Why wait times have gotten crazy

[havoc315]

I may be in the minority on this one, but I just dislike menu add ons...at restaurants, theme parks, anywhere. "For an extra $5, do you want preferred parking?" (dislike) "For an extra $40, do you want to add some FP's?"(dislike) For an extra $.50, would you like to make that large?" (dislike) "Would you like to add bacon on that?" (dislike)....just my feelings, and I'm sure Disney loses no sleep over my feelings (neither does any company). Disney takes that $19, that SW charges, and just puts it in the ticket price. Why not make everyone pay that $19, and offer a World Class experience? - better business move. Then, instead of trying to up charge the regular day theme park experience that you already purchased, they offer extras like dessert parties, upscale resorts, extra tours, specialty events (outside normal operating hours).

Horrible business move. That would be like scrapping the value resorts -- Offer Deluxe only. You MUST buy the world class experience. You aren't allowed to buy less.

So you'd be ok, if Disney offered one universal price: Say.... $500 per day. It includes a night in the deluxe hotel, it includes dinner at California Grill, and it includes a day in the park. Everyone is required to buy the $500 "world class experience" You're not allowed to buy anything less than the "world class experience."

Why limit the world class experience just to the amusement park? Why not make the entire property one big world class experience? Why make people pay extra for a hotel room? Why make it extra for them to eat?

Sounds like you're simply customizing the experience that you happen to want. You don't personally want hotel or dinner, so you don't include it. You personally do want FPs, so you are including it. But by your logic, should include it ALL. Throw in the deluxe room, throw in the dinner, throw in the wine.

 

[dlavender]

Horrible business move. That would be like scrapping the value resorts -- Offer Deluxe only. You MUST buy the world class experience. You aren't allowed to buy less.

So you'd be ok, if Disney offered one universal price: Say.... $500 per day. It includes a night in the deluxe hotel, it includes dinner at California Grill, and it includes a day in the park. Everyone is required to buy the $500 "world class experience" You're not allowed to buy anything less than the "world class experience."

Why limit the world class experience just to the amusement park? Why not make the entire property one big world class experience? Why make people pay extra for a hotel room? Why make it extra for them to eat?

Sounds like you're simply customizing the experience that you happen to want. You don't personally want hotel or dinner, so you don't include it. You personally do want FPs, so you are including it. But by your logic, should include it ALL. Throw in the deluxe room, throw in the dinner, throw in the wine.

Again, you are trying to lump other things in with the theme park visit. We aren't talking about dinners, lunches, cruises, desserts....We are talking about the theme park, that's it.

 

[LindsayGorg]

If you saw wait times of 60 minutes for those 3 attractions at 10 AM on days in mid September, I have a few comments (1) you were extremely unlucky, (2) the information on Touring Plans about posted wait times on those dates is WAY off, and (3) this item from Josh at easywdw about crowds in September is also WAY off:

http://www.easywdw.com/uncategorize...what-the-lowest-crowds-of-the-year-look-like/

I think the times were way off. It was like this all week we were there, and when we got back we saw all the reports for the larger crowds. We rope dropped every morning, and were lucky if we got 3 rides in before the crowds descended. I also used the trick of going to the left at MK, and it seemed like everyone else did that also. We got in line for BTMR around 9:30 and waited 40 minutes!!!

 

[dlavender]

Honestly, no. From a purely economics perspective, you make the most money by fragmenting the charges as much as possible. If you charge everybody $100 -- Then there are people who are willing to pay more, but you aren't getting their extra money. And there are people who would be willing to pay less, and you aren't getting their money.

Airlines have become masters at this fragmentation -- charge per bag. Charge more for an aisle seat. Charge for the privilege of picking your seats. All that stuff used to be included, but not separate charges.

Now, from a customer experience:

Let's say I can only afford $100 tickets. If they decide to charge EVERYBODY $200, and give EVERYBODY the same benefit, then I'm left out.
On the other hand, let's say they still offer a $100 "value ticket"... and then offer other types of tickets, for different prices. Then I'm not left out.

Tell me, based on your personal situation, which would be better for you... If they raised ticket prices to $500 per day for everyone, or if they kept the base price at $100, but charged another $400 for FP privileges?

The way I see it, "add on" pricing increased profitability for the seller, and it also increases access for the customers, as they can get a "discount" by not getting the full package.

How about this.... What if they DROPPED the price of non-FP tickets to $25, but increased the price of tickets with FP, to $125... Would you object to that?

