Why not expand?

[Sjm9911]

I think every business owner would like to sell a Maserati or Ferrari. Riviera is beautiful. Rumor has it that they are having a hard time selling it, even before Covid. Reflections, another high end place, is postponed, maybe even cancelled. The cost and time to build a Riviera has got to be astronomical compared to a high end campground. Sold as a DVC, the upfront money from for each site would be a cash cow. The maintenance fees have got to be sucking them dry on Riviera right now because DVC development still owns most of the building. What are the maintenance fees at the Fort. Campgrounds are virus maintenance friendly. What's the size of the staff needed at a campground as opposed to a hotel.

And then there is the big question. Would a DVC campground sell. Based on emotional response, The Fort does have a completely universal advantage of having almost 50 years of raving fans. It would sell! Riviera has none of that. CC, Poly, BLT, Floridian, BC, all sold out because of raving fans of that particular hotels that were in existence prior to building the DVC. BW and BC had raving fans of Epcot. You can step out of those hotels and be in Epcot, and for that matter you can walk to Hollywood Studios. (I would take the boat there, instead). Riviera doesn't have either a hotel fan base or really easy access to the parks.

Access to the parks with the Golf cart, which I would consider to be fun, would be a the key to the sales. Without it it would be a harder sell.

Building a hotel is cheaper then you think. And the income is more then worth it or they wouldent be buding as many. . Additionally the 250 a room i put out there would be in the lower end of disney, not the higher echelon your comparing it to.
With a campground you still have to run the expensive sewer lines , electeical grid etc. Same as for a hotel, and thats one of the biggist money parts in building. So the hotel has walls and a bit more ellectric, no problem. Its above grade and can be done on the cheap. If you are in a hotel you aee much more likely to eat out at disney restaurants. Campers are more apt to make one meal a day in there camper if not more. Less money for the mouse. You still have cleaning with the campground, i will say its not the same as a hotel but is probably not that many more man hours to clean a hotel. And the time saved by not traveling might even make up for the extra cleaning. They wash each pad before every guest arrives, and walk the site and pick up garabage. Just because there might be a nich for it dosen't make it profitable for disney. If campgrounds were more profitable, or even close to what the hotels bring in they would have expanded allready.

 

[nomorethan8]

Disney really doesn't build hotels anymore. They build timeshares. Gran Destino basically the exception. But I think that whole Coronado/Gran Destino complex is geared more toward conventions. Coronado is a nice place. Nice Rooms. Something was missing. I think they hope that Gran Destino solves that issue.

But they would rather sell 50 years of a rooms occupancy up front, and have that person pay for the maintenance of the space every year. Disney DVC rooms are filled all year round. DVC has virtually no vacancy issues as you would have with a hotel, during a slow time of the year.

To be able to sell, a DVC campground would need to be HIGH END, glamping, with roots to the Fort, and an enjoyable transportation to access to a park. With @bama_ed proposal with the property across the street to the Fort you can have that. You can have that with proposed and postponed Reflections Assisted Living Home property. Now I digress.

 

[nomorethan8]

I want my hotel on park place, not baltic ave.

When I played Monopoly, Baltic Ave was considered Section 8 housing. Disney has never ever built Section 8 housing.

 

[bama_ed]

To be able to sell, a DVC campground would need to be HIGH END, glamping, with roots to the Fort, and an enjoyable transportation to access to a park. With @bama_ed proposal with the property across the street to the Fort you can have that. You can have that with proposed and postponed Reflections Assisted Living Home property. Now I digress.

 

[StormyCA]

So, interestingly enough I 'floated' the idea of a DVC RV Resort to nDH. You could have knocked me down with a feather when he said IF Disney included other (non-Disney property) RV resorts in 'the right' locations it's something he 'might be interested in'. Since the likelihood of them actually doing this is nil, I can only think that the Universe is torturing me.

 

[nomorethan8]

Let me at em!

 

[rideswithchrist]

I found it ironic that they had a DVC person at the Fort, but when she was pressed, she really said that the cost of DVC points were more than the campsite, so there was no savings. (You can rent sites with DVC points if you own.)We looked but the lowest buy-in was still so much more than we would spend on the campsite paid out of pocket.

BUT if they expanded a DVC level site with driving/walking access to Epcot, they would book out and sell out ahead of time for sure.

 

[tinkerdorabelle]

I would love to see an expansion, tho not necessarily a timeshare type or at least we probably won't do one, but maybe it will open up more sites as many regulars would buy into it? Seems camping is going to become even more popular with Covid even when this hopefully ends. I miss the Fort, I won't go back until Covid ends tho, but really miss it.

PS: I will say I am very impressed by some of your well thought out ideas on how to go about it. Could anyone give me an idea of how much you would think this might cost? Just curious. I know it would just be a guess just wondering.

 

[nomorethan8]

Last I heard, Riviera is selling a point for $175ish after incentives. I would imagine they sell a point for around the same price. The real question is how many points it would cost to use a site. The 9 points to stay at a standard campsite using DVC points is universally considered not a good use of points. But you can do it, when the points are available for the Fort. But if you elevate the experience at the site at DVC resort who knows. I would love to know how long those points, allocated to the Fort, last before being used by a current DVC owner. DVC would know better than us.

 

[Wendysofftoneverland]

But would you still be required to buy a minimum of 100 points for a campground dvc membership?

 

[nomorethan8]

I believe its a 150 or 160 point minimum for other DVC resorts unless your just adding on to your existing points.

