Why do we want the best test scores?

[NHdisneylover]

So, I just saw the commercial that shows how the US is 14th in math and science test scores (worldwide) and we need to get better at that and it got me thinking. . .

WHY do we need or want to be "the best" at this?

Has the goal of upping those scores, which seems (to me, anyway) to have fueled teaching to tests and adding a lot of additional high school requirements (ie--I only needed two years of math in highschool to graduate, now most places require four years), etc actually helped make the US more successful in a global market in your opinion?


It seems to me that it is silly to focus on being the best at this one things (math/science)and that this huge focus on that area is possibly harming us over all by leading to a less well rounded population, with less free time to explore individual interests (which often are our greatest strengths) and greatly increasing stress and anxiety in our populace from a young age.

What do you all think? Is being the best in the world on math and science tests truly a worthwhile goal. Why or why not?

 

[cornflake]

So, I just saw the commercial that shows how the US is 14th in math and science test scores (worldwide) and we need to get better at that and it got me thinking. . .

WHY do we need or want to be "the best" at this?

Has the goal of upping those scores, which seems (to me, anyway) to have fueled teaching to tests and adding a lot of additional high school requirements (ie--I only needed two years of math in highschool to graduate, now most places require four years), etc actually helped make the US more successful in a global market in your opinion?


It seems to me that it is silly to focus on being the best at this one things (math/science)and that this huge focus on that area is possibly harming us over all by leading to a less well rounded population, with less free time to explore individual interests (which often are our greatest strengths) and greatly increasing stress and anxiety in our populace from a young age.

What do you all think? Is being the best in the world on math and science tests truly a worthwhile goal. Why or why not?

I don't think that 'get better' means 'be the best' necessarily, but in general, I think we should absolutely strive for the best-educated populous possible.

Americans, as a whole, are, as proven over and over, woefully undereducated and frightfully ignorant. It's hindering in a huge variety of ways - if we can't produce an educated populous, we're going to need to import people for skilled professions, have more people out of work as technology eliminates more unskilled jobs, not be able to compete as far as innovation, which will put us at an economic and political disadvantage, etc., etc.

Also, we have the money and infrastructure to support it, would that we had the educated people, especially in math and science, which seems all the more reason to produce enough educated people to be able to utilize it for innovation and advancement.

I think requirements should be higher, not lower. I needed three years of math to graduate, and my state basically requires mastery high enough to pass a bunch of actually complex texts to earn a diploma (you can get one without a regents sticker, I *think* but I dunno what it's worth in this state) and that's a good thing, imo.

I mean... what's the upside to having an ill-educated populous?

They can pursue their own interests? I dunno why they can't anyway, though maybe I don't really know what you mean by that. It sounds to me like it'd end up with a whole slew of kids spending time playing video games and thinking they're going to make the NBA or be famous models or sex-tape stars.

 

[PollyannaMom]

What do you all think? Is being the best in the world on math and science tests truly a worthwhile goal. Why or why not?

No, I don't think it is. And I think the reason is that we expect everybody here to beat those scores. In the countries that are scoring the highest, aren't only the students choosing to study higher math and science being tested? There are certainly things that I think everyone needs to leave school knowing, but calculus isn't one of them.

 

[luvmy3]

I don't think that 'get better' means 'be the best' necessarily, but in general, I think we should absolutely strive for the best-educated populous possible.

Americans, as a whole, are, as proven over and over, woefully undereducated and frightfully ignorant. It's hindering in a huge variety of ways - if we can't produce an educated populous, we're going to need to import people for skilled professions, have more people out of work as technology eliminates more unskilled jobs, not be able to compete as far as innovation, which will put us at an economic and political disadvantage, etc., etc.

Also, we have the money and infrastructure to support it, would that we had the educated people, especially in math and science, which seems all the more reason to produce enough educated people to be able to utilize it for innovation and advancement.

