Why no love for passholders on rates?

[NewEnglandDisney]

YIKES!..lol.

Hadda drag this "quote" out...
I never said Disney screwed me...lmao.. I said "I don't feel like I am being scewed by Disney... I just don't feel like I am being coddled anymore.... and I liked that feeling.

My apologies for mis-quoting.

I was not complaining about any 'rights' I felt I had being an AP holder. I was expressing disappointment in changes, when I had become accustomed to different extras over the years. And, my decision based on my family's preferences and needs, not to purchase AP passes in the future if the changes continue.
Disney certainly has the right to take advantage of the 'fine print'. And I have to right to choose to something differently because of that decision.
I can, and will go elsewhere.. but not because I'm angry, but because it's not worth it to me... and I have other opportunites.

And this is exactly why I posted. Of course you should make whatever choice works for your family. If WDW doesn't work for you any more, then life goes on. It seems you have an overall opinion that WDW doesn't do as much for you as it did, and if you feel that way it's not just your right, but some would say your duty to show them with your wallet.

The reason I use the term "unrealistic expectations" is because the expectations people had didn't materialize. If they did, we wouldn't be having this discussion. It's good for people to know that Disney discounts based on availability, not good-will (just like any business, thankfully, or we wouldn't be seeing $100+ million dollar attractions like Everest).

If you really look at the trends, the last two years this season has been so adversely affected by weather that yes, the discounts have been unusually large. Katrina was broadcast around the world, and in the grand scheme of things it wasn't terribly far from WDW. Seeing people on rooftops scared a lot of people from traveling during this season. There were also major storms the year before, though not to that level of disaster.

Travel is way, way up this year in the reigon (in spite of the rising fuel costs). Maybe it won't be next year, and new discounts will come out. It's just not worth gambling on them, as the sad stories at the start of this thread attest.

This is why this board exists...to share and inform. Now people who ask daily "gee, should I get an AP and hope that super-duper cheap rates come out" can see it doesn't always happen and can make an informed decision on if the gamble is worth it to them or not.

 

[NewEnglandDisney]

My goodness...as I read this thread it makes me think of Bicker's great essay on the Entitlement Mentality so prevalent in society today.

Disney does consider Annual Passholders as special by giving them the ability to enjoy 365 (366 in a leap year) days of admission to their theme parks during normal park operating hours. If a passholder takes advantage of this every day of the year, their per day park admission is less than $1.25/day. Now of course only local FL residents could visit the parks every day of the year, but even if you only get to visit the parks for 30 days out of the year they still get a bargain price of under $15/day.

Those people who think that Disney wasn't giving increased discounts over the past few years to fill rooms are living in Fantasyland where businesses run on good wishes and happy thoughts. In the real world, even a place devoted to making magic still needs to operate with sound business principles. And that means that if you can sell hotel rooms at their regular prices, it is just foolish to offer them at a discount.

I also read one post that said something like "it doesn't cost Disney anything for you to enter the parks" as a way to justify his feeling of entitlement to AP discounts. Um...hello...for you to walk into the park, Disney must hire 3rd shift workers to clean the park so it sparkles for opening in the morning, they must hire people to work the turnstiles that you must pass through to enter the park, they must hire people to operate the attractions and work in the restaurants and shops so you'll have something to do after you go through those turnstiles. Trust me, those CMs are not working at WDW for free. Oh, and they also need to pay the power company to provide electricity, the water company for the water and the waste company to dispose of your trash. So in fact, it does cost Disney quite a bit for you to walk into the parks and the cost of your AP does go toward those costs which allow you to enjoy the parks.

I'm sorry that you don't see the value in your annual pass based on its intended purpose. I'm sorry that perks that you have begun to see yourself as being entitled to are not as significant as they have been in the past. I'm sorry that you feel that Disney doesn't value your investment as a passholder. I respectfully disagree with you about all of these things, not because I view Disney as never doing anything wrong, but rather because I try to see things from the business perspective even though it doesn't always agree with my consumer perpective.

