Why would a family do this?? :-(

[stepmommyof1]

I made a post here but came back in to edit it, I removed all the personal details and instead am just asking the question- why would a family be fighting the hospital to get a do not resucitate (sp?) order for their elderly mother, who is still able to speak and be clear and everything and she has said that she DOES want every measure to be taken in the event that she could die. And the family is trying to get a do not resuscitate order! They will not get the order because it is not the patients wish and the patient is still of sound mind to decide for herself. ...but I don't get it, wouldnt you want to keep your mom around as long as possible...especially if she herself said she's not ready to go?? I could understand a do not resuscitate order if the patient said she wanted to go. But since she wants to stay, why would her kids be trying to get a do not resuscitate order?

 

[stepmommyof1]

Oh I don't know if it matters but I have no idea what her medicalmproblems are, obviously dad wasn't going to tell that part so maybe there's an answer there... Though I still don't know why you'd want a DNR for your mother who doesn't want one...nomatter what the health problems were..

 

[LuvCuteBoys]

That's hard... I absolutely understand where you're coming from, but seeing how my grandmother lived out her life because she didn't want a DNR was really, really hard.

Obviously, you never know. But I can't imagine that this family's thought process is anything other than wanting what's best for her.

((hugs))

It's hard.
Very, very hard.

 

[DMickey28]

Obviously without knowing her medical conditions or being in the situation there could be something that we don't know but .... it is sad.

My MIL used to "sit" for an elderly woman last year. She was 91, physically limited but very sharp and very there. She still lived at home and paid for 24 hour assistance via home health aids and adult babysitters. Her daughters would fight with her daily about putting her in a nursing home because THEY didn't want to be bothered with her daily care and making meals and checking on her all the time. THEY couldn't handle the situation. Eventually they won out and the woman is now slowly dying in a nursing home because she was stripped of everything she cared about.

She used to cry to my MIL that she wishes my MIL was her daughter because all her daughters did was fight with her about what she wanted. She felt like burden to her daughters. My MIL lost her mom 15+ years ago and would have given her right hand for more time with her mom.

Very sad.

 

[clarabelle]

If the patient doesn't want it- then that would be the deal breaker I would think.
Especially since she is of sound mind.

That being said....
I think sometimes the most loving, caring thing we can do for someone is let them go.
When I was a nurse I often saw elderly patients being put through hell because the kids "couldn't let Mama go"
Feeding tubes, ventilators ect...
These things can be expensive and painful and only destroy the quality of life that the patients have left. In my opinion an extra few months is not worth it.

Our system rewards doctors for aggressive treatment and these things become normal -maybe not always for the right reasons.

 

[Disney Doll]

If my mother were of sound mind and capable of making her own decisions, then I would not go against her decision, even if I felt it was the wrong one.

There are a lot of gray areas in DNR scenarios. First and foremost, though, is that if the patient is capable of making the decision, then the decision is the patient's to make. In this case, if it is an elderly person and your father is afraid that her family is somehow going to railroad her or another facility into making her a DNR, there are regulatory agencies to which this can be reported....sort of like DCF for elderly people. This would put this agency "on notice" that this lady needs to be protected from her family.

As far as why soemone would do that to a family member...money or because they are getting sick of having to deal with her issues as an elderly person are usually the 2 biggest reasons I have seen in my 28 years as a nurse. Sometimes it's the 2 in combination...ie-she has money and because dealing with her issues is going through a lot of it they are afraid there will be nothing left when she dies that they can inherit.

My feeling that there is a special place in Hell reserved for people who could do this.

 

[Rumpus]

I would think that someone at the facility would be able notify the AG or someone at the state and get a protective order in this situation.

 

[stepmommyof1]

Well my dad had to go in to work today on Sunday to deal with this...he cannot give us details obviously but what he told us was what I posted- mom does not want a do not resuscitate, kids do, but mom is of sound mind to decide for herself, kids threatened to take her somewhere else, my dad said you do what you need to do but no one is going to order a DNR against the wishes of a patient of sound mind. Dad has went to those elderly services people before and I wouldn't be surprised if he calls them in again. Dad is very, very protective of his elderly ones. He sits down and has long uninterrupted chats with them, spending way more time than neccessary, just talking with them, not just anout medical stuff but also anout emotional, family life, how theyre feeling and what they've been up to lately and he makes sure he understands what they want, and then he advocate for them as long as he can and when it doesn't work he calls in those people to help the situation. So if the kids really take their mom someplace else, so they can try to get another place to give them a DNR, I'm sure he will be on the phone in 2 seconds flat.
What I don't get is what kind of kids would want to do this. I can't imagine wanting to speed along my parents death

 

[roliepolieoliefan]

Very sad!