I think requirements should be higher, not lower. I needed three years of math to graduate, and my state basically requires mastery high enough to pass a bunch of actually complex texts to earn a diploma (you can get one without a regents sticker, I *think* but I dunno what it's worth in this state) and that's a good thing, imo.

I mean... what's the upside to having an ill-educated populous?

They can pursue their own interests? I dunno why they can't anyway, though maybe I don't really know what you mean by that. It sounds to me like it'd end up with a whole slew of kids spending time playing video games and thinking they're going to make the NBA or be famous models or sex-tape stars.

 

[usd2bmd]

We may be uneducated...but I think that is because there seemed to be one idea...and that is that everyone must go to a four year school and get a four year degree.

We might do better as a whole if we realize that this country is made up of a lot of little pieces that each have strengths and weaknesses. Math is not a strength for everyone and trying to force a "square peg in a round hole" doesn't work. We need to focus on what people are good at and help them reach their potential instead of forcing them to conform to some idea of waht they should be.

 

[NHdisneylover]

No, I don't think it is. And I think the reason is that we expect everybody here to beat those scores. In the countries that are scoring the highest, aren't only the students choosing to study higher math and science being tested? There are certainly things that I think everyone needs to leave school knowing, but calculus isn't one of them.

This is kind of where I am at. Ideally, I would want EVERYBODY to understand a basic level of math that goes far enough that they can realize if they have a true aptitude for it and might want to go into high levels (through algebra one or two, not everyone even needs Trig IMO much less calculus,),everybody to have a decent base level of current world geography and politics/religion (something I think the US is sorely lacking), everyone to have basic mathematical principals(high school physics/chemistry as one combined and biology), basic music and art appreciation, a reasonable level of writing ability and reading comprehension and having read a select few books which shape our culture and nation and a decent basic working knowledge of US and world history.

Right now it seems we have taken away from many things (art, music, social studies, life skills type classes, health education, etc) in order to focus more heavily on those more easily measured goals. I wonder how it truly benefits us as a society to put a lot of effort, time and money into getting pretty much everyone to levels of math and science that used to be only for engineers
And does is actually harm us to put a lot of effort in that one direction if it is expensive without much benefit and possibly causest ruly undue stress for some, etc or keeps others from realizing they have aptitudes in other, more ignored, areas?

Cornflake--I guess by pursuing interests I mean whatever interests someone. There seems to be a LOT more homework and stress to have to get the grades now than there was 25 years ago when I was a teen. I had time for debate club and yearbook and theatre and to read tons of books and to travel and sew etc--more of that time than I see many current teens having(and i had a more demanding school schedule than many of my friends AND worked part time).

I guess, I tend to see anyone who is really worn out at the end of the day migrating towards TV/computers in free time but those who are not (younger people especially) that I know are often more interested in being athletic or reading or learning new skills, etc. Just playing computer games? So sad that this is the view people have of our youth.


I would guess that Bill Gates and Steve Jobs probably spent free time dinking on computers and playing around with them.

I know Henry Ford spent a lot of free time taking apart things and rebuilding them.

The Wright brothers credit their success from having been encouraged as boys to explore everything and to read about every possible topic and get as many views and be as well rounded as possible.

It just seems most of our cultural heroes and most of our successes are not born from someone who struggles to pass a high level math class they have no true aptitude for--but from people who were exposed to a lot and then encouraged to follow and pursue that which they have a natural interest or talent in.

 

[NHdisneylover]

We may be uneducated...but I think that is because there seemed to be one idea...and that is that everyone must go to a four year school and get a four year degree.

We might do better as a whole if we realize that this country is made up of a lot of little pieces that each have strengths and weaknesses. Math is not a strength for everyone and trying to force a "square peg in a round hole" doesn't work. We need to focus on what people are good at and help them reach their potential instead of forcing them to conform to some idea of waht they should be.

You posted this while I was typing and said what I was trying to get at so much more succinctly and better

 

[mhsjax]

I don't think that 'get better' means 'be the best' necessarily, but in general, I think we should absolutely strive for the best-educated populous possible.