Airlines started crying years ago that they were going broke given the high rise in fuel. So they came up with ways to make up the difference. It wasn't a progressive move, but a desperate one. What are airline customer satisfaction rates? In the dumps....Plus, flying can be a necessity, not really the case with a theme park....Apples to oranges.

Why would you charge $81, and hope that people upgrade the extra $19? You are leaving money on the table in that scenario, especially when you know that you can just charge $100 with no loss? If they thought that they could charge $200, they would. If they thought that they could charge $1000, they would.

No, I would not want a $25 shopping only ticket. Could you imagine the congestion and operational nightmare? That's ridiculous.

I think you are drifting a little....

 

[ArwenMarie]

Sure they do..... But you'd have to rob Peter to pay Paul.
For example:

Off site guests -- limited to a maximum of 2 same-day fast passes.

On site value/mod- 3 FPs, booked up to 30 days in advance.

Deluxe guests-- 4 FPs, booked up to 60 days in advance.

Premium deluxe guests/VIPs, etc-- 5 FPs, up to 60 days in advance.

They could do that. Heck they could take all of the FPs and give them to onsite only.

But they aren't.

 

[dlavender]

And to add, they do offer other options for higher prices. Dessert parties, personalized safaris, tours, firework cruises.....They have plenty of options to take the extra money...Bungalows....

 

[havoc315]

Again, you are trying to lump other things in with the theme park visit. We aren't talking about dinners, lunches, cruises, desserts....We are talking about the theme park, that's it.

That's it FOR YOU. You are talking about your personal preferences. For some other people, dinner and hotel is part of the experience. For someone else, just the experience of being in the parks is all that matters, no need for FPs or any attractions. (I have good friends who go at Christmas every year.. They don't even bother with the rides. They just like being there for the fireworks, for walking around the parks, etc).

So you have created a package that is just right for you. Maybe other people want a different package than you want. If one person wants more than you, maybe they should be allowed to pay for more. And if another person wants less than you, maybe they should be allowed to pay for less.

 

[NYHeel]

Horrible business move. That would be like scrapping the value resorts -- Offer Deluxe only. You MUST buy the world class experience. You aren't allowed to buy less.

So you'd be ok, if Disney offered one universal price: Say.... $500 per day. It includes a night in the deluxe hotel, it includes dinner at California Grill, and it includes a day in the park. Everyone is required to buy the $500 "world class experience" You're not allowed to buy anything less than the "world class experience."

Why limit the world class experience just to the amusement park? Why not make the entire property one big world class experience? Why make people pay extra for a hotel room? Why make it extra for them to eat?

Sounds like you're simply customizing the experience that you happen to want. You don't personally want hotel or dinner, so you don't include it. You personally do want FPs, so you are including it. But by your logic, should include it ALL. Throw in the deluxe room, throw in the dinner, throw in the wine.

Can't be too horrible because Disney does this and has for years. They've decided that with the exception of the VIP tours they want a consistent in park experience across all guests no matter where they stay. They choose to differentiate with other ancillary items like dining, hotel rooms, parties...

I think Disney's success says that it's isn't a horrible business decision.

 

[havoc315]

And to add, they do offer other options for higher prices. Dessert parties, personalized safaris, tours, firework cruises.....They have plenty of options to take the extra money...Bungalows....

EXACTLY. That's what I have said from the start of this discussion. They already do it. You forgot park hoppers, pre-opening breakfasts, etc, etc. I'm just saying they should explore doing it a little bit more.

They already offer "Fantasmic dining" where if you buy a dinner, you get a Fantasmic FP. So they are already doing EXACTLY what I suggest. You seem to have zero objections to all the pricing they are already doing, as long as they don't dare expand it at all.

 

[havoc315]

Can't be too horrible because Disney does this and has for years. They've decided that with the exception of the VIP tours they want a consistent in park experience across all guests no matter where they stay. They choose to differentiate with other ancillary items like dining, hotel rooms, parties...

I think Disney's success says that it's isn't a horrible business decision.

No... they mostly do choose to differentiate. You are calling dining and hotels "ancillary" -- Those are BIG money makers. One could even say the rides are really the ancillary items.