LOL, actually it already is 366 days a year...on leap year it actually jumps to 367. An AP is good through the end of the anniversary date, so if you buy one on September 1, 2006 it would be good until September 1, 2007 (meaning you get Sept. 1 twice).



Other than that, spot on...I love the Disney magic, more than I can say, but understanding the business aspect doesn't take that away from me. I've been to other vacation destinations; on it's worst day, WDW is more magical than the most magical day just about everywhere else. I'm glad they make money, 'cause I like new rides.

The truth of the matter is, a Disney vacation is actually cheaper today than it was a few years ago for the average guest because of MYW. A 7-day ticket used to be $370 because you had to get the waterparks, etc. Now you can get the same ticket as low as $220 depending on what options you need. People forget so quickly (this was especially apparent when the uproar over the few dollars increase in ticket prices.)

NED

 

[speedyf]

Wow....heated debate....

It's funny how everyone can argue for Disney being a company and how they are obligated to raise prices to raise profits for their shareholders.....but, when the oil companies release their profits...everyone screams about how they are milking the public and how they should lower the price of gas for "goodwill". Anyway...different discussion for another day.

We purchased our AP this year because I planned 3 trips...June 06, Dec 06, and then May 07. Of course, I'd like to see more of a discount...but, I guess things are good for Disney. No problem.

The thing that upsets me the most is that Disney decided to stick it to the poor value customers by adding in an extra "season" called the summer season as an excuse to raise the rack rate on "value" rooms to $109 per night. Doesn't seem like a value any more.

Again...no problem. We stayed at Pop in June 06 on an AP rate. We are staying at POFQ on an AP rate of $99 per night in Dec 06. In May 07, we will stay off site. I will not not not...pay over $100 per night for a "value" room. It's just ridiculous.

So...I do understand both sides. It's a business and Disney is out to make a profit....but, AP holders have been treated well in the past and it seems they are being treated worse and worse as business gets better and better for Disney.

Nothing I can do about it. If it gets too expensive to stay at Disney, I'll stay at Amerisuites for $39 per night via Priceline. Then, I'll use my "free" AP to go to Disney and enjoy myself.....and turn around and drive off property to spend my money eating and sleeping somewhere else.

Again...no problem.

Speed

 

[BlindTyldak]

Wow....heated debate....

It's funny how everyone can argue for Disney being a company and how they are obligated to raise prices to raise profits for their shareholders.....but, when the oil companies release their profits...everyone screams about how they are milking the public and how they should lower the price of gas for "goodwill". Anyway...different discussion for another day.

People don't lose their jobs or risk not being able to feed their family or keep them warm if they can't afford to go to Disney.

Anywhoo . . . . .

 

[BroadwayGirl]

Universal, Sea World/Busch Gardens are much more AP holder friendly. WDW is just going through the motions anymore.

The parks you mention are more passholder friendly because they are essentially 1 or 2 day parks rather than weeklong vacation destination. If you live in the central FL area, then you know that business at Universal was down something like 8% last year. These parks have some great things to offer, but with attendance down, they need to work harder to bring people through the gates and that includes being "much more AP holder friendly." And frankly, as a former passholder for Universal, I let my pass expire without renewal in May because I just didn't feel like I got my money's worth and there were no amazing passholder offers to make me feel "special."

 

[Anc96]

My goodness...as I read this thread it makes me think of Bicker's great essay on the Entitlement Mentality so prevalent in society today.

Disney does consider Annual Passholders as special by giving them the ability to enjoy 365 (366 in a leap year) days of admission to their theme parks during normal park operating hours. If a passholder takes advantage of this every day of the year, their per day park admission is less than $1.25/day. Now of course only local FL residents could visit the parks every day of the year, but even if you only get to visit the parks for 30 days out of the year they still get a bargain price of under $15/day.

