Will the monorail ever be expanded?

[tjkraz]

When Walt died, it was the end to trying cool new things at Disney. He was the ultimate risk taker. The MBA's and CPA's that run Disney now have lost the ability to dream, and turn dreams into dollars.

Yeah, there's been a real dearth of innovation coming out of Imagineering in the 40+ years since Walt's passing.

 

[richmar]

How about an elevated roadway just for disney buses to bypass local traffic.

 

[nuts]

How about this:
http://taxi2000.com/

 

[joelkfla]

How about this:
http://taxi2000.com/

That's called PRT, for Personal Rapid Transit. Unfortunately, people like Taxi 2000 have been touting it for years, but have been unable to find anyone willing to put up the bucks for anything more than a demo system with in-line stations.

I think it would be great for feeders between a monorail main line and individual resorts. For example, a loop could easily connect POR, SSR, and OKW with Epcot, as they are all physically quite close.

But I don't think it could cope with the volume at park close time as the primary transit system.

 

[richmar]

Make it a "perk". A transportation version of the dining plan!

 

[pallred@lhcn.org]

I would be willing to pay 5 to 10 dollars more a ticket for inovation! GO MONORAIL!

 

[Adrienne]

Capacity does not equal throughput... It depends on how many buses, which will define the frequency, the time in transit which defines the average speed, etc. etc.

As we say in the IT industry, "You may have a fat pipe, but never underestimate the throughput of a station wagon full of tapes..."

i'm a IT geek too... so very true.. lol

 

[yekcoh_99]

I would be willing to pay 5 to 10 dollars more a ticket for inovation! GO MONORAIL!

Or even $100 for a lifetime pass...

 

[Markstudy]

Yeah, there's been a real dearth of innovation coming out of Imagineering in the 40+ years since Walt's passing.

Its been on a long slow decline.

Disney was about big ideas like Monorails and dark rides.

In the last 40 years we've gone from completing a lot of Walt's unfinished plans and ideas, to slowly moving to where we find our self today... with more and more rides as roller coasters just like any other theme park. I like Tower of Terror, Rock-N-Roll, and Mt Everest, and the new Toy Story ride is a lot of fun also, but I'm not seeing bold new ideas. I'd argue that replacing 20,000 Leagues with Soarin is another example of how rides have become more about loading guest and logistics.

Soarin, Star Tours, and Spaceship Earth's (new updated ending) continue to use more TV screens and less animatronics.... as another trend towards less originality and more multimedia.

The loss of Epcot's premier E-ticket ride - Journey into Imagination (1983-1998)
to replace it with a cheaper version to save on the electric bill and maintenance cost... is just a perfect example of the loss of the big picture... and the transition to management by CPA and MBA. This is why plans for new monorails, are now replaced by simply adding more city buses.

Maybe Walt Disney was in the right place at the right time but he was developing ideas that were 20 years ahead of his time. Now I watch Imagineering take good ideas that are on par with Universal Studios instead of ground breaking or futuristic.

40 years ago the Monorail was a perfect example of what Walt was all about. The fact that we haven't been able to add another mile of track since... well that's just sad.

 

[yekcoh_99]

40 years ago the Monorail was a perfect example of what Walt was all about. The fact that we haven't been able to add another mile of track since... well that's just sad.

I whole heartedly agree...

 

[CanadianGuy]

Its been on a long slow decline.

Disney was about big ideas like Monorails and dark rides.

In the last 40 years we've gone from completing a lot of Walt's unfinished plans and ideas, to slowly moving to where we find our self today... with more and more rides as roller coasters just like any other theme park. I like Tower of Terror, Rock-N-Roll, and Mt Everest, and the new Toy Story ride is a lot of fun also, but I'm not seeing bold new ideas. I'd argue that replacing 20,000 Leagues with Soarin is another example of how rides have become more about loading guest and logistics.

Soarin, Star Tours, and Spaceship Earth's (new updated ending) continue to use more TV screens and less animatronics.... as another trend towards less originality and more multimedia.

The loss of Epcot's premier E-ticket ride - Journey into Imagination (1983-1998)
to replace it with a cheaper version to save on the electric bill and maintenance cost... is just a perfect example of the loss of the big picture... and the transition to management by CPA and MBA. This is why plans for new monorails, are now replaced by simply adding more city buses.

Maybe Walt Disney was in the right place at the right time but he was developing ideas that were 20 years ahead of his time. Now I watch Imagineering take good ideas that are on par with Universal Studios instead of ground breaking or futuristic.

40 years ago the Monorail was a perfect example of what Walt was all about. The fact that we haven't been able to add another mile of track since... well that's just sad.

