Will GREAT Dining Ever Return to WDW?

[BGK]

The truly sad thing is that so, so many people defend the "Disney is a business" argument as if it's written in some business school textbooks that seeking profitability, quality and being innovative are somehow mutually exclusive (they are not). The acceptance of the mediocrity (everywhere in our lives) is what is lowering the standards and we, the consumer, are ultimately to blame.

Well, just try floating this argument on another Disney-fan board (*cough*WDWmagic*cough*), and all the gold star members of the Objectivist Society will come boiling out of the shadows to lecture you on how the sole purpose of any publicly-traded company is to "increase value for the shareholders," and if the company makes a nickle more per square foot converting Victoria and Alberts into a lab where cast members harvest guests' organs, then by Ayn Rand they are morally obligated to do so. And just what kind of America-hating socialist are you anyway?

The hilarity in that statement is the nebulousness of increasing shareholder value. With the entrenchment of high-speed trading, that has come to mean beating your quarterly projections, or getting smashed on the rocks for failing. Not that investment in quality, brand loyalty, et cetera - the very things in Disney's wheelhouse - wouldn't probably yield greater increases in shareholder value. Those would just take years to realize, and the day traders, fund managers, and other weevils don't have that kind of horizon. So, we get McWorld.

 

[Kay1]

No, I can't see things improving with this new emphasis on packaging. We deal with it by eating (and often staying) offsite. We'll be at Disney for a full week this Christmas. We'll have four lunches onsite (Columbia Harbor House, Yak & Yeti, Rose & Crown, and Sci-Fi) but zero dinners.

I'd just like to make the point that good food doesn't necessarily involve fine dining. We like to explore local restaurants be they upscale or absolute dives. As long as the food is delicious, the servers pleasant, and the prices in line with what we get, we're happy. Our favorite restaurant in Orlando is in a strip mall off Kirkman.

 

[princessbride6205]

I'd just like to make the point that good food doesn't necessarily involve fine dining. We like to explore local restaurants be they upscale or absolute dives. As long as the food is delicious, the servers pleasant, and the prices in line with what we get, we're happy. Our favorite restaurant in Orlando is in a strip mall off Kirkman.

Completely agree. I enjoy fine dining as well as lower end places, if the food and service are good. The problem is with value. Disney charges a premium for eating on site whether it's CS, TS or Signature; however, the food is often not premium or even above average. Another fine dining option or two would be nice, but first, I would like to see better quality and service at the existing TS and sig places.
That said we've had some good and great experiences in the past few years, just not as many as I would hope for considering the price.

 

[GeorgeG]

Perhaps we could convince the Disney people to restore the quality to all restaurants with enough variety in choices and prices to accommodate everyone. Good food with reasonable market prices so anyone can have a decent burger or fantastic steak and eat and pay what they can afford. Those on a dining plan would just have to use more credits for more expensive meals or less if they choose to enjoy a really good burger. Everyone should have the dining they desire, but the answer isn't higher prices for less quality. That's just not good business. If it makes sense for people to flock to the "it's for the experience" mentality, then the problem lies with the people, as well as Disney.

 

[BriarRosie]

I appreciate that you believe WDW is held to some other standard, but frankly Disney provides what people are willing to pay for, it is NOT a charity. Sure they are great at customer service and making people special, but they aren't in the business of giving things away. The people spoke by wanting a "deal" (free dining) more than they wanted a true fine dining experience that they are willing to pay for consistently. Sure plenty people would love a prime steak for an Outback Steakhouse price, but that just isn't in the cards. I don't see this changing.

But it doesn't excuse them from serving me an Outback quality "filet mignon" at the Crew's Cup Lounge in December for $40. Shula's filet was a better quality at that price.

The Crew's Cup Lounge menu no longer lists the filet, as of when I was with friends there a couple weeks ago. There are other items no longer there that were on the menu last December, so I have to wonder why it was pared down. I wouldn't order the filet again, at any rate, and I think they only offered the sirloin at the bar now.

 

[jackskellingtonsgirl]

Do any of you remember when Citrico's was only open 5 nights a week? We just started going to WDW in 2005, so that change isn't THAT old. Maybe they need to look at something like that to compensate for not operating at capacity at all times.