Those people who think that Disney wasn't giving increased discounts over the past few years to fill rooms are living in Fantasyland where businesses run on good wishes and happy thoughts. In the real world, even a place devoted to making magic still needs to operate with sound business principles. And that means that if you can sell hotel rooms at their regular prices, it is just foolish to offer them at a discount.

I also read one post that said something like "it doesn't cost Disney anything for you to enter the parks" as a way to justify his feeling of entitlement to AP discounts. Um...hello...for you to walk into the park, Disney must hire 3rd shift workers to clean the park so it sparkles for opening in the morning, they must hire people to work the turnstiles that you must pass through to enter the park, they must hire people to operate the attractions and work in the restaurants and shops so you'll have something to do after you go through those turnstiles. Trust me, those CMs are not working at WDW for free. Oh, and they also need to pay the power company to provide electricity, the water company for the water and the waste company to dispose of your trash. So in fact, it does cost Disney quite a bit for you to walk into the parks and the cost of your AP does go toward those costs which allow you to enjoy the parks.

I'm sorry that you don't see the value in your annual pass based on its intended purpose. I'm sorry that perks that you have begun to see yourself as being entitled to are not as significant as they have been in the past. I'm sorry that you feel that Disney doesn't value your investment as a passholder. I respectfully disagree with you about all of these things, not because I view Disney as never doing anything wrong, but rather because I try to see things from the business perspective even though it doesn't always agree with my consumer perpective.

First.. let me say I like the quote in your signature.. and the double meaning. To me it's very meaningful... and I'm sure to others.

Now, based on this one line "Not because I view Disney as never doing anything wrong" which is a comment I made (somewhat sarcastically.. not nice and I appologize)... I am assuming you are directing your post to me.

I am completely confused about your post. How could you read the post directly above yours and come to those conclusions about me? Sigh.
It seems to me that you and others are saying.. "yes, Disney is changing, you don't like it, and you are being unreasonable because you want to make your own changes". I am unreasonable and don't understand about "business perspective" because I don't want to buy AP's anymore without the benefits of the extra perks? Hmmm.. interesting view.

Then again, you may not be directing your post at me at all... just taking pieces from posts you read. If so, then I appologize to you.

I guess I'm done with this thread... I think I stated very well what I felt. And the point that it's my feelings and my decisions based on what is right for me. So I have no more to add to this thread.

I appreciate everyone who "listened" and for those who got what I said.

Goodnight all

 

[BroadwayGirl]

First.. let me say I like the quote in your signature.. and the double meaning. To me it's very meaningful... and I'm sure to others.

Now, based on this one line "Not because I view Disney as never doing anything wrong" which is a comment I made (somewhat sarcastically.. not nice and I appologize)... I am assuming you are directing your post to me.

I am completely confused about your post. How could you read the post directly above yours and come to those conclusions about me? Sigh.
It seems to me that you and others are saying.. "yes, Disney is changing, you don't like it, and you are being unreasonable because you want to make your own changes". I am unreasonable and don't understand about "business perspective" because I don't want to buy AP's anymore without the benefits of the extra perks? Hmmm.. interesting view.

Then again, you may not be directing your post at me at all... just taking pieces from posts you read. If so, then I appologize to you.

I guess I'm done with this thread... I think I stated very well what I felt. And the point that it's my feelings and my decisions based on what is right for me. So I have no more to add to this thread.

I appreciate everyone who "listened" and for those who got what I said.

Goodnight all

Anc96,
Just wanted to say that while I may have picked a bit from some of your posts (your comment about the Disney can do no wrong people), my post was intended as a general response to posts from various people throughout the thread.

 

[Amity 3]

The parks you mention are more passholder friendly because they are essentially 1 or 2 day parks rather than weeklong vacation destination. If you live in the central FL area, then you know that business at Universal was down something like 8% last year. These parks have some great things to offer, but with attendance down, they need to work harder to bring people through the gates and that includes being "much more AP holder friendly." And frankly, as a former passholder for Universal, I let my pass expire without renewal in May because I just didn't feel like I got my money's worth and there were no amazing passholder offers to make me feel "special."

the same Universal AP discounts have been in place for years now. they didn't trot them out as a reaction to the decline in attendance last year. (and there's a pretty complicated equation as to the 8% drop).

no amazing passholder offers? a $99.00 renewal rate? I highly doubt you were ever a Universal passholder. the discounts we receive more than pay for the price of the passes each year.

