Will a Rental Crackdown Reset DVC Resale Prices?

[Genie+]

As already mentioned, the easiest way to help with the excessive demand to cut down on walking is to make the points difference between the views.

I would love for them to do this but figure they likely prefer the way it increases value to early booking and home resort.

eta - point charts should really reflect demand.

 

[crvetter]

The rule say family non owner family members is personal use…. So I don’t see a violation there…..
if you’re trying to argue DVD is going to call letting my kids use my points as commercial use, well that will be an interesting dicussion

It even explicitly states you can rent your points (just not for commercial activity) and the next sentence says you'll be competing with WDW. So it seems pretty clear that some rental activity is allowed.

So I can let anyone I want to use my points as a gift, in the POS. I can even rent my points, in the POS. What I can't do is use my points as a means of a business, which is the commerical activity clause. So if I consistently rent out a bucket of points year over year I could see that as commercial activity. I can't see them ever saying I can't year over year gift a reservation.

 

[Robbie Cottam]

It even explicitly states you can rent your points (just not for commercial activity) and the next sentence says you'll be competing with WDW. So it seems pretty clear that some rental activity is allowed.

So I can let anyone I want to use my points as a gift, in the POS. I can even rent my points, in the POS. What I can't do is use my points as a means of a business, which is the commerical activity clause. So if I consistently rent out a bucket of points year over year I could see that as commercial activity. I can't see them ever saying I can't year over year gift a reservation.

Totally agree

 

[crvetter]

Let me see if I have this straight.

Everyone books at 11 months with no walking = equal opportunity (not guarantee) to book rooms.
Everyone walks their reservations = equal opportunity to book rooms.

vs. our current situation:

Some people walk reservations while most wait until 11 months = advantage to the walkers

In other words, to have fair and equal opportunity to books rooms, every single owner must walk reservations, which we all know is a somewhat cumbersome process over many weeks or months.

I've heard all the arguments in favor of walking. Still don't like it.

I don't necessarily agree or disagree with walking, never had an issue at 11 months, but I agree most (if not all) solutions will make DVC less enjoyable for everyone in the long run even if it doesn't seem like it now. I think it is disingenuous to say our current system isn't fair. We have exactly the latter situation "Everyone walks their reservations = equal opportunity to book rooms." Just because some make the choice not to walk doesn't mean they can't walk their room.

This ultimately comes down to education of the user not knowing how walking works (again multiple CMs have even mentioned this to me, and others reported the same) or making the choice not to be cause of some moral standpoint or the time required to do so. But it doesn't take much to realize it can be done when the documents say you can book Check-In 11 months out and modify your reservation whenever you want. I personally figured out one could do this before ever seeing it reported anywhere

 

[New Mouse]

Disney also created this problem with absurd rack rates.

To make DVC seem like a good deal, the rack rates needed to be x% higher than the dvc price.

Disney has absurd standards in general for required profit margin on all products. It's easy for a company to swoop in, rent points, ask for half the profit margin Disney does and be extremely successful selling Disney's own product.

Look at all the brokers now who don't list a price per point, but instead show the % off Disney's price. In reality those folks are often getting $30 a point on a lot of those reservations.

 

[pianomanzano]

Very late to this conversation and it's constantly being updated faster than I can read it. Haven't seen talk of this, but could a guest certificate system work to curb excessive renting? Like if the owner or associate member is not listed as a guest on the reservation, then you're allowed say 2 free guest certificates per UY and any additional guest certificates would cost money (perhaps more expensive to make them cost prohibitive, the more guest certificates you use?). Ultimately, I see this as an annoyance for Disney that they don't want to solve, but if money is being thrown their way, I feel they're more motivated to "solve" the problem.

 

[MerlinandtheMouse]

I don't necessarily agree or disagree with walking, never had an issue at 11 months, but I agree most (if not all) solutions will make DVC less enjoyable for everyone in the long run even if it doesn't seem like it now. I think it is disingenuous to say our current system isn't fair. We have exactly the latter situation "Everyone walks their reservations = equal opportunity to book rooms." Just because some make the choice not to walk doesn't mean they can't walk their room.

