Why are toddlers second-class citizens on DCL??

[jodifla]

Ok, this is probably a wildly unpopular post, and I am normally Disney's biggest fan (have been going to WDW for 30 years now, am a DVC member, just got my Disney Visa in the mail, etc. etc. etc....)

BUT

I've spent quite a while looking through toddler threads on this board, and for the life of me, I don't understand why Disney treats non-potty trained children the way it does in regards to the kids clubs.

It seems that if you have an infant, you're all set with Flounder's, and if you have a potty-trained 3+, the Oceaneer's Club is terrific, but if your child is 18 months to 3 1/2 or so, DCL is seriously lacking. Too old to be interested in Flounder's and too young for the Oceaneer's Club.

Since they change diapers in the nursery, it's hard to buy the whole liability issue. What's the difference between changing a 2.5 year's diaper in Flounder's, or a 3-year-old's diaper in the Oceaneer's Club ?

I was particularly disturbed about a thread where a poster claimed that DCL left a child in soiled clothes! It's ridiculous -- young children have accidents, particularly when they are involved with something.

Toddlers also can't go on most excursions, and can't go in the pool (although I know that's a law -- yet somehow, zillions of kids are in swim diapers at all the Disney resorts, and most other hotel pools, for that matter.)

Carnival takes 2 year olds in its kid's clubs, and changes diapers, clothes, etc., so why can't the king of children's vacations, Disney?

 

[CM_Mom]

I think the issue is the kid to counselor ratio. If they had to plan for changing diapers, they couldn't run the club with a 1-15 ratio in the 3-4 area. Flounder's has a much smaller ratio, 1-6 if I remember correctly.

Also, I believe the person who wrote about leaving the child with soiled clothing was inaccurate. I know my DD the CM has mentioned that she's dealt with a "dirty PA" as in dirty Potty Accident. They understand that children have accidents and deal with them accordingly. The problem exists when the "accident" isn't an "accident" but a regular occurance since they aren't staffed to routinely deal with children who aren't potty trained in the Club.

 

[mobetsy]

Staffing ratios are certainly a major issue. Also, w/o knowing the Flounders set up exactly, there may also be a big difference in the physical layout for diaper changing (which I'm betting is done in a distinct area but essentially out in the open) vs. the greater privacy of the bathrooms in the Club. Sad to say, liability is a major issue for any employer these days, and I have gathered that once kids are in the Club (the more private setting as far as toileting), the CM's are not allowed to touch a child in anyway during the process, certainly to avoid any accusations. I watched a CM in the bathroom at CC with a girl I bet was about 3 who was having a meltdown because, in her words, "I poo-pooed" but she didn't want to wipe or pull up her pants. There wasn't a darned thing the counselor could do to help her, and this went on for at least the 5 minutes I was in there. It probably would be great if they had an area with the higher staffing ratio and layout to take 18 mos-3 y.o./not potty trained kids separately from the littlest ones.

BTW, on the pool issue, my almost 6 y.o.'s favorite part of any pool was one of those Mickey ears; I'm not sure I'd jump to the conclusion that that's a sub-standard area for kids!

 

[DVCLady]

Delete

 

[CarolAnnC]

The fares are not just fees for the kids clubs. There are many teens who never step foot in the club but are paying the full price too. In fact, a single parent traveling with only children will pay an adult's fare for the second person in their room, but that child will not be allowed into adult areas either.

The fare is all inclusive. It covers food, amenities, room occupied in both stateroom and lifeboat and the kids clubs are an added feature.

I have to say I have not partaken of every activity available on board ship myself. The spa services all have a fee involved, so the Flounders fee is not so unusual. They rely on CM's to pickup extra hours and fill in there to watch the little ones. Even if they were to include Flounders, there would be restrictions for signup times. The ratios for counselors to infants is much different.

Nevertheless, it is always nice to hear suggestions on what folks would like to see. DCL is a great family vacation and I am sure they are continually looking to make changes that possibly are feasible to them.