 

[speedyf]

People don't lose their jobs or risk not being able to feed their family or keep them warm if they can't afford to go to Disney.

Anywhoo . . . . .

Maybe Wal-Mart (also making billions of dollars in profits) should lower the price on food and clothing for us as well.

Sorry...didn't want to hijack this thread and turn it into a oil companies vs Disney debate. My last post on the subject.....continue on with your regular programming.....

Speed

 

[BroadwayGirl]

the same Universal AP discounts have been in place for years now. they didn't trot them out as a reaction to the decline in attendance last year. (and there's a pretty complicated equation as to the 8% drop).

no amazing passholder offers? a $99.00 renewal rate? I highly doubt you were ever a Universal passholder. the discounts we receive more than pay for the price of the passes each year.

You seem to be a big Universal fan given your username and are obviously very passionate about Universal.

I agree that the same Universal AP discounts have been in place for years now because Universal knows they are not yet a true DESTINATION but still a 1 or 2 day theme park in conjunction with a longer Orlando vacation for most visitors. They NEED to cultivate passholders, especially local ones, because during the slower seasons of the year they would be lost without them. I was a passholder with Universal x4 years and while I enjoyed my visits in the past, the truth is that even at $99 for renewal, it was not worth the money for me. Just as with a Disney AP, the value in a Universal AP exists based on your use for Theme Park Attendance. Frankly, despite the fact that Universal is closer to my home and my workplace, I was not visiting often enough to make a $99 renewal rate worthwhile. As far as the amazing offers I mentioned I was referring to extra passholder perks like those described in their passholder newsletter. Of course, one needs to actually receive the newsletters before the offers expire in order for them to be of any use at all.

Don't get me wrong, I think Universal has some great attractions and I enjoyed visiting when I was a passholder but I believe you are kidding yourself if you think they are more passholder friendly because of any other reason than sheer necessity.

 

[NewEnglandDisney]

Don't get me wrong, I think Universal has some great attractions and I enjoyed visiting when I was a passholder but I believe you are kidding yourself if you think they are more passholder friendly because of any other reason than sheer necessity.

Although I love Universal as well (just don't go anymore since they never add new attractions; nothing new at IOA practically since it opened, much less anything big), you do have to wonder when an AP is cheaper than some of the multi-day tickets.

NED

 

[Cinders Mum]

my AP expires mid September and I am not renewing it..... what will I miss? If I am honest only my DDE card !

But the saving I make on rooms on the AP cannot justify the extra I pay for a PAP compared to the 21 day ultimate ticket available to us ....... it's a no brainer ....

sad but true, and if the TA rates are reduced then I shall sit and wait and see for free dining ........ so my booking habits will change but I cannot say I won't be back, I love that mouse too much for that.

Val
xx

 

[Sinclare]

Wow, posted before I left work yesterday and didn't realize it would turn into this....

One thing that really bothers me in this thread is the "Disney is a company to make money and they have no obligation to treat AP holders good in any way, and as a matter of fact you should feel privilidged that they grace you with basics frame of mind"

You know what, you're right....they don't have any obligation. Of course, for years now they have SOLD the AP to people and PUSHED the premise that you will get SPECIAL treatment as an AP HOLDER. They did create this "entitlement mentality" and now they don't want to live up to it. Sure I know about the "fine print" and sure they can go ahead and take away all benefits, it's their right. They however, will end up being the worse for it. My 3 weeks a year in WDW (and money) will be spent elsewhere. And if they don't miss it this year then that's fine.