This ultimately comes down to education of the user not knowing how walking works (again multiple CMs have even mentioned this to me, and others reported the same) or making the choice not to be cause of some moral standpoint or the time required to do so. But it doesn't take much to realize it can be done when the documents say you can book Check-In 11 months out and modify your reservation whenever you want. I personally figured out one could do this before ever seeing it reported anywhere

The thing is, walking works now because as you’ve said, some make the choice not to walk, but what happens when Disney changes nothing and everyone is forced to walk? We just get into a ridiculous situation where you’re then forced to walk earlier and earlier? So I have to plan my trip 2 years in advance now? Adjusting my booking every 2-3 days and if I miss one time, I lose my 2 year advance opportunity? When does it stop working for “everyone” as many people keep saying it does now. I’ve personally never been told about waking by a guide and I’ve asked about it too. So some get told about walking some don’t but we’re all told about our 11mo priority window. That continues to be the fairest situation where everyone is aware of the rules.

There are more and more dates and periods of time that walking has become a necessity. That is only going to increase as we’re all forced to walk to get the dates we want, potentially blocking another persons booking date and so those people might start walking now to also sure they don’t get blocked, even if it’s temporarily. I agree changing it so owners are penalized for too many modifications is not the answer but saying not to change anything isn’t an answer either.

What if instead of curbing the amount of changes why not just delay when you can change. Between every modification you have to wait 24hrs?

 

[Bearval]

I don’t think Disney has an issue with owners renting out unused point..
‘I think the concern is entities owning several thousand points, with no intention to ever use them.._
competing directly against Disney, at an advertised 65 percent discount….

I think this has as much to do with protect members as it does with protecting profits….for disney

I don't think Disney has an issue with owners renting the points out themselves but I do think they are now having an issue when a commercial third party broker is being used especially when they are advertising that you can save up to 65% off. Disney is probably looking at every third party rental as lost revenue.

 

[Hubalorian]

The thing is, walking works now because as you’ve said, some make the choice not to walk, but what happens when Disney changes nothing and everyone is forced to walk? We just get into a ridiculous situation where you’re then forced to walk earlier and earlier? So I have to plan my trip 2 years in advance now? Adjusting my booking every 2-3 days and if I miss one time, I lose my 2 year advance opportunity? When does it stop working for “everyone” as many people keep saying it does now. I’ve personally never been told about waking by a guide and I’ve asked about it too. So some get told about walking some don’t but we’re all told about our 11mo priority window. That continues to be the fairest situation where everyone is aware of the rules.

There are more and more dates and periods of time that walking has become a necessity. That is only going to increase as we’re all forced to walk to get the dates we want, potentially blocking another persons booking date and so those people might start walking now to also sure they don’t get blocked, even if it’s temporarily. I agree changing it so owners are penalized for too many modifications is not the answer but saying not to change anything isn’t an answer either.

What if instead of curbing the amount of changes why not just delay when you can change. Between every modification you have to wait 24hrs?

You wouldn’t be able to walk for two years without sacrificing some points. You can’t walk into a new use year because those points are passed the banking window.

 

[Sandisw]

Let me see if I have this straight.

Everyone books at 11 months with no walking = equal opportunity (not guarantee) to book rooms.
Everyone walks their reservations = equal opportunity to book rooms.

vs. our current situation:

Some people walk reservations while most wait until 11 months = advantage to the walkers

In other words, to have fair and equal opportunity to books rooms, every single owner must walk reservations, which we all know is a somewhat cumbersome process over many weeks or months.

I've heard all the arguments in favor of walking. Still don't like it.

How is that any different than some owners who book right at 11 months at 8 am and some who work and can’t and have to wait until noon?

If we all have the ability to do something, but certain factors interfere, then it’s never going to be 100% equal.

Thst is not the same as being unfair.