Usually as a nurse I see it the other way around. The patient has a terminal illness and is able to deal with it, and wants a DNR.

The kids can't come to grip with it and fights mom or dad on the DNR.

 

[disykat]

I want a DNR, and am worried my husband will fight it. He does not want one, but I'm prepared to honor his wishes despite disagreeing with him.

A DNR doesn't mean they kill you. It gives the medical professionals permission not to take extraordinary measures.

 

[bigbabyblues]

If the person is of sound mind, she should get a Living Will stating her wishes done ASAP. I'm not sure where you can do this, but I know the Social Services department at the hospital I work in does in.

 

[mickeymedic]

Well my dad had to go in to work today on Sunday to deal with this...he cannot give us details obviously but what he told us was what I posted- mom does not want a do not resuscitate, kids do, but mom is of sound mind to decide for herself, kids threatened to take her somewhere else, my dad said you do what you need to do but no one is going to order a DNR against the wishes of a patient of sound mind. Dad has went to those elderly services people before and I wouldn't be surprised if he calls them in again. Dad is very, very protective of his elderly ones. He sits down and has long uninterrupted chats with them, spending way more time than neccessary, just talking with them, not just anout medical stuff but also anout emotional, family life, how theyre feeling and what they've been up to lately and he makes sure he understands what they want, and then he advocate for them as long as he can and when it doesn't work he calls in those people to help the situation. So if the kids really take their mom someplace else, so they can try to get another place to give them a DNR, I'm sure he will be on the phone in 2 seconds flat.
What I don't get is what kind of kids would want to do this. I can't imagine wanting to speed along my parents death

I agree with you that it is terrible for kids to want to try to force a DNR on their parent who is still of sound mind and clearly does not want the DNR. However, a DNR does not speed along a person's death. A DNR order simply states that if a patient goes into respiratory or cardiac arrest, that ventilations and compressions will not be started. A DNR does not withhold other aspects of medical care. There are other legal documents out there that go beyond compressions and ventilations. In NY, we have the MOLST form. This form contains information about whether or not a patient wishes to be intubated, have IVs started, recieve hydration or nutrition through tubes, etc. But the DNR only dictates what is done once breathing and/or heartbeat stops.

 

[Agri]

FWIW, my mom is going to be 60 this year and has already said that if/when her brain cancer comes back, she wants a DNR. Of course, she trusts me to make her medical decisions most of the time now, anyway.

Honestly, some people are selfish. On the other hand, sometimes the kids know what's best for the parent - even if they seem to be of sound mind. My mom right now is not always of sound mind even though she comes across that way. I cannot tell you how many people do not notice anything being wrong with her - of course, they do not spend the amount of time with her that I do.

Also, DNRs are kind of a new thing. We could not get one for my grandmother or my grandfather until they were too far gone to make the decisions themselves. My grandmother had Alzheimer's and while she was still 'of sound mind' she would say that she didn't want to live that way - BUT - she still wanted her doctors to do everything they could to keep her alive. A DNR just was not in line with their personal beliefs. My grandfather finally gave in to getting one for her when she got worse and we explained to him what life-saving measures might do to her (broken ribs from CPR, the fear and confusion of procedures and being in a hospital, etc.).

While she was in the hospital, she would be able to have a conversation with someone, but a lot of it was just reflexive reactions. The minute the doctor left the room, mom would turn to me and say "What was that all about?" after having a what any observer would think was a normal conversation. She had a few doctors who thought she was doing better than she was because of this - and that I was holding her back. They did not believe me that she was not comprehending the conversations because I was "too close to view her progress objectively". I'm sure this doctor thought he was doing the right thing and that my mother was truly having a conversation with him, but she was not. Her reflexive reaction was to nod and agree whether she understood what was being said to her or not. (The doctor eventually thought she had short-term memory issues, not comprehension issues. An easy conclusion to draw if, again, you didn't know my mother and the type of person she is. She was raised to be eager to please, so that is what she did - she tried to please her doctors.)