Americans, as a whole, are, as proven over and over, woefully undereducated and frightfully ignorant. It's hindering in a huge variety of ways - if we can't produce an educated populous, we're going to need to import people for skilled professions, have more people out of work as technology eliminates more unskilled jobs, not be able to compete as far as innovation, which will put us at an economic and political disadvantage, etc., etc.

Also, we have the money and infrastructure to support it, would that we had the educated people, especially in math and science, which seems all the more reason to produce enough educated people to be able to utilize it for innovation and advancement.

I think requirements should be higher, not lower. I needed three years of math to graduate, and my state basically requires mastery high enough to pass a bunch of actually complex texts to earn a diploma (you can get one without a regents sticker, I *think* but I dunno what it's worth in this state) and that's a good thing, imo.

I mean... what's the upside to having an ill-educated populous?

They can pursue their own interests? I dunno why they can't anyway, though maybe I don't really know what you mean by that. It sounds to me like it'd end up with a whole slew of kids spending time playing video games and thinking they're going to make the NBA or be famous models or sex-tape stars.

Well everything you said made great sense until that last line. I mean really? A kid wants time to pursue outside interests and you think that will lead to all the things you mentioned? Sex tape stars, where in the world did you come up with that?

 

[cornflake]

We may be uneducated...but I think that is because there seemed to be one idea...and that is that everyone must go to a four year school and get a four year degree.

We might do better as a whole if we realize that this country is made up of a lot of little pieces that each have strengths and weaknesses. Math is not a strength for everyone and trying to force a "square peg in a round hole" doesn't work. We need to focus on what people are good at and help them reach their potential instead of forcing them to conform to some idea of waht they should be.

We're talking about elementary and high school students though. No, not everyone is cut out for higher education, though I think most people should at least try it. We also can't afford to have everyone highly educated, as we need janitors and people to fill unskilled positions.

However, I think every student without a disability can and should learn as much basic stuff as possible.

It's not as if the populations of the countries that rank far above ours are made up of all smarter people - people are people. They have plenty of people that don't have aptitude in STEM areas. That doesn't mean they don't educate their kids better than we do - they do.

Ken Burns produced a documentary after seeing a study showing a ridiculous percentage of high school seniors had no idea who fought whom in WWII. That's inexcusable. People cannot do basic, basic math - we don't widely use or understand the metric system, for goodness' sake, kids in surveys have a hard time with decimals and fractions, etc. This isn't about everyone needing to be able to do differential equations.

 

[cornflake]

Well everything you said made great sense until that last line. I mean really? A kid wants time to pursue outside interests and you think that will lead to all the things you mentioned? Sex tape stars, where in the world did you come up with that?

Where did I come up with that? The ratings for the Kardashians and their general popularity, which followed the same for Paris Hilton.

In GB, the sad girls with no ambition or skills want to be WAGs or glamour models. Here, they want to be sex tape stars in order to get reality shows and etc. Same difference.

 

[bethbuchall]

I think that one of the main issues in education now is that non-educators are pushing for certain test results. In the long run, it doesn't matter how the students score on these tests if they are not taught to think, to explore, and to look for solutions. The primary focus is scoring well on the tests which leads to more rote memorization and less exploration of the topics.

Not only is this a disservice to those that will never excel in math/science but could shine in other areas, but it is also a great disservice to the best and brightest in the math and science fields. They are not allowed the freedom to really explore these subjects. They basically get to sit and twiddle their thumbs while we bring everyone else up to the middle ground. The more we push everyone to the same level, the more we lose.

Knowing a number of middle and high school students, I do not think that allowing them to explore different interests will lead to more video game junkies and sex tape stars, especially if we encourage other interests.

 

[mhsjax]

Where did I come up with that? The ratings for the Kardashians and their general popularity, which followed the same for Paris Hilton.