 

[Grumpy by Birth]

It's not a perfect analogy, but walking seems less like "cutting in line" and more like when concert tickets, new i-phone, shoes, etc. go on sale and the store opens at 8 am. Someone shows up at the store at 8 am and discovers a line wrapped around the block full of the people who went to the effort of camping out the night before to be first in line.

ETA: another somewhat similar illustration... a lot of times when I go to buy popular tickets from ticketmaster, it says they go on sale at noon. When I log in 15-60 minutes early, I sometimes get added to a virtual waiting room/queue. That earlier waiting room time wasn't publicized, but because I logged in early, I'm now in line ahead of others who wait until the published time to log in.

 

[Sandisw]

The thing is, walking works now because as you’ve said, some make the choice not to walk, but what happens when Disney changes nothing and everyone is forced to walk? We just get into a ridiculous situation where you’re then forced to walk earlier and earlier? So I have to plan my trip 2 years in advance now? Adjusting my booking every 2-3 days and if I miss one time, I lose my 2 year advance opportunity? When does it stop working for “everyone” as many people keep saying it does now. I’ve personally never been told about waking by a guide and I’ve asked about it too. So some get told about walking some don’t but we’re all told about our 11mo priority window. That continues to be the fairest situation where everyone is aware of the rules.

There are more and more dates and periods of time that walking has become a necessity. That is only going to increase as we’re all forced to walk to get the dates we want, potentially blocking another persons booking date and so those people might start walking now to also sure they don’t get blocked, even if it’s temporarily. I agree changing it so owners are penalized for too many modifications is not the answer but saying not to change anything isn’t an answer either.

What if instead of curbing the amount of changes why not just delay when you can change. Between every modification you have to wait 24hrs?

Even if every person walks their reservation, you are still going to have the majority of days when demand doesn’t exceed supply that it won’t be an issue.

Walking is only noticed when more people want dates for rooms than rooms that exist. or want upcoming dates for more rooms than rooms exist.

If you go in today. And see rooms still there, it doesn’t mean no one is walking those rooms. People could be…you just don’t know it because it’s not a busy travel day.

And that’s the whole point…every day rooms get taken for a variety of reasons but as long as the supply outweighs the demand, then everyone who wants a room for their trip will get it…even if it means it requires a waitlist or a little extra effort.

 

[Nabas]

You wouldn’t be able to walk for two years without sacrificing some points. You can’t walk into a new use year because those points are passed the banking window.

A reservation cannot be split across Use Years.

For example, if you have a December Use Year but want a 7 night vacation to start November 28, it’s my understanding that you have to book this as two separate reservations.

 

[MerlinandtheMouse]

You wouldn’t be able to walk for two years without sacrificing some points. You can’t walk into a new use year because those points are passed the banking window.

Sorry I think I knew that, bad example. Now that I’m thinking about it, what is the ideal UY to walk for an early December trip? That’s turning out to be an unexpectedly important factor

 

[Hubalorian]

Sorry I think I knew that, bad example. Now that I’m thinking about it, what is the ideal UY to walk for an early December trip? That’s turning out to be an unexpectedly important factor

I think that depends on the resort. I don’t think there is an “Ideal” one for AKV for example.

However, I’d venture to guess most other resorts would be just fine with an October use year

 

[crvetter]

The thing is, walking works now because as you’ve said, some make the choice not to walk, but what happens when Disney changes nothing and everyone is forced to walk? We just get into a ridiculous situation where you’re then forced to walk earlier and earlier? So I have to plan my trip 2 years in advance now? Adjusting my booking every 2-3 days and if I miss one time, I lose my 2 year advance opportunity? When does it stop working for “everyone” as many people keep saying it does now. I’ve personally never been told about waking by a guide and I’ve asked about it too. So some get told about walking some don’t but we’re all told about our 11mo priority window. That continues to be the fairest situation where everyone is aware of the rules.