The dining plans simply do not work for us. Our son can't eat adult portions at every meal. We like appetizers. When we had the DxDDP a few years ago we lost hundreds of $$. I am not sure how people SAVE money on the plan. I find it difficult to come out ahead EVERY day.

We like the TIW card and we do save money with it. On our last 2 trips we have spent about $2200 on food each time. We stay on property for 2 weeks and eat EVERY meal on property. Next year we will be checking out the Swan/Dolphin restaurants in addition to Flying Fish and Yachtsman. Part of the reason we love those 2 is because we have specific servers we request and they make all the difference.

We have never had any desire to venture off property, but last night DH and I had that discussion. We may want to think about renting a car and going off property for dinner. We almost never go back to the parks at night (even though we always say we will), so we COULD go eat somewhere else.

 

[brunette8706]

Disney may not be Walmart yet, but it's getting pretty darn close to Target at this point. Have you seen what they sell in their stores ?
In 2006, our first trip, each resort had its own merchandise, with a bit of the generic stuff thrown in. Now all you can find is the generic stuff. AKL's gift shop is the exception, and even there, the selection is ridiculous compared to what they were offering just 2-3 years ago.
And the quality... $22 for a shirt that you'll be able to wash once or twice if you're lucky before the design starts to fade.

Disney is cutting corners in every possible way (2 Fantasmics a week instead of 2 Fantasmics a night), hiring less personnel, buying everything in bulk... that sounds dangerously close to Wally World.

*
Very interesting and unfortunately true. The Disney Store, used to be like the FAO Swartz in toys and atmosphere! No MORE!!! It's like walking into your local Walmart, with SALE SIGNS, cheap bins, floresent (sp) lighting it's horrible. I remember about 10-15 years ago, they used to have a Disney movie play on a huge screen. And frankly it just put me in the mind of Disney, so much so I wanted to buy tickets! What happened to the Disney Standard?

 

[brunette8706]

But it doesn't excuse them from serving me an Outback quality "filet mignon" at the Crew's Cup Lounge in December for $40. Shula's filet was a better quality at that price.

The Crew's Cup Lounge menu no longer lists the filet, as of when I was with friends there a couple weeks ago. There are other items no longer there that were on the menu last December, so I have to wonder why it was pared down. I wouldn't order the filet again, at any rate, and I think they only offered the sirloin at the bar now.

*
Totally on target. Agreed.

 

[Uncleromulus]

I should chime in here and say that despite my little stories of good restaurants that have disappeared, I still can get some good meals at WDW.

This last trip we ate at Shula's, BlueZoo, Citrico's, Flying Fish, California Grill and Il mulino. I considerthat we ate well at all six spots.

I do agree with Pirate that it would be NICE to see some newer and equally good spots, but I also agree with many of the prior posts which suggest that Disney seems perfectly content in how they feed the "general public". So
I can't see any new "signature" stlyle restaurants opening anytime soon.

Jimmyv: The Poly DID have that nice beachside restaurant--the Papeete Bay. Hula dancer and 3 piece combo entertaining nightly, great view of the Castle. It's the one that went out of business because nobody came. Now it's 'Ohana and jam packed nearly every night.

 

[JimmyV]

Jimmyv: The Poly DID have that nice beachside restaurant--the Papeete Bay. Hula dancer and 3 piece combo entertaining nightly, great view of the Castle. It's the one that went out of business because nobody came. Now it's 'Ohana and jam packed nearly every night.

Yes, I remember that restaurant. It originated the banana stuffed French Toast. But it was never upscale in the way that California Grill or Citricos are. And it wasn't really on the beach. I would build a nice restuarant literally out past the pool on the beach. Papeete Bay failed, in part because it was nothing special. And back then, the Poly was not a "high end" luxury hotel the way it is marketed now. Rates ran from $140-$190 most of the time. It attracted an "across the board" clientele. Now, at $400+, it attracts a different income bracket of guests who would have little problem filling seats the way that Citricos, California Grill and V&A fill seats.