While I agree with some elements of your arguments .. I have to disagree strongly with others.

I agree the time from 84 to 99 was not a good 15 years in general for the parks and we're still living with the repercussions of a lot of bad decisions made during that time.. (Journey into Imagination is an EXCELLENT example here..) For our DL friends, "LightMagic" is a STELLAR example of bad, bad, bad show.

I have been very disappointed that the AudioAnimatronic development hasn't moved along as I would have expected. I think that the new AA's in the Hall of Presidents appear pretty good.. but why not start replacing the 60's models throughout the other attractions with more lifelike and technologically superior current models? I know they've done this some but the 'lifelike' part is missing for me on a lot of those..

However, I'm not sure that 20,000 Leages was ever replaced by Soarin in any park.. Last I heard in MK in FLA, 20,000 Leagues was replaced by what will be a new expanded Fantasyland.. A fair trade in my book.

At DL it was replaced by a similar NEMO themed attraction...

That makes sense when the 20,000 leagues movie is almost 50 years old and hasn't been 'huge' in popular culture since the 60's.. Queues remain an issue with that revamped attraction tho. Queues, logistics and crowd management DO matter. You can have the best rides in the world but if an average guest can't reasonably have a chance to experience it -- what was the point?

Perhaps you were speaking generally/metaphorically?

Either way I think Soarin IS a good replacement for the slow loading 20,000 Leagues ride thru plastic fish.

As for adding miles of track in 40 years.. they added 7 to 10 during the 80's with the opening of Epcot. That was 27 or 28 years ago?

But I'm arguing semantics. The truth of the matter is .. Disney parks have grown way beyond what they were when they opened or even just 15 years ago..

As a result, load times, wait times and the logistics of moving people thru a tentative attraction or park or resort wide DO matter.. they matter a great deal. And Disney DOES have to be concerned with those things for every new attraction, park or addition to the property. To say that's what it's 'all' about is folly. It is part of the decision making process, as it should be, that's without question.

At the end of the day, Disney faces the same problem any number of 'heritage' companies face.. which is living up to the original credo when the business grows in leaps and bounds beyond the original dreamer's ideas.

Have they done that perfectly? Oh no way. But they've done it better than most and have retained a great number of the things that have always made "Disney" ... Disney for a large number of guests.

I just returned from 9 days at WDW and spent as much time outside the parks ferrying around the resort property as I did inside the parks on this trip.

My initial thought after a few days of my trip was "WOW.. the transportation is really pretty good when you think about the sheer volume of potential guests, potential destinations and the peak travel period volumes around park openings and closings etc."

I know that's a favorite for people to complain about on the DIS but I left the MK headed for the Dolphin and despite the second showing of MSEP just finishing at exiting crowds being absolutely ridiculous.. we still did not wait for a bus and we were back at our resort in under 25 minutes.

I wish my local 'city bus' transportation was that good.

Toy Story Mania is a groundbreaking attraction in my book. Worthy of the history of great ideas that have occasionally come out of the Imagineering group. And ultimately it can be freshened up or updated with new games at relatively low cost... and the underlying concepts could be ported to other themes/brands and even other WDW Parks world wide and still feel like a completely new or different attraction.

And personal tastes aside, attractions like Soarin, TSM and even Spaceranger Spin .. give guests a UNIQUE experience that can't be had easily elswhere ... together as a family. Exactly as Walt intended when he was putting together his first park - Disneyland.

Whether or not Disney chooses to spend a few billion dollars expanding the monorail will ultimately not make that great a difference in a lot of the guest experience. Yes, monorails are cooler than buses. But in the end, Guest "A" and their family will still end up waiting for one.. or waiting to board one.. and still be upset that the handicapped get to board first etc etc.

So...

I'd far rather they embarked on a one billion dollar program to properly train CM's and fix the many other things that HAVE slipped like :

• Dining menus throughout the property
• General cleanliness, maintenance and attention to detail
• GOOD, updated and detailed crowd management plans for when the parks do near capacity (whatever they're doing now ain't workin for many guests)
• Fixing Pleasure Island / DTD and investing properly propertywide
• Reducing the overall amount of outsourcing for EVERY thing

ALL things that have far more impact on the guest experience than whether a monorail or a bus gets me to my destination at the start and end of each day.

My personal gripes are in details that have slipped a huge amount. Burnt out light bulbs that go on for days - maybe weeks? (on the marquee the theatre on MS-USA even!) .. signs on Pop Century walk ways with gramatical errors that have persisted since the resort opened 7 years ago ... despite at least one person (me) bringing it to their attention over 2 year ago.. and completely absent customer service ... when it used to be stellar because proper training was included in the CM hiring process.