In GB, the sad girls with no ambition or skills want to be WAGs or glamour models. Here, they want to be sex tape stars in order to get reality shows and etc. Same difference.

Doesn't mean anything. I watch all those stupid shows, pure entertainment. So does my DD she things they are complete morons. I guess I just don't know any kids with those ambitions. All my kids friends have very high goals. If a child has no ambition, there isn't any amount of education is going to change that. These girls who want to be on TV are always going to want that.

 

[PollyannaMom]

...Ken Burns produced a documentary after seeing a study showing a ridiculous percentage of high school seniors had no idea who fought whom in WWII. That's inexcusable. People cannot do basic, basic math - we don't widely use or understand the metric system, for goodness' sake, kids in surveys have a hard time with decimals and fractions, etc. This isn't about everyone needing to be able to do differential equations.

But in a way it is. We're rushing too many kids through decimals and fractions, starting before they are ready and moving on to other things before they really understand the basics (and skipping things like history some days entirely!) so that everyone can "stay on pace" and get to those advanced things.

 

[cornflake]

Doesn't mean anything. I watch all those stupid shows, pure entertainment. So does my DD she things they are complete morons. I guess I just don't know any kids with those ambitions. All my kids friends have very high goals. If a child has no ambition, there isn't any amount of education is going to change that. These girls who want to be on TV are always going to want that.

A lot of times education IS what changes it because that's where kids find ambition.

Kids aren't born knowing what options exist, or what they may excel at or enjoy. Even educated, involved parents have blinders in certain areas. A kid with 2 doctors for parents, and a family full of medical professionals is probably going to be sent to good schools, and have education as a goal.

If they're not interested in science though, it may take a poetry-loving teacher to trigger that kid's real ambition and interest.

More importantly, kids with parents who don't focus on edication or goals may not have any academic or career ambitions until some teachers spark an interest or let them know what they might be able to do.

Saying 'well because the kids born to white-collar parents in a well-off suburb, sent to good schools have ambition thus kids who don't have ambition just don't' is bizarrely myopic, imo.

 

[luvmy3]

Right now it seems we have taken away from many things (art, music, social studies, life skills type classes, health education, etc) in order to focus more heavily on those more easily measured goals. I wonder how it truly benefits us as a society to put a lot of effort, time and money into getting pretty much everyone to levels of math and science that used to be only for engineers
And does is actually harm us to put a lot of effort in that one direction if it is expensive without much benefit and possibly causest ruly undue stress for some, etc or keeps others from realizing they have aptitudes in other, more ignored, areas?

These things have not been taken away here, so I'm not sure where you are but its definitely NOT the case here.
I just don't get the connection though that these things can't be pursued by people, unless they are offered in the education system.

 

[NHdisneylover]

But in a way it is. We're rushing too many kids through decimals and fractions, starting before they are ready and moving on to other things before they really understand the basics (and skipping things like history some days entirely!) so that everyone can "stay on pace" and get to those advanced things.

Good point. Now that you say it, I can see that we tend to rush kids through the basics to get to those higher levels and I had not thought about how that can prevent peoplefrom ever really getting the basics down.

A lot of times education IS what changes it because that's where kids find ambition.

Kids aren't born knowing what options exist, or what they may excel at or enjoy. Even educated, involved parents have blinders in certain areas. A kid with 2 doctors for parents, and a family full of medical professionals is probably going to be sent to good schools, and have education as a goal.

If they're not interested in science though, it may take a poetry-loving teacher to trigger that kid's real ambition and interest.

More importantly, kids with parents who don't focus on edication or goals may not have any academic or career ambitions until some teachers spark an interest or let them know what they might be able to do.

Saying 'well because the kids born to white-collar parents in a well-off suburb, sent to good schools have ambition thus kids who don't have ambition just don't' is bizarrely myopic, imo.