Truth is, WDW always struggled on the high end. Took a while to figure out the right formula. I ate at The Magnolia Room, The Trophy Room, The Lake Buena Vista Club, The Empress Room, The Top the World and the Gulf Coast Room all when they were considered the top end of Disney Dining. None but the Empress Room was any good. As has been pointed out, high prices do not equate to fine dining. But the food scene has changed measurably in the last 15 years and Disney should be able to do a much better job at staking out ground in the fine dining arena.

 

[sotoalf]

I'd love to know with more luxury of detail what the Gulf Coast Room and Empress Room offered. I've got a Birnbaum Guide from 1988 with menus (chateaubriand!). I can't imagine the Gulf Coast Room was very elegant when, according to my research, the restaurant was carved out of convention space.

 

[Planogirl]

What about Ariel's or am I thinking of a different time? Wasn't it also high end?

 

[BEANTOWNDR7]

I might not be the expert in this field because when I go to Disney my main concern is my resort and the parks. When I eat, I eat. However, I do enjoy the food at Disney. I have eaten at alot of the restaurants and quick service locations and I have to say that I have enjoyed pretty much every meal I ever ate at Disney; the only time was at the cafe at All Star Movie resort.

My family and I enjoyed a great meal at Mama Melrose's Restaurant; my wife had the Grilled Chicken Flatbread and I had the Chicken Pipette (incredible). We then had for dessert, the Chocolate Cannoli Cake and the Mama's Tiramasu. The waitress accidentally brought us the Chocolate Amarettini Cheesecake. The waitress was so nice that she let us keep it anyways and we enjoyed all three fantastic desserts. These are the moments I look forward to.

We have enjoyed food at the Contempo Cafe, Beirgarten, Ohana (we enjoyed the most - Breakfast), Chef Mickey's, 50's Cafe, Cinderella's Palace, Pecos Bill Tall Tale Inn and Cafe, Cosmic Ray's and the Electric Umbrella.

I understand everyone's concern on whether Disney will become the WalMart of vacation food (like Six Flags) but seriously are you on vacation primarily for the food or for the overall enjoyment of Disney. Food is only one aspect and with what people pay today, I think Disney does a damn fine job.

 

[TDC Nala]

I've been to Disney so often I've been going primarily for the food, So yes, there are guests that do that. Locals, too.

Sorry, but I think Disney has figured (correctly or not) their bread is buttered on the side outlined by the post above. Great dining won't be coming back. I think it's lucky V&A still exists and hasn't been replaced by another princess meal.

Yes, there is still access to restaurants that are not governed by the dining plan. Try the Swan/Dolphin restaurants sometime. And Sanaa is a Disney restaurant, and one credit on the dining plan, and it's currently as good as any signature (it's off the beaten path though - if it was located in a park or near one, I am guessing the quality would not be as high).

 

[disneydreaming4now]

IMO, the quality of things have gone down everywhere. I paid a ridiculous amount of $$$$ for my children to have the backpack, of choice, for school and it is not holding up well. Anyway, The first few years we visited Mickey the food and extras were amazing. (The little spoon/straws that had characters attached, in the floats. Just to name one I remember so well.) All these things seem to have been taken away. Since the DDP promotions have been so popular, I feel the food quality has gone down some also. The Signature restaurants were great several years ago. NOW, Everytime we visit the Wonderful World , the menu items are being replaced with lower quality food items that are just not comparable. Only the repeat Disney vacationers would realize this. Personally, We love Fine Dining and our children do too. My DS6 wears his suit and tie, or slacks and dress shirt, to all signature restaurants. This is something we do at home, we do it on vacation also. The only way it should be!! He is well behaved at all restaurants, but when he wears his "business suit",lol, he knows its time to be a complete gentleman. He even pulls my chair out for me. Its a thing we are proud of and we love to take them with us. I can understand why lots of people dont want children present when they are paying top dollar at fine dining establishments but some children are very well mannered. We havent eaten at V&A because of the no children policy. I hope to get to enjoy it one day, before it is gone. I also hope to see better dining in "The World". People are there for different reasons; theme parks, relaxation, or culinary delights. Whatever it may be, we are paying for what Disney should be striving to provide their very best. Its very frusterating to not see what we once saw... My family goes for all three. However, for whatever reason Mickey is cutting corners, It doesn't keep me away! I love being there and It's still magical.