Where the whole "it's just business" "mentality" looses all ground however is when your business gets bad. People who get hooked on certain places (wheter it be the Grand Canyon, Smoky Mountains, or WDW) go back regularly to get their fix. If they are denied their "fix" for long enough and find a different fix then thats where they will go back to. Sooner or later (and with gas prices going way way up it will be sooner) Disney is going to wish they had those addicted people wanting their fix back. And they lost them for what? A $20 a night cut on a value resort? Taking a away a few benefits that make your loyal customers feel special?

Let's face it, we're complusive and we like it that way. The "economics" argument? I just don't buy it. It's just bad business to make a quick buck over keeping longterm loyal customers (and it's especially bad when you're so greedy that you loose long term addicted customers). I do however see it everyday as I work around those kinds of people... Lets jack the customers if we can make the money, it doesn't matter to me if we loose them long term because all I really care about is getting my yearly XXX bonus for making it look like we increased our profits; heck I'll be gone and sitting on a beach in a couple years when this company fails but in the mean time I'm going to suck it for all it's worth.

 

[mickeyfan2]

This new system is just trying to milk every last dime from passholders. After seeing the $59 a night passholder rate listing I (on dis near the dates for October) I called to book. I guess I was just overly excited and didn't see the next half of the line that said from 11/26 to 12-4. What really supprised me though was that with this "Passholder" "SPECIAL CODE" they quoted me $79 a night at a value plus $10 for an extra adult.

It used to be that being a passholder meant something, now it's not worth squat. You can get the same rate with a AAA card. I mean $79 a night as a "special rate" is just insulting. Considering the price for the PAP and as much time/money as I spend there they would cut PH's a break like they used to.

Now I know you're supposed to just "reserve" your room at price and "hope" they knock the price down if they just "decide" to drop rates; yea right. With gas prices the way they are and their blood sucking new pass holder "benefits" I'm afraid I'm going to have to break our tradition of going to WDW for vacations.

I know this is a bit of a rant and that some people actually like the new system but I'm not one of them. I'm going to miss you Mickey but you can only suck so much money out of me

Sorry I don't agree at all. They are giving you exactly what they always did with a AP 365 days of park entrance, park hopping and water parks, if a PAP. The room discounts were always an extra but never a guarantee.

 

[mickeyfan2]

Of course, for years now they have SOLD the AP to people and PUSHED the premise that you will get SPECIAL treatment as an AP HOLDER. They did create this "entitlement mentality" and now they don't want to live up to it. Sure I know about the "fine print" and sure they can go ahead and take away all benefits, it's their right. They however, will end up being the worse for it. My 3 weeks a year in WDW (and money) will be spent elsewhere. And if they don't miss it this year then that's fine.

They NEVER SOLD the AP as anything but what it was. You read too much into the freebies and now want them and more. You are a customer and can vacation where you want. If this NEW system does not work for you then look elsewhere. We got our latest APs for the last vacation. We stayed 10 nights, will be staying in 12 nights soon and 10+ nights before they expire. So we get over a month of park entrances for that price. Works out to a little over $10/day. That is the deal!

 

[PamNC]

But, I know what you're saying. It's getting so crazy expensive. We didn't renew our AP's this year. In hindsight, I guess we should have since the new price is $462.00! That's crazy. I remember when the AP's paid for themselves in 8 days. No longer the case. Then, top that off with the fact that discounts aren't what they use to be. I remember going to the Polynesian during value season for $199 AP rate. Then, regular season for $229.00. Right now, the regular season discount rate is $289. I'm talking Garden View of course.

We honeymooned at Disney in 1994. And, we've gone every year since - some years 2 and 3 times. It has such sentimental value to us on top of it being a fantastic vacation! But, we have to start thinking about more trips to other destinations. We do go to the gulf coast of Florida in addition to Disney, but we make that a side trip and Disney our main trip. We could go to Siesta Key, FL - rent a condo for $795 for the entire week. A nice, gulf front condo. No ticket media to purchase. Meal costs aren't crazy expensive...we could go to this lovely place (and have done so) for less than $2,000.00. For what a Disney trip costs, we could almost do Hawaii which is our dream.