There are more and more dates and periods of time that walking has become a necessity. That is only going to increase as we’re all forced to walk to get the dates we want, potentially blocking another persons booking date and so those people might start walking now to also sure they don’t get blocked, even if it’s temporarily. I agree changing it so owners are penalized for too many modifications is not the answer but saying not to change anything isn’t an answer either.

What if instead of curbing the amount of changes why not just delay when you can change. Between every modification you have to wait 24hrs?

That wasn't my point. My point was to say it being called unfair was disingenuous because everyone can walk if they want. I wasn't making a critique if the last case in the post I quoted that the final case they deemed fair was no different than the current case. Because the only difference was a user choice not to walk.

Also the more and more dates and periods of times that walking is a necessity isn't because walking is a necessity because of walking. It is a necessity of high demand rooms. Stopping won't fix that, maybe you are right it might making the booking system seem more enjoyable to use, but even that I'm not 100% will be the case in the end.

Any limitation on modifications to the window will only benefit large point holders because they can always add days to the end and eventually drop the front days when the limitation window has passed.

 

[Unclelude]

Look at all the brokers now who don't list a price per point, but instead show the % off Disney's price. In reality those folks are often getting $30 a point on a lot of those reservations.

I'm in the stop the commercially owned confirmed reservations camp.

This thread prompted me to look around, and the volume of confirmed reservations out there for competitive rooms is gross.. I find it improbable those are all individuals...

As new mouse suggests, renting for waay more than $16-$22 per point ( or whatever the range is )

Id guess a bunch of those confirmed ressies are dropping off at 31 days ... Has anyone noticed availability at 31 days? I suppose wait-list gobbles them up... Maybe a silver lining??!?

Good luck!

 

[Grumpy by Birth]

Sorry I think I knew that, bad example. Now that I’m thinking about it, what is the ideal UY to walk for an early December trip? That’s turning out to be an unexpectedly important factor

I might be doing the "math" wrong (someone please correct me if I have), but I think a FEB UY would provide the most walking advantage for a December reservation.

On March 1st, you'd be able to book for the following February 1st and walk the reservation forward to that December without crossing UY. I think you wouldn't be able to take advantage of booking a January reservation in February, because that would have you crossing UYs as you moved it forward.

JAN UYs don't exist. Otherwise JAN would allow for an even longer walk for a December reservation.

Again, someone please jump in if I've completely botched the logistics of this.

 

[tx911]

How is that any different than some owners who book right at 11 months at 8 am and some who work and can’t and have to wait until noon?

Let's see,

One is an unfortunate work schedule that precludes being able to book at 8am (as an aside, I'd be surprised if anyone's schedule is so rigid that they can't take 5 minutes to book).

The other is by choice using a loophole in the system to gain advantage over many other owners. We all know if there were no advantage to be gained by walking, it would not be done.

These are circular arguments that we've gone round and round about. I don't really have anything else to add. As I said, I've heard all the arguments, and I'm not moved.

 

[MerlinandtheMouse]

Even if every person walks their reservation, you are still going to have the majority of days when demand doesn’t exceed supply that it won’t be an issue.

Walking is only noticed when more people want dates for rooms than rooms that exist. or want upcoming dates for more rooms than those that list.

If you go in today. And see rooms still there, it doesn’t mean no one is walking those rooms. People could be…you just don’t know it because it’s not a busy travel day.

And that’s the whole point…every day rooms get taken for a variety of reasons but as long as the supply outweighs the demand, then everyone who wants a room for their trip will get it…even if it means it requires a waitlist or a little extra effort.

I completely understand what you’re saying. It’s one of the reasons I didn’t really comment here because I really do see both sides having valid arguments. But I still think there are problems with it, even if it just comes down to the morals of it. That’s clearly just a matter of opinion here so that’s irrelevant to the overall conversation. I can accept that it a part of the process, even if I don’t like it. I will agree that I think the issue of walking is exacerbated by the commercial market taking a lot of these very desirable rooms and if Disney does crack down on commercial renting, it could ease the pressure on the make walked rooms/times. At least I hope it will.