Disney used to do better at all those things. And now a days it seems if they have a shot at making you go away by throwing you a couple of Fastpasses or One_Day tickets.. that's the answer to everything.

I don't take issues with the latest rides or attractions.. and I definitely don't take issue with not spending a billion to expand the monorail.. when they already have an investment in buses that work out to be better financially and probably in terms of the overall guest experience.

Why would I say that about the guest experience? I've yet to see a property wide monorail plan / concept / idea that (ignoring cost for a moment) avoids the 'no go' swamplands, avoids the nature conservation lands without chewing up miles of pristine potentially developable land AND avoids taking guests on a long convoluted journey way out of their way... and one that would meet the transporation needs now and into the future.

That's probably the biggest hurdle to expanding the monorail etc.. Far more so than the actual dollars and cents.

K

 

[skier_pete]

Knox (CanadianGuy)

Very well thought out and articulated...though you put a LOT of stuff in your post, the one thing that struck me....why in the world would Disney expand the monorail. It couldn't possible IMPROVE the guest experience to have miles and miles of monorail interlinked. Would I be happier as a guest if instead of taking a bus from POP to the MK, I got on at my monorail stop at the resort - then travelled to DHS, changed monorails to the DHS/Epcot line, changed AGAIN to the TTC, and finally changed a fourth time to MK. THAT in reality is how a monorail system would have to work...multiple loops....not unlike a major city's subway system. I'd rather take a direct bus, thanks. Yes, a monorail might be more comfortable and quieter, but it is just not practical on the scale of WDW.

 

[CanadianGuy]

Knox (CanadianGuy)

Very well thought out and articulated...though you put a LOT of stuff in your post, the one thing that struck me....why in the world would Disney expand the monorail. It couldn't possible IMPROVE the guest experience to have miles and miles of monorail interlinked. Would I be happier as a guest if instead of taking a bus from POP to the MK, I got on at my monorail stop at the resort - then travelled to DHS, changed monorails to the DHS/Epcot line, changed AGAIN to the TTC, and finally changed a fourth time to MK. THAT in reality is how a monorail system would have to work...multiple loops....not unlike a major city's subway system. I'd rather take a direct bus, thanks. Yes, a monorail might be more comfortable and quieter, but it is just not practical on the scale of WDW.

I do tend to go on sometimes.. often at more length on any topic immediately following a trip and I just got home a few days ago.. LOL

And you've nailed it in far fewer words.. (Really I could have cut all but the last paragraph in retrospect) ... it's either some kind of hub and spoke system ... (which it would pretty much have to be) or you create a couple of REALLY HUGE loops that STILL will require transfers for the MK loop for example but that goes against my last thought -- avoiding taking guests miles and miles out of their way.. and I don't know HOW you do that within the parameters of the maze of available land, no go zones and protected areas.

And everyone seems to think that monorails run on air or something. They use high voltage electricity. Could it be cheaper than diesel fuel? Dunno.. I have no clue how much juice they need to maintain on all the lines currently and of course, adding trainers, adding length to the loops, adding more loops... then even more juice must be required to power it all up.

 

[skier_pete]

And everyone seems to think that monorails run on air or something. They use high voltage electricity. Could it be cheaper than diesel fuel? Dunno.. I have no clue how much juice they need to maintain on all the lines currently and of course, adding trainers, adding length to the loops, adding more loops... then even more juice must be required to power it all up.

That's a good question - I did a quick search and could find nothing conclusive. What's interesting is the argument that they are "non-polluting" because they run on electricity. Well, the assumption there is that a bus, which has a motor, has exhaust and emissions. But apparently the electricity is made by little fairies under the Magic Kingdom. Otherwise, the electricity comes from a power plant which - generally - runs on fossil fuels and causes the same type of emissions your bus does....though the proper argument is that a power plant is much more fuel efficient than the bus and therefore the emissions are less with the monorail.

 

[doconeill]

That's a good question - I did a quick search and could find nothing conclusive. What's interesting is the argument that they are "non-polluting" because they run on electricity. Well, the assumption there is that a bus, which has a motor, has exhaust and emissions. But apparently the electricity is made by little fairies under the Magic Kingdom. Otherwise, the electricity comes from a power plant which - generally - runs on fossil fuels and causes the same type of emissions your bus does....though the proper argument is that a power plant is much more fuel efficient than the bus and therefore the emissions are less with the monorail.

Plus, the electricity generation can be supplemented through renewable, non-polluting sources (wind, hydro, solar and in some sense nuclear).

I do remember something about the power supply to the existing system being a problem for the Mark VI trainsets when they came on line...something about them being over-spec for power draw and it was draining the system...

