City Firefighter Dies from Coronavirus: She 'Was the Boss'

Did we over react? Ask the parents of this 5-month-old.

It crushes your heart and soul when something like this happens. It's very easy to crumble and forget the goal. We have some who had "normal flu symptoms." and recover. Another who is very dear friend was ADMITTED with pneumonia..30 years old but came back negative. Next day a neighbor in their early 40s died. It shook me to my core. I'm reminded when I drive by and see the swing set in the back yard...those kids lost their parent FOREVER. Yet another (with multiple comorbidities) is on a vent. It ain't easy...it sucks. Although there are still many fighting for their lives in other ways. They are ALL important.

 

[cobright]

https://news.yahoo.com/woman-recovered-coronavirus-tried-donate-171000048.html
If that is the case this could be much worse.

This isn't uncommon. It has to do with the viral load of the initial infection. Most often, when someone gets a virus it comes from an exposure to a large quantity of the virus. Like a jillion of the beggars riding a sneeze droplet into your mouth or something like that. They kick off the infection fast and the body must produce a certain amount of antibodies before there are enough to end the infection.

But there are levels of viral load that are just big enough cause the illness instead of dying out but still small enough not to require the same amount of antibodies to evict them. That's why having a very light case of chicken pox as a child leaves you vulnerable to shingles as an adult. Back before we had a vaccine for that I mean.

 

[Cannot_Wait_4Disney]

Discredited? That's subjective. Please discredit my belief that buying lottery tickets is not more important than paint or grass seed?

I have a quote for people who are eager to give up liberties for a little temporary safety.

You may be able to repeat the quote but you know not what Franklin meant by it. It was written in the context of a tax dispute between the Pennsylvania General Assembly and the family of the Penns. The later was trying to give a one time cash payment in exchange for the acknowledgement that the government couldn't tax their land. Franklin was advising not to do that. For Franklin, the "liberty" not to be given up was the government's ability to tax and govern in the interest of everyone. The "temporary security" it would have been given up for was a one time cash payment from the Penns. . So the quote as penned by Franklin literally means the opposite of what you're intending.

 

[Cannot_Wait_4Disney]

I'm yelling Timber!

Step aside. I'm gonna show you some fancy cutting.

Whoops. Hope you have insurance. Buh bye.

 

[TLSnell1981]

Nice cutting.

I thought it was going down! Never can figure these boards out.

 

[Heather07438]

When I think about my rights as an American, it doesn't just mean freedom to live as we choose. I am part of a society. We can do what we like when it doesn't harm others.

We have the majority of society working toward a common goal, trying to figure how we can best limit damage to both our health and the economy. A small percent prefer to give up. A good argument can be made that their livelihood and contentment is being harmed, but it's not a won argument. They need to reasonably prove their method is superior and in the long run our society as a whole will suffer less, which they have not done yet. Keep trying. In the meantime the rest of society is working on a common goal and nobody has the freedom to harm that.

 

[RamblingMad]

When I think about my rights as an American, it doesn't just mean freedom to live as we choose. I am part of a society. We can do what we like when it doesn't harm others.

We have the majority of society working toward a common goal, trying to figure how we can best limit damage to both our health and the economy. A small percent prefer to give up. A good argument can be made that their livelihood and contentment is being harmed, but it's not a won argument. They need to reasonably prove their method is superior and in the long run our society as a whole will suffer less, which they have not done yet. Keep trying. In the meantime the rest of society is working on a common goal and nobody has the freedom to harm that.

The take away is that a lot of stuff isn't essential. In lock down it boils down to books, Netflix, healthcare, and food and utilities. I barely use my car anymore. I exercise on my treadmill. And I order stuff I need from Amazon or Costco. One day I'll start cutting my own hair.

The longer this goes on the more normal this new normal becomes. Each week that passes I'm becoming more used to this new lifestyle. I really only miss hiking. There is something rejuvenating about being outdoors. I'm not in any rush to go dine in at restaurants or go to the movie theater.

We talk about reopening the economy, but what if some people adjust to this new lifestyle and don't go back to doing things the way they did before this started?

 

[Heather07438]

what if some people adjust to this new lifestyle and don't go back to doing things the way they did before this started?

We're trying to buy a used work truck in the tri-state area. The process has changed but not all for the worse. Some of it may stick, especially not having to sit in the office for 3-5 hrs, lol. Or them bringing a truck to our house for test drive. The new normal of the short term could stay.

Many businesses need to adjust. It's a big part of the equation. When things re-open, dollars won't automatically flow for some. Even without shutting down that would've been a concern. Many people would've chosen not to take unnecessary chances doing things as previous. Other people will like new methods and prefer them.

It's been relatively easy for us as well. Sure we miss some outside world things but the comforts of home life aren't very different. We live within a mile of 3 different beautiful hiking areas but technically we aren't allowed on the trails. We're in a 'watershed' community. Unofficially we can walk the woods by our houses because they're very private. Just not the marked trails. You're welcome to visit

 

[Pea-n-Me]

In Michigan every healthcare provider union and medical professional organization supports quarantine and testing before removing lock down. That doesn't mean there isn't a nurse or EMT or orderly or mortician, or whatever out there that is happy for the job security that would come from opening up the state before getting the new cases down to a manageable number, but there are horrible people working all professions if you look hard enough.

That's a pretty offensive statement, calling people horrible who may not necessarily agree with you and accusing them of having ulterior motives if they don't. There are 49 other states besides Michigan! Each will eventually remove lockdown in their own way and on their own timetable. Of course some healthcare workers will be in agreement with some of these plans! They're not all horrible people, either, who just want to line their pockets at other peoples' expense. Looking at the big picture, many realize there are numerous other ramifications besides the very complicated health implications with this pandemic. And they, as well as first responders, morticians, psychologists, economists and many other members of our society, have to be cognizant of those as well.

But anyway, the exchange you referred to was specifically about the protests:

This actually bothers me. You work in a hospital and you're ok with the protests? The ones that went on tirades against health care workers? Wow...

Do you seriously think that everyone who works in a hospital feels the exact same way about everything? They don’t.

I agree with others that people have the right to protest the loss of their liberties if they want to since that is what this country was founded on and why states have been careful to tread carefully on what they say people must or mustn't do. Many feel it's a legitimate concern. They have the right to feel the way they feel even if you or I don't agree with it or have our reasons for feeling differently.

This isn't uncommon. It has to do with the viral load of the initial infection. Most often, when someone gets a virus it comes from an exposure to a large quantity of the virus. Like a jillion of the beggars riding a sneeze droplet into your mouth or something like that. They kick off the infection fast and the body must produce a certain amount of antibodies before there are enough to end the infection.

But there are levels of viral load that are just big enough cause the illness instead of dying out but still small enough not to require the same amount of antibodies to evict them. That's why having a very light case of chicken pox as a child leaves you vulnerable to shingles as an adult. Back before we had a vaccine for that I mean.

We learned of another aspect of viral load recently besides these and that was that certain virus strains inherently have a higher viral load than others, such as the strain that came from Europe and affected many on the East Cost of the US, and Canada. In other words it's not just about exposure to a larger quantity, necessarily.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/article.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=12326324
"The most aggressive strains could generate 270 times as much viral load as the weakest type."

(I think there was a better article posted in this thread earlier if anyone has it.)