Disney is a MASTER of price differentiation -- You can pay for a value, mod, or deluxe. Different deluxes are different prices. Then within each deluxe, you can pay for a standard room, or a garden view, or a water view. Then you can pay more for concierge.
Then in dining, different restaurants for every possible budget. Plus several types of dining plans, at different prices. Then, routinely you get promotions... with promotions like free dining, tied in to the resort where you stay.
Then differentiation in tickets... charging more for park hopping. Charging a different price for water parks. Creating special parties that have upcharges.
Then within the parks, creating custom experiences that you can choose to pay extra for -- Can pay extra to meet characters at a buffet, instead of waiting in long lines. Can get a Fantasmic FP if you book a Fantasmic dining experience. You can book VIP tours.
You can pay extra, staying onsite, to get extra hours in the park. If you stay onsite, you can book your FPs earlier.

The ancillary stuff is the rides -- For now, they haven't price differentiated this ancillary item. But they have differentiated just about everything else.

Let's compare the "in park" experience of a guest who paid extra, versus a guest who paid nothing extra:

The "extra" guest enters the Magic Kingdom at 8:00 a.m., for EMH. Enjoying a half-empty park.
The "base" guest walks in at 9:00, and finds the EMH people are already on line, in front of them.
At 10am, the "extra" guest gets on the Mine Coaster, with the FP that was booked 60 days out.
The "base" guest stands in line for 60 minutes to ride the Mine Coaster, because there were no FPs available 30 days out.
The "extra" guest then goes to lunch at Cinderella's Royal Table, where the Princesses come to them. No need to wait on lines to meet them.
The "base" guest eats their brown bag lunch (said no extra spending), and then they get in 20-40 minute lines to meet the Princesses.
The "extra" guest, seeing the park now getting super crowded, park hops to DHS, on its low crowd day.
The "base" guest, with no park hopper, has to suffer the massive crowd without any other options.
Or assuming they both do hop over to DHS..
The "extra" now has dinner at Brown Derby, and gets a FP for Fantasmic. Can enjoy some rides after dinner, and before the show.. then walk into reserved seating right before show time.
The "base" guest is able to find some bad seats in the way back, and that is still arriving 30 minutes before the show.

As you see -- Even in the "in park" experience can differ dramatically by paying extra. Those are pretty big differences. Very very inconsistent park experiences already.

 

[dlavender]

EXACTLY. That's what I have said from the start of this discussion. They already do it. You forgot park hoppers, pre-opening breakfasts, etc, etc. I'm just saying they should explore doing it a little bit more.

They already offer "Fantasmic dining" where if you buy a dinner, you get a Fantasmic FP. So they are already doing EXACTLY what I suggest. You seem to have zero objections to all the pricing they are already doing, as long as they don't dare expand it at all.

Like I said, they can expand as much as they want outside of the 9-7 experience. I will have 0 objections to any of these "expansions".

I'll take it a step further, if you want to pay $5 more per ride, you can get a Winnie the Pooh cart that has a pillow on the bottom. Again, no objection from me.

If you want to pay $40, and skip the line, pushing waits for those who didn't pay, I have a BIG objection (so does Disney).

You lump the resorts, dessert parties, firework cruises, in with the theme park experience. Myself (and Disney), do not. That is the key difference in our "positions"

 

[havoc315]

They could do that. Heck they could take all of the FPs and give them to onsite only.

But they aren't.

I suspect that they will eventually try different possible arrangements.

There were already rumors of seasonal pricing for tickets, just like for hotels. They are adding more and more and more price differentiation as time goes on.

 

[dlavender]

No... they mostly do choose to differentiate. You are calling dining and hotels "ancillary" -- Those are BIG money makers. One could even say the rides are really the ancillary items.

Disney is a MASTER of price differentiation -- You can pay for a value, mod, or deluxe. Different deluxes are different prices. Then within each deluxe, you can pay for a standard room, or a garden view, or a water view. Then you can pay more for concierge.
Then in dining, different restaurants for every possible budget. Plus several types of dining plans, at different prices. Then, routinely you get promotions... with promotions like free dining, tied in to the resort where you stay.
Then differentiation in tickets... charging more for park hopping. Charging a different price for water parks. Creating special parties that have upcharges.
Then within the parks, creating custom experiences that you can choose to pay extra for -- Can pay extra to meet characters at a buffet, instead of waiting in long lines. Can get a Fantasmic FP if you book a Fantasmic dining experience. You can book VIP tours.
You can pay extra, staying onsite, to get extra hours in the park. If you stay onsite, you can book your FPs earlier.

The ancillary stuff is the rides -- For now, they haven't price differentiated this ancillary item. But they have differentiated just about everything else.