 

[CanadianGuy]

That's a good question - I did a quick search and could find nothing conclusive. What's interesting is the argument that they are "non-polluting" because they run on electricity. Well, the assumption there is that a bus, which has a motor, has exhaust and emissions. But apparently the electricity is made by little fairies under the Magic Kingdom. Otherwise, the electricity comes from a power plant which - generally - runs on fossil fuels and causes the same type of emissions your bus does....though the proper argument is that a power plant is much more fuel efficient than the bus and therefore the emissions are less with the monorail.

How about this:

The trains are driven by eight 113 HP motors which are powered by a 600-volt electrical system running through a busbar mounted on each side of the concrete beam.[6] Each train also has seven inverters on board that convert the 600 VDC to 230 VAC for use by the air conditioners and air compressor, and additionally has a battery-backed 35 VDC low-voltage supply that provides power for the train's electronics.

No word on the amperage there.. but I'm guessing with 8 motors per train plus AC and electronics.. and multiple trains in service (most times) that the amperage draw has to be high.

The 600 V is a VERY high voltage line for anything but heavy industrial use.

I know that Reedy Creek (Disney's quasi governmental division that runs the 28000 acres of WDW from an infrastructure standpoint) has an energy division and details of their operations can be found in this handy powerpoint..

http://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pes/switchgear/Presentations/RCESoverviewMay08.pdf

According to that document Disney buys about 75% of their total energy needs (peak load about 200 MW) and generates about 25% or 53 MW on their own... it's a fascinating look just at the pictures of all the switching plants for the electricity that are contained in the PowerPoint.

Regardless the 25% that's generated on site is done with a natural gas powered co-generation plant. That co-generation plant is so named because it generates electricity and also heat for things like hot water and.. well.. duh - heating of certain buildings or operations.

That is relatively clean ... but of course there are environmental costs (including greenhouse gas creation) in the refining of the ill named "natural gas" -- which is of course processed prior to delivery (probably via pipeline) to the co-generation plant... which definitely should burn cleaner than diesel in comparable volumes. The question is how much natural gas is burned to create the 50 MW.

As for the other 150 MW they need to buy on the open market .. odds are excellent that's coming from dirty-coal (vs. clean coal) powered plants.

Knox

 

[skiingfast]

How about this:

No word on the amperage there.. but I'm guessing with 8 motors per train plus AC and electronics.. and multiple trains in service (most times) that the amperage draw has to be high.

The 600 V is a VERY high voltage line for anything but heavy industrial use.
coming from dirty-coal (vs. clean coal) powered plants.

In an electric motor the power draw varies considerebly through a cycle off to on. You are only assuming that is it high.

Regardless of what the amperage number is, as a general rule trains are more effecient than trucks. This is a fact that can be applied to a monorail-bus comparison.

Wether the power is coming from clean or dirty coal make very little difference. Coal either way is not great. But most of the power bought does likely not come from coal anyway. Florida is far from any coal mines.

I have never been to the reedy creek facility to investigate but I do see it as possible that Disney is producing it's own natural gas. All I have to go on is some weak photographic evidence and knowlege of the production of natural gas. Either way they can use gas to produce electricity or power some of the buses if they would like to.

 

[seashoreCM]

Doesn't the Disney monorail train have rubber tires on a concrete beam?

This would put the rolling efficiency comparable to a bus.

Are there any routes (namely not passing through low ceilinged tunnels or low underpasses) that could be run with double decker buses? To allow fewer drivers to move more guests.

 

[skiingfast]

Doesn't the Disney monorail train have rubber tires on a concrete beam?

This would put the rolling efficiency comparable to a bus.

Are there any routes (namely not passing through low ceilinged tunnels or low underpasses) that could be run with double decker buses? To allow fewer drivers to move more guests.

Saying that rolling efficiency is compareable or useful at demonstrating system efficiency is pretty poor. Science wouldn't agree anyway.


Thier are lots of routes that stay under the sun the whole time. Double decker buses would solve one big complaint. On a two door sytem, rolling guest could go in the bottom while walking guests could load, all at the same time. The buses would run less often with the extra seats. It would cause one of the biggest guests complaints about buses to intensify. This would also decrease their effiency quite a bit.

 

[CanadianGuy]

I suspect that it's a fairly efficient system overall..

I just wonder if there could possibly be any LONG term savings to retiring the bus fleet and expanding the monorail.

Amortizing the construction and train costs over say .. 20 years -- and then factoring in train operating and maintenance (vs bus) I suspect it's pretty much a wash (or the buses come out way cheaper) ... primarily because of the construction costs.