 

[crisi]

We elected to wait to cruise until both our kids were potty trained and able to take advantage of the clubs before we even booked. Which meant we waited until my daughter was 4 1/2 (she trained at 3 1/2, but we had a WDW trip planned for a few months from then, so booked the cruise for a good time after she was trained). Deciding I wanted to cruise and waiting did require some patience - but then we adopted - waiting to cruise was nothing like the waiting involved in infertility and adoption.

After dealing with my late potty training daughter, and watching her preschool teachers deal with her and other late trainers, I think DCL does the right thing in not letting non-potty trained kids into the clubs. Pull up changing and cleaning up accidents takes a lot of time. Feces is particularly dangerous on a ship. Older children have much less pleasant poop. And we've cleaned up more than one "explodo-diaper" around our house.

I've never done more than peek inside Flounders - and it seemed to be fine for the tot set, but I have been led to believe it is a little lacking for late trainers (i.e my going on four year old daughter!)

 

[MiaSRN62]

and for the life of me, I don't understand why Disney treats non-potty trained children the way it does in regards to the kids clubs.

A little off-topic of toddlers, but I just had to mention that I feel the same way about older teens. We specifically rushed to book a cruise this year before my teen son turns 18. Like the toddlers, I also feel the age 18-20 are left out in the cold. My son will be 17 on our cruise this year but just barely. He turns 18 a month later. He refused to go with us if he couldn't get into the teen club because he said he would be bored. Even though he turns 18 at the end of this year, he's still in high school. But a high school 18 is not considered worthy enough to join in on the Common Ground activities ? I think Disney needs to come up with something for the 18-20 year old guests also.

 

[MrsPete]

Nothing's right for everyone every time. Perhaps a land-based vacation is better for toddlers. Save the cruise for the elementary school years.

 

[Skuba2]

I took my daughter on carnival when she was 2 1/2 and not potty trained. They will change wet diapers but they will call you back for soiled diapers. Atleast that is what is was when we were there.

Disney also allow my daughter on the last cruise (she was 4 1/2 then) to wear a pull up at night when I brought her in after dinner in her pj's. She is incapable of staying dry at night and I was worried she would fall asleep and have an accident. They said as long as she is self sufficient in the bathroom, that it was ok only at night. I will be asking the same question this time around in two weeks also. She still at 6 1/2 doesn't stay dry at night.

DG

 

[professorandmom]

A neighbor just came back from a carnival cruise and commented she paid by the hour for her kids activities - all three 5-13 ages - guess it added up, especially since they went on a last minute extremely inexpensive cruise
Barbara

 

[jodifla]

That's seems unusual. Carnival advertises its kids clubs as included with the program. It's in every brochure. I also know someone who works there, and he confirms that information. After a certain time in the evening, I believe there is a per-hour fee.

A very good friend leaves Monday on Carnival. I've told her to give me the whole scoop on the program.

 

[ClarabelleCow]

Nothing's right for everyone every time. Perhaps a land-based vacation is better for toddlers. Save the cruise for the elementary school years.

Exactly, there is a saying "You just can"t please everyone". This is the reason we waited until the kids were old enough, my son will be 4 1/2 when we cruise, completely potty trained, so no issues. Disney has set rules and guidelines for a reason, we shouldn't get mad because we don't fit into them.

 

[alwatlers]

When we went on our first Disney cruise my youngest DS was 4 and was not completely potty-trained( I know he was a hard one). He would use the bathroom to pee but not for the bm's.
They told me that they couldn't go in to help wipe because of liability. But they said they would page me if he needed any help and I could come. Luckily I never got paged and I tried to make sure that he used the bathroom before he went to the club. Now he is going to be 8 so we won't have that problem.

 

[mickeyboat]

I did see a counselor help a little girl pull her bathing suit up and down in the bathroom. The bathroom attendant called another counselor over to assist. I wonder if there were special circumstances in that case or if the counselors are able to help the child in some respects.

Denae

 

[MiaSRN62]

Disney has set rules and guidelines for a reason, we shouldn't get mad because we don't fit into them.