But you just described one of the major reasons i think this focus on having the best math and science test scores (or even better than we have now--which is still pretty dang good, really 14th in the WORLD is not shabby) is bad. The focus is so strongly centered on math and science and only those things that there is less and less opportunity for kids to find out about those other things like poetry that they might excel at if exposed to them.

 

[NHdisneylover]

These things have not been taken away here, so I'm not sure where you are but its definitely NOT the case here.
I just don't get the connection though that these things can't be pursued by people, unless they are offered in the education system.

Well,now I am in Germany (which is a totally different system ), but I had kids in schools in NH and MI and have family in schools in TX and CO.

I have seen cuts in the number of hours of recess, gym, art and music in lower grades and a lot fewer credits that high schoolers can use towards those things (since everyone seems to need 4 years of math, science and English now). I am glad to know these things are not being scaled back everywhere


As far as time goes---the middle and high schoolers I know right now (in the US) seem to be averaging 3+hours of homework a night for a good student and more for one who struggles. I can't recall ever having had more than an hour of home work at that age and rarely had that much.
Even in lower grades you see posts all the time here about kids having required half an hour of reading time plus an hour of homework plus required fitness time etc in very low grades.
That makes for longer days than most adult working days by several hours before a single activity or outside interest or simple after school job (common in my generation and I am not yet 40) or household chore is added in.

 

[mhsjax]

Good point. Now that you say it, I can see that we tend to rush kids through the basics to get to those higher levels and I had not thought baout how that can hurt people ever really getting the basics down.

But you just described one of the major reasons i think this focus on having the best math and science test scores (or even better than we have now--which is still pretty dang good, really 14th in the WORLD is not shabby) is bad. The focus is so strongly centered on math and science and only those things that there is less and less opportunity for kids to find out about those other things like poetry that they might excel at if exposed to them.

Exactly, How is beating info into a kids head going to open up any type of interest for them, as Cornflake suggested. These teachers, being pushed so hare to get "great"results, don't have the time to inspire their charges during the day. Too busy getting the job done. My niece loves teaching, loves inspiring kids, this woman was born to teach and parent. She does teach under privileged kids and she has no time to instill a sense of ambition in any of them. She says she is too busy getting her "rats" to run through the maze, that maze is standardized testing. Note: she loves her kids but calls them rats to make a point.

 

[The Mystery Machine]

I would like things to be fair across the board in the public schools. I would be happy with that. They are not "the same". So the "measurement" is stupid to begin with right there.

IF your child wants to take harder classes you let them. Not every school allows kids to take "harder classes" if you "want to" even if you could get an A in the class. Not every school offers those same classes.

Bottom line I think the results are a poor measurement to begin with because there is no freedom to sign up for a class that you are good at and tone down a class that you struggle in.

The HS my dd is at gives her that freedom however not all schools here allow that. In some of the HS's you would have had to been in the "gifted program" in middle school to "be allowed" to take a higher level class.

THAT is what should change.

As far as "being the best", I don't look at it that way. I look at it as we are struggling as a nation and the "test score of 14" is a signal that we need to make changes to compete in a global economy.

Right now all that is happening here in MO is cut, cut, cut.....We are heading in the wrong direction.

 

[kamik86]

I definitely agree that in many ways our "everyone must be equal" is part of the problem. Because lets face it everyone isn't the same and thus everyone isn't equal.

Some are better at math and science, some are better at sports, some are better communicators etc. There are students that show that people will be more successful trying to further improve and refine their strengths then to try to fill their weaknesses. This is often discussed in management classes because if you encourage employees to be better at what they are good at you can create a team to fill in the weaknesses instead of trying to make everyone perfectly well rounded.

Trying to get better test scores is the opposite of that though because to improve test scores you really have to bring the bottom up. Because the kid that got a 50 hitting a 70 does more for the average then getting the kid that had a 95 to be way above grade level (thus knowing things not on the test)

As far as everyone needing calculus. Yeah I'm an engineer and the last time I did a calculus problem was... 2 years ago. And that was for a class not a work function.