Let's compare the "in park" experience of a guest who paid extra, versus a guest who paid nothing extra:

The "extra" guest enters the Magic Kingdom at 8:00 a.m., for EMH. Enjoying a half-empty park.
The "base" guest walks in at 9:00, and finds the EMH people are already on line, in front of them.
At 10am, the "extra" guest gets on the Mine Coaster, with the FP that was booked 60 days out.
The "base" guest stands in line for 60 minutes to ride the Mine Coaster, because there were no FPs available 30 days out.
The "extra" guest then goes to lunch at Cinderella's Royal Table, where the Princesses come to them. No need to wait on lines to meet them.
The "base" guest eats their brown bag lunch (said no extra spending), and then they get in 20-40 minute lines to meet the Princesses.
The "extra" guest, seeing the park now getting super crowded, park hops to DHS, on its low crowd day.
The "base" guest, with no park hopper, has to suffer the massive crowd without any other options.
Or assuming they both do hop over to DHS..
The "extra" now has dinner at Brown Derby, and gets a FP for Fantasmic. Can enjoy some rides after dinner, and before the show.. then walk into reserved seating right before show time.
The "base" guest is able to find some bad seats in the way back, and that is still arriving 30 minutes before the show.

As you see -- Even in the "in park" experience can differ dramatically by paying extra. Those are pretty big differences. Very very inconsistent park experiences already.

And these are all in lieu of your proposed offering.....and none of them affect the "base" guests experience. You eating at the character breakfast takes you out of the SB line for the characters, actually improving the "base" guest experience...think on that...

To add, EMH isn't everyday at every park....Why? You know the answer, say it with me....

 

[havoc315]

Like I said, they can expand as much as they want outside of the 9-7 experience. I will have 0 objections to any of these "expansions".

I'll take it a step further, if you want to pay $5 more per ride, you can get a Winnie the Pooh cart that has a pillow on the bottom. Again, no objection from me.

If you want to pay $40, and skip the line, pushing waits for those who didn't pay, I have a BIG objection (so does Disney).

You lump the resorts, dessert parties, firework cruises, in with the theme park experience. Myself (and Disney), do not. That is the key difference in our "positions"

You don't know if Disney has an objection or not. We simply know that they haven't currently tried it. We know Disney has absolutely no objection to giving some people FPs 60 days out, and other people FPs 30 days out. We know that Disney has absolutely no objection to giving people who pay less, less park time.

And Disney DOES lump is all together: They offer lots of packages that do lump it together. You seem to think that the 9-7 experience is some religious holy time... like it is a constitutional right to equality from 9-7.

I'm sorry... I see it as nothing more than your personal preference. You personally prefer that Disney keep its current system in place from 9-7.

But I notice you ignored a rather simple question.......
Which would you prefer:
Disney raised prices for EVERYONE to $500 -- limiting the Magic Kingdom to 20,000 guests per day, and thereby eliminating lines for everyone. OR..
Disney offered a package of $100 that included 2 FPs, but also offered a package for $200, that included 5 FPs.

Of those 2 scenarios, which do you prefer?

 

[dlavender]

You don't know if Disney has an objection or not. We simply know that they haven't currently tried it. We know Disney has absolutely no objection to giving some people FPs 60 days out, and other people FPs 30 days out. We know that Disney has absolutely no objection to giving people who pay less, less park time.

And Disney DOES lump is all together: They offer lots of packages that do lump it together. You seem to think that the 9-7 experience is some religious holy time... like it is a constitutional right to equality from 9-7.

I'm sorry... I see it as nothing more than your personal preference. You personally prefer that Disney keep its current system in place from 9-7.

But I notice you ignored a rather simple question.......
Which would you prefer:
Disney raised prices for EVERYONE to $500 -- limiting the Magic Kingdom to 20,000 guests per day, and thereby eliminating lines for everyone. OR..
Disney offered a package of $100 that included 2 FPs, but also offered a package for $200, that included 5 FPs.

Of those 2 scenarios, which do you prefer?

Of course they offer packages that include all of them, but they also sell a la carte.

Yes, for a theme park, I view 9-7 (for the MK), as a base operational schedule. Would I be upset if they went to a 10-4 schedule? Yes.

No one is talking about the constitution here.....They could close tomorrow without violating any laws....

I would prefer a $100 that included no FP's, and that that would be the only option available....

I would also prefer that I would be independently wealthy and not have to work....or a lifetime free pass for my family. Is that an option?