 

[ghidorah97]

A few (seemingly) random observations and comments.

There are literally tens of thousands of people staying at WDW on any given night, and as folks on this Board know, the competiton level for tables at the "nicer" restaurants (however one wants to define that) is brutal. The notion that WDW cannot support two or three more high end "off the dining plan" restaurants is ludicrous. There is room for another V&A, and perhaps two more places that are what the CG used to be.

As much as we like to talk about affordability and value, there are still, on any given night, thousands of people staying in Disney hotels that charge in excess of $400 per night. Indeed, many people pay multiples of that. I mean no disrespect to the hard-working folks who save for a vacation at the All-Star Resorts and go with free dining, but most of the people paying $500 per room at the Grand Floridian don't care nearly as much about whether an entree costs $30 or $45. That $15 increase is not going to move the meter on their $10,000 vacation. Folks who often vacation at Ritz Carlton's, Four Seasons, and the Luxury Collection hotels go to WDW also. This clientele would no doubt appreciate a higher level of dining in smaller venues that are not on the dining plan. No need to displace any existing restaurants. But adding a few more venues into a system that already books to capacity all of its TS restaurants months in advance is not asking much.

Take the Poly as an example. Guests there pay over $400 for a room. The clientele there is obviously pretty well off. Yet there is not a single fine dining restaurant in the complex. You may love Ohana, and this is not a debate about its alure. But waiters walking aroung hacking off chunks of meat from a communal skewer is not "fine dining" by any definition. There is no reason why the Poly cannot have a 100 seat beachside restaurant with a view of the fireworks. I promise you that it would sell out every night.

For people who have commented that "guests do not travel to WDW for the food", well, I think that misses the point. People would if they could. Not too long ago, WDW was featured on the cover of Wine Spectator magazine as a dining destination. It had been written up in every major food magazine. It hosts a Food and Wine event for several weeks a year. It CAN be a dining destination, but only once it figures out the proper interplay between the dining plan and fine dining. Consider this evolution. Appetizers are often the place where the chef gets to experiment and create the most. But apps aren't part of the dining plan, so Disney now serves fewer apps than ever before. What is the logical result? The kitchens stop caring about apps and the quality of the dining experience suffers. I think that the best solution, and one that would certainly work given the economic demographic of WDW guests coupled with the fact that restaurants are fully booked months in advance, is to open a handful of new, non-dining plan restaurants that are higher end, smaller scale places serving food that can compete with New York, Chicago, San Francisco, Napa Valley and Los Angeles. If nothing else, the smaller size of these places would create a buzz of exclusivity, and we all know what that means. People would be falling all over themselves to get in. And if it is unpalatable (pardon the pun) to exclude dining plan guests, then simply give them a certain dollar credit toward their bill and have them pay OOP for the overage.

Came across this thread and have thoroughly enjoyed the discussion. Was going to post my thoughts, but it would almost be a complete repeat of JimmyV's (and then I'd be accused of plagarism!). So, I'll keep it simple and just quote Jimmy and say...

ME 2!

 

[minnie56]

I think back on Disney with lots of wonderful food memories!
I remember when Chef Mickeys was 'Pueblo' I think it was? Amazing food...and the California Grill was a dinner theatre, the food and shows top notch. Wow..I could go on..so many changes.

I hate the dining plan..I wish it would go!

 

[sotoalf]

I think back on Disney with lots of wonderful food memories!
I remember when Chef Mickeys was 'Pueblo' I think it was? Amazing food...and the California Grill was a dinner theatre, the food and shows top notch. Wow..I could go on..so many changes.

I hate the dining plan..I wish it would go!

The Pueblo Room -- we ate there in summer '87. It served terrible Italian food. See? WDW has improved its food.

 

[Planogirl]

Why would they name an Italian restaurant "Pueblo"? That seems odd.

Anyway, Chef Mickey's food is not particularly good so if it was once worse, I shudder to imagine. However, Chef Mickey's does what it's supposed to and that's fine. I don't see why there can't be places like Chef Mickey's AND good fine dining establishments.

 

[minnie56]

Well we were there some time before that...was just DH and I and our daughter was born in 84 so prior to then and the food was excellent-what can I say