But, it makes me sad. Disney is our spot. Our special happy place!

Here's the good news - the Swan and Dolphin offer decent discounts. And, you don't have to have AP's. We've stayed there twice and love it...I can't say they are my favorite resort there on property, but it's high up on the list. We'll probably start staying there a lot more. We typically go on average 2x a year. Sometimes 2 trips plus one small long weekend trip. For the longer trip, we stay at one of our favorite Disney-owned resorts..the Polynesian, YC, BC usually. We've also stayed at GF, WL and OKW. Then, for a shorter trip we stay at the Swan or Dolphin. It's getting to the point where that is all we can afford - the Swan or Dolphin. Which isn't a bad thing!

All this said, what we're planning on doing is cutting our trips down to once a year, which means not buying AP's. Then eventually, we may wean off to once every other year. I don't know.

I'm sad.

PamNC

 

[CarolA]

Let me guess....

SOME of you whining about the discounts are the SAME ones making a SCENE at the park by telling the CMs YOU DESERVE SPECIAL TREATEMENT BECAUSE YOU OWN AN AP!!!! (Ever hear CM stories, do you know what they think of AP holders??? It's NOT pretty and this sense of "Disney should treat me better" is why.... )

I have had an AP for years, the ONLY "special" treatment I have seen "advertised" are things like the sneak previews and the opportunity to spend money on merchandise (LOL!) EVERYTHING else is available to EVERYONE in the parks. Even Discounts on rooms are offered to "other" groups (FL Residents, General Public, Disney Visa cardholders etc)

If you walk around Disney acting like some of you are on here with your sense of "I should be treated BETTER then others" no wonder you don't feel the magic....

 

[mickeyfan2]

Wow....heated debate....

It's funny how everyone can argue for Disney being a company and how they are obligated to raise prices to raise profits for their shareholders.....but, when the oil companies release their profits...everyone screams about how they are milking the public and how they should lower the price of gas for "goodwill". Anyway...different discussion for another day.

You will never see me argue about the gas company. I understand economics, free markets and supply vs. demand. So I just pay for my gas and drive.

 

[PamNC]

although I've already posted on the subject. This is about AP's only being for admission media. Obviously that is the case, but I'm sorry - one of the reasons we buy AP's is for the discounts. I know they don't OWE me a discount, but I've gotten discounts now for years...so it is very very dissappointing when they are meager as they are. Or, when they don't come at all.

AND, a lot of you live very close to Disney. Like, a few hours drive or less. If that were the case with us, we would be able to go enough times to justify the AP...room discounts or not. We aren't that far away - just a 9 hour drive. But, we can't go 3 or 4 times a year. It use to be that the AP paid for itself rather quickly. Now, get this scenario.

We typically go to Disney at least 14 nights a year, so I'll use that as the example. A 7 day park-hopper (bought on-line here) is $261 + tax. So, for two of those little babies it would be $522.00.

2 AP's now cost us $924. Plus tax. I'm not including tax in these examples.

That saves us only $120. It use to pay for itself like on day 8.

Again, if I lived closer and could go more often, I would feel better about the whole "AP's are for admission media only" argument.

PamNC

 

[Marie17]

it's typical of the WDW attitude lately, charge full price and pull any existing benefits. the only thing you can count on as a WDW AP holder anymore is free parking and AP previews. I haven't received a Mickey Monitor in a year.

Ain't that the truth. I am starting to wonder when they are going to get rid of the free parking. I keep thinking that one day it will be a $ discount off full price. Same thing here with the Mickey Monitor when we were AP holders - only got 1. Let our AP lapse.

I still think that gas, housing equity, and the economy ARE going to affect Disney - but I think it will be sometime later this year or early next. That's why I think some codes were released - even though it will be the year of magical dreams come true at Disney (that new promotion) that everyone said was going to be so "wonderful" - still need to see that really happen.