Every case is different and without knowing the family personally, its not fair to jump to conclusions. Especially if you haven't had to deal with making medical decisions for an older relative who could no longer truly make them for themselves.

 

[MomRN]

I have to agree with the other nurses... usually we see it the other way around. But, if those are her wishes, then those are her wishes. I hope that someone has explained the difference between a DNR and "comfort measures" (this is what we call it in our hospital).

Since one of the few times you sometimes see family is on admission, I always make sure this topic is talked about with family present when possible. Typically I get an alert and oriented pt and I ask them their wishes, and I make sure the family understands their wishes. It's a tough topic to just bring up, so I talk about that elephant in the room.

Sadly, even in my position, I don't know all of my dads wishes. He's only in his 50's- good health- but anything can happen. I'm his only kin. It's all on me. I'm going to have to address this with him one day.

 

[js]

Obviously without knowing her medical conditions or being in the situation there could be something that we don't know but .... it is sad.

My MIL used to "sit" for an elderly woman last year. She was 91, physically limited but very sharp and very there. She still lived at home and paid for 24 hour assistance via home health aids and adult babysitters. Her daughters would fight with her daily about putting her in a nursing home because THEY didn't want to be bothered with her daily care and making meals and checking on her all the time. THEY couldn't handle the situation. Eventually they won out and the woman is now slowly dying in a nursing home because she was stripped of everything she cared about.

She used to cry to my MIL that she wishes my MIL was her daughter because all her daughters did was fight with her about what she wanted. She felt like burden to her daughters. My MIL lost her mom 15+ years ago and would have given her right hand for more time with her mom.

Very sad.

OMG that is VERY sad!!

One mother can take care of 5 kids but 5 kids have a hard time taking care of 1 mother!

 

[hopemax]

Maybe it's the same type of fear that usually accompanies these decisions; just manifesting itself in a different way. Maybe their Mom dying quickly isn't as terrifying a prospect to them, as something unanticipated happening to her that leaves her hooked up to machines, while she slowly wastes away and they have to watch? Maybe, they want to avoid having to experience all the reasons that people normally give for wanting a DNR.

 

[jl]

For a long time my very elderly mother was confused about what DNR really was....she thought it meant if she passed out, no one would help. Even when it was explained to her, dementia, etc., had set it, it was hard to explain. Eventually she did sign for DNR. Sometimes it comes down to quality of life. Comfort and care she needs; the latest cutting edge medical last ditch efforts are not what she needs.

 

[hereyago]

Maybe it's the same type of fear that usually accompanies these decisions; just manifesting itself in a different way. Maybe their Mom dying quickly isn't as terrifying a prospect to them, as something unanticipated happening to her that leaves her hooked up to machines, while she slowly wastes away and they have to watch? Maybe, they want to avoid having to experience all the reasons that people normally give for wanting a DNR.

Exactly. I don't think the situation in OP's post was about the family wanting to kill the DM off. I really don't understand why people do not get things in order so the family doesn't have to make that decision. They may be fine at the moment to say I want this or not, but there may come a time, where they can't.

My DF was diagnosed with lung cancer. As soon as he was diagnosed, he put things in order. I was the durable POA, medical directive,etc. he put a DNR in place so I wouldn't have to make that call. People don't want to see their loved ones suffer, but at the same time, they, at least I know I didn't want to be the one to say, do not do anything to sustain his life. I didn't want to be the one to end his life. Flame away, i didn't want to see him suffer, but I also didn't want to be the one thinking I killed him.

 

[Jessica14]

I think some people fear seeing and/or caring for thier loved one in a vegitative state and maybe that's what the feeling is. She's OK now, but if she is resusitated there could be significant brain damage and no quality of life. Maybe that's what everyone is looking at as opposed to something else.

I remember that when I was 25 years old, I was going in for laproscopic surgery. My Dad kept telling me to sign a DNR because I didn't want to live like a vegetable. I was 25 for heaven sake! But that's all he could think of and feels like no one should be a burden. My guess is he's had one for years "just in case!"

Anyway, its hard to make an informed opinion without details. I wish this family luck.
Jessica

 

[Pig Pen]

So there's two ways of looking at this.

1. She's of sound mind, it's her body, they have no say over it so end of debate. If she never wants a DNR, she should put it in writing now.

2. They want her to sign a DNR BEFORE she is senile/demented and cannot do it. That way THEY don't have to make the hard decision in the future.