 

[dlavender]

ou don't know if Disney has an objection or not. We simply know that they haven't currently tried it. We know Disney has absolutely no objection to giving some people FPs 60 days out, and other people FPs 30 days out. We know that Disney has absolutely no objection to giving people who pay less, less park time.

We do kind of know that they have an objection. They have the infrastructure and system running TODAY that would let Deluxe guests ride everything FP style. They haven't implemented it, why? What are they waiting for?

 

[havoc315]

And these are all in lieu of your proposed offering.....and none of them affect the "base" guests experience. You eating at the character breakfast takes you out of the SB line for the characters, actually improving the "base" guest experience...think on that...

To add, EMH isn't everyday at every park....Why? You know the answer, say it with me....

Sure they affect the "base" experience...... It's just an affect that you have already chosen to accept.

Imagine: Day 1: They have 2 locations where people can meet Princesses. Each location has a 15 minute line.
Day 2: They change it... There is now one location where anybody can meet Princesses, with a 30 minute line. And the second location is only for people who paid for a special meal.
We are already on Day 2, and you accept it.. because you haven't considered the option of Day 1 instead.

2 locations -- 1 location for "everyone" and 1 location for "extra payment."

hmmm, so according to your theory, it would be ok if Disney took the Tower of Terror.... made 2 of the elevators "general access" and made the other 2 elevators "for premium payers only"

Anybody can get the "base" experience in the general access line. Of they can pay for the "premium" experience, where only a limited number of tickets are sold to the elevators.

Soarin has 2 theaters currently -- So it would be ok, if 1 of the theaters was "standby".... while the second theater was "reserved purchased seating" -- That would be IDENTICAL to the Princess example.

 

[havoc315]

We do kind of know that they have an objection. They have the infrastructure and system running TODAY that would let Deluxe guests ride everything FP style. They haven't implemented it, why? What are they waiting for?

They also haven't raised ticket prices to $106. Does that mean they have an objection to $106 ticket prices?
They have EMH on Mondays but not on Tuesdays (or whatever), does that mean they have an objection to EMH on Tuesdays?
Do they "object" to letting on site guests book their FPs 61 days in advance and letting off site guests do it 29 days in advance? Is that an objection, of have they simply opted to do 60/30?

There mere fact they haven't yet tried something, doesn't mean they "object" to it. Just means they haven't done it.

 

[dlavender]

Sure they affect the "base" experience...... It's just an affect that you have already chosen to accept.

Imagine: Day 1: They have 2 locations where people can meet Princesses. Each location has a 15 minute line.
Day 2: They change it... There is now one location where anybody can meet Princesses, with a 30 minute line. And the second location is only for people who paid for a special meal.
We are already on Day 2, and you accept it.. because you haven't considered the option of Day 1 instead.

2 locations -- 1 location for "everyone" and 1 location for "extra payment."

hmmm, so according to your theory, it would be ok if Disney took the Tower of Terror.... made 2 of the elevators "general access" and made the other 2 elevators "for premium payers only"

Anybody can get the "base" experience in the general access line. Of they can pay for the "premium" experience, where only a limited number of tickets are sold to the elevators.

Soarin has 2 theaters currently -- So it would be ok, if 1 of the theaters was "standby".... while the second theater was "reserved purchased seating" -- That would be IDENTICAL to the Princess example.

They don't do this, though. Does Cinderella leave the M&G because she needs to visit the people eating lunch? - No

Yes, if they wanted to create "Premium" rides - build two of everything - Go for it. That would take people out of line, improving the base experience, IMO.

 

[havoc315]

Of course they offer packages that include all of them, but they also sell a la carte.

Yes, for a theme park, I view 9-7 (for the MK), as a base operational schedule. Would I be upset if they went to a 10-4 schedule? Yes.

No one is talking about the constitution here.....They could close tomorrow without violating any laws....

I would prefer a $100 that included no FP's, and that that would be the only option available....

I would also prefer that I would be independently wealthy and not have to work....or a lifetime free pass for my family. Is that an option?

Personally, I'd be very upset if the only option was 9-7. Because I like the parks at night, I usually arrive at 6 and stay till 10 or 11.

That wasn't one of the choices I asked about..
$500 for everyone, with everyone getting equal treatment.
Or $100 for basic entry for everyone, but $200 as a price that includes extra FPs.

In other words, I'm wondering which is more important to you: Equal experience for all, (option 1, where it is $500 for everyone), or simply the more affordable option for you personally (option 2).