 

[StormyCA]

I don't know enough (ie diddly-squat) about points and values and DVC. But it sure would be fun to know how much they'd charge to buy in to the DVC with the campground as your 'home resort'. The cost of your points for an RV site might be less than points for the other DVC 'bricks and mortar' properties, but you probably wouldn't get much 'bang for your points' trying to use them at the other resorts.

 

[nomorethan8]

'bang for your points' trying to use them at the other resorts

I would think the points would be close to what they sell for now at Riviera. How many points per night it would cost to get a site, I think would be the determining factor, if there was value in doing it. There are so many variables. I too, wish I knew their formula. For those Floridians who would go to the Fort 5 or 6 times a year, might see value in it. And occasionally break it up with a stay at a Brick and Mortar stay.

As a footnote, Riviera has this clause that says if you buy it as a Riviera as your Home Resort, you can use those points at any other DVC resort. But if you sell those points, it can only be used at Riviera in the future and not at any other resort, which sucks for the original buyer of those points , because the value of those points will be worth far less when they try to sell them. It destroys the whole reason of owning DVC. You lose freedom and value, the 2 hallmarks of the whole program, when you try to sell Riviera points. In theory, of course.

And, Riviera might sell out tomorrow and I look like a total idiot!

 

[StormyCA]

I would think the points would be close to what they sell for now at Riviera. How many points per night it would cost to get a site, I think would be the determining factor, if there was value in doing it. There are so many variables. I too, wish I knew their formula. For those Floridians who would go to the Fort 5 or 6 times a year, might see value in it. And occasionally break it up with a stay at a Brick and Mortar stay.

As a footnote, Riviera has this clause that says if you buy it as a Riviera as your Home Resort, you can use those points at any other DVC resort. But if you sell those points, it can only be used at Riviera in the future and not at any other resort, which sucks for the original buyer of those points , because the value of those points will be worth far less when they try to sell them. It destroys the whole reason of owning DVC. You lose freedom and value, the 2 hallmarks of the whole program, when you try to sell Riviera points. In theory, of course.

And, Riviera might sell out tomorrow and I look like a total idiot!

That really is a 'downgrade'! Seems to me then that the 'buy in' at Riviera should be less since it really has less value due to that restriction, but I expect Disney doesn't care about resale value. Wonder if they'll do the same thing at any future DVCs. Does that restriction apply if you resell through Disney (if that's even a thing) or only if you sell on the 'private market'?

There's always a market for DVC I suppose, so it wouldn't surprise me if Riviera sells out once if the pandemic gets over. But then again, there also may be DVC owners who need to 'dump' their ownership due to the pandemic affecting their income/investments so there may well be a 'glut' on the market.

 

[nomorethan8]

There's always a market for DVC I suppose, so it wouldn't surprise me if Riviera sells out once if the pandemic gets over. But then again, there also may be DVC owners who need to 'dump' their ownership due to the pandemic affecting their income/investments so there may well be a 'glut' on the market.

We will see how fast it sells out. It actually is making other DVC resale properties very popular. If you go to the different resale websites, it seems like people are buying up the other properties. And according to 1 blog I read, Disney has not been exercising their Right of First Refusal for months now. Probably to preserve cash.

Personally, I think they should fix the Riviera policy. If you have the same policy at a Fort like DVC, it would be a "negative" for sure.

Expand the Fort! Some Way, Some How!

 

[gatour]

That really is a 'downgrade'! Seems to me then that the 'buy in' at Riviera should be less since it really has less value due to that restriction, but I expect Disney doesn't care about resale value. Wonder if they'll do the same thing at any future DVCs. Does that restriction apply if you resell through Disney (if that's even a thing) or only if you sell on the 'private market'?

There's always a market for DVC I suppose, so it wouldn't surprise me if Riviera sells out once if the pandemic gets over. But then again, there also may be DVC owners who need to 'dump' their ownership due to the pandemic affecting their income/investments so there may well be a 'glut' on the market.

As nomorethan8 said, from my understanding Disney does have a right of first refusal if you want to sell your ownership stake as opposed to "renting" out points. Really doesn't depend on the market.

Let's say you own 500 points/yea and can use them for the next 40 years. You can sell them to another party (similar to selling a house) at whatever price you and the buyer agree to. However Disney can match that price and buy the contract. In either case you will be free and and clear of the ownership and the obligations (i.e. payment of yearly maintenance costs, etc).

Who knows what would happen if current owner's "dump" their points and how Disney would exercise their right of first refusal.

 

[StormyCA]

Who knows what would happen if current owner's "dump" their points and how Disney would exercise their right of first refusal.

In the current (Covid) financial climate I think Disney shareholders might not be super happy to see profits drop (even further) because Disney has decided to put out the cash to buy up a bunch of DVC contracts. I'm sure Disney's not going to post 2020 as a great profit year as it is.

But who knows? The world of Disney-level corporate finance is WAAAYYYY over my head! It may be better in the (very) long run for Disney to 'buy up' the contracts now and thus be able to set the market price themselves when times are better, rather than let a bunch of 'private' sales determine the market.

 

[nomorethan8]

Just another quick thought. You can open a DVC loop on a very small scale very easily, for a limited cost build, just to see how it goes. You can see how it sells, and see how it is utilized by other DVC owners. It could take small footprint and prove out a theory, that the stepchild Fort has far more value that they might think.

 

[SteveH]

Who knows what would happen if current owner's "dump" their points and how Disney would exercise their right of first refusal.

So far, at least as of the last episode of the DVC show I heard they said the last buy back from Disney was back in March.

 

[nomorethan8]

I heard they said the last buy back from Disney was back in March

And it looks like the prices have held up really good in spite of the fact that Disney is not in there to prop up prices.