I don't feel anyone is "mad" about this. As I mentioned about the 18 year old's being left out-----is more of a case of not "understanding" why certain age groups (i.e. toddlers and older teens) are disregarded aboard the Disney ships.
If it were just an 18 year old that I was concerned with I may opt for another cruise line that pays more attention to this age group (don't fit in with teen group but also can't attend adult functions/clubs). It's like toddlers and older teens are in limbo land and it's a shame Disney can't come up with something viable for them, that's all. I have an 11 and 12 year old also so the clubs for them is not a problem. But it's like I felt pressured to book a cruise before my ds's 18th b-day just so he makes the age cut off. I hardly consider him a full adult at age 18----he's still going to be in high school and not on his own---yet Disney won't allow him to hang with other high schoolers in Common Grounds.
I can understand jodifla's confusion about the toddler "exemption" onboard also. You just wonder why Disney dropped the ball, so to say with certain ages ?

 

[Sue Sullivan]

well, on a positive note, the toddler fare to sail is really a bargain.

 

[crisi]

I suspect they didn't "drop the ball" as looked at what they could do and made a priority set.

They don't have unlimited resources. A room set aside for toddlers or a space for "young adults" would take up room on a pretty well utilized ship. So they identified their "core" market - families with children preschool age through twelve - and targeted them. Understanding that families with twelve year olds often have fourteen year old siblings, they've made an attempt to keep teens happy (but you can tell that this was nearly an afterthought, Common Grounds was never large, and they have recognized an expanded need for this one with The Stack). Toddlers - the eighteen month to third birthday (or potty trained) set - can use Flounders - they aren't completely left out - Flounders just isn't targeted to them. Their "core" is well covered, the edges of the core are fuzzier.

Their secondary market is adult Disney fans traveling without children. They do understand that this is a major market for them and do a good job covering it.

As they don't have a problem filling the ship, they don't need to expand their market by offering additional services.

 

[MiaSRN62]

They don't have unlimited resources. A room set aside for toddlers or a space for "young adults" would take up room on a pretty well utilized ship. So they identified their "core" market - families with children preschool age through twelve - and targeted them.

I agree with you Crisi in that they saw a target audience and went for it, but I am aware of many other cruise lines that accomodate the audience Disney does PLUS make room and time for the toddlers and older teens. Just wondering if they could have fit in room for these left-out age groups somewhere on the ship in the designing stages---but then again, like you said, they weren't prepared for the audience they'd get. Not sure why because they must keep track of their guests stats at WDW. They must be well aware of the age groups and background info on their guests when we make room reservations etc.

If not for my 11 and 12 year old dd's, I may have very well booked one of these other lines.
I'm not unhappy or angry with DCL---if I was I wouldn't have booked our second cruise with them for this year. We loved our last cruise in '02 on the Wonder. It's more that I feel it's a shame that some of this wasn't a little more thought-out on their part especially since they pride themselves on being a well-rounded family vacation (land and sea).

 

[crisi]

I don't think they missed their audience, I think they CHOSE their audience. And I think they said "little kids and older teens are too much bother, lets discourage too many of them from being on the ship and focus on people whose kids are 4-10 and adults who are Disney fans." Smaller children require a higher staff to child ratio - which not only means a room for the kids, but more staff quarters. Plus, additional diaper handling creates additional exposure to all those lovely germs they are trying to keep from infecting everyone. And "young adults" are the perfect age to get into all sorts of trouble (and I know there are plenty of wonderful non-troublesome nineteen year olds - but that there are also nineteen year olds who will sneak booze on board and spend their vacation making out in the hottub - I suspect those where the ones DCL is worried about).

I know other cruise lines do a better job of accomodating a wider variety of ages - and in some ways, it would be nice if Disney did as well. But I believe they made a very intentional choice not to be all things to all people. That's really allowed them to excel at what they have chosen to do.

 

[puffkin]

I could be wrong here, but I thought that the reason that the cruise is so successful is because of what they do differently than other lines. If they start doing things the same as Carnival, then why wouldn't you take a carnival cruise and pay half the cost. Disney chose their core audiences for the cruise, and caters to them.