Whiney letter that I'm sending to WDW about access...

[BroganMc]

Alien Encounter (now Stitch's Great Escape) does have the same shoulder harnesses for the wheelchair spot. The only issue may be your height or the wheelchair's construction blocking the lowering of the shoulder harness. My chair (designed like a regular wheelchair with handlebars) blocks the shoulder harness at the handlebars.

All the special effects are delivered via that shoulder harness. The breath on your neck, stinky burb, bouncing feet and sprays of water (spit).

As for Soarin', since i am able to stand and pivot, it is actually the easiest ride for me to board. The seats are just high enough for me to stand (arthritis prevents me from rising from low seats). My chair is normally pulled off to the side by the CMs but they or my dad) return it to me quickly afterward.

I can see the issues those used to slide transfers endure. I guess I'd question if it was possible to do a pivot transfer. Perhaps this is something not regularly taught or too hard to handle with some disabilities. The only problem with Soarin' is that the seats are curved bucket-style and there's a seatbelt buckle on the side. Even if those armrests could be raised, you'd still have to climb over a hard hump.

Now why rides like Snow White don't have wheelchair vehicles like Pooh, is beyond me. Same ride style, different theming.

Test Track is another disappointment since though it's styled like a car it is more similar to a boat like POTC. One needs to climb over the rim and/or step down into the seat. There isn't even a separate boarding area for disabled guests while the ride must be run in sequence. Makes for lightning fast transfers or easy accidents.

 

[BroganMc]

Since I don't want to go off topic, I'll just provide the link to swimming pool accessibility which we've had problems with and feel that Disney resorts is not meeting the ADAAG on that either.

http://www.access-board.gov/recreation/guides/pools.htm

Big time no on that!

From that file, I see that I should have a pool lift to all the spas (I've yet to see one) and at least a pool lift (or zero entry) to all the pools. Instead I find there are only about 3-4 pools in Disney I can use.

I've said for a long time that the Beach Club resort is a big fat waste of time for me. Beautiful pool but terrible accessibility. Unless I want to get wet up to me knees while kids build sand castles around me.

 

[shovan]

Big time no on that!

From that file, I see that I should have a pool lift to all the spas (I've yet to see one) and at least a pool lift (or zero entry) to all the pools. Instead I find there are only about 3-4 pools in Disney I can use.

I've said for a long time that the Beach Club resort is a big fat waste of time for me. Beautiful pool but terrible accessibility. Unless I want to get wet up to me knees while kids build sand castles around me.

We have sent WDW & DVC a letter on this, detailing the problems, and backing it up with the ADA guidelines, Disney itself helped developed. (We purchased DVC at the BC after being told the pool was accessible, but failing to check that ourselves.) We also included suggestions that were used at other hotels & resorts, such as portable & fixed pool lifts. My DH did get a phone call thanking him for the letter & she said she would personally see to it, that it got into the right hands. That was over a month ago.

 

[PrincessSuzanne]

My DD can't transfer and we usually sit in the front if there are still seats there when we arrive. It has been that way since the first time we went to the show in its current location (it used to be in a fully outdoor theater at another spot). We sat there on our last trip in April and the area was mostly people who could not/did not transfer.
On our last trip, some people arrived into that area after all the wheelchair parking spots were filled. Those people did transfer to a seat and the wheelchair/ECV was moved off to the side. If that happened to someone, they may have come to the erroneous conclusion that you had to transfer to sit there.

The 2 problems with going to the front sections are that the ramp to get down there is rather steep and there are several switch backs (sharp turns) as you go up and down. We have seen people in rental ECVs having a difficult time negotiating those turns. So, the CMs may encourage people in park rental ECVs to sit at the top.

I call that my obstacle course. It's so fun to drive it fast (with an open pathway of course). But you need a vehicle that handles well and has a small turning radius. The entry queue to Living Seas is like that only more fun since you go from bright sunlight to near pitch black. In the days of the old entry movie when the doors opened and closed ever few minutes it was hysterically fun. All those people, unexpectedly blinded by sunglasses trying to make it before the doors closed.

I too always sit in the front, in my wheelchair. You need to arrive some 15-20 minutes before the show starts but you get fantastic seats and you see the pre-show act in all their glory. The Beast always manages to blow me a kiss during his final bows. The Cast is super nice to all those enthusiastically cheering gimps in the front row.

I might be the guilty party to this. On our first experience in December 2006, they did have everyone that came to the front transfer to the benches, so I wasn't aware that they allowed chairs/ECV's in that area, because they didn't that time. Now, on our visit in August 2007, it was getting right at show time and the CM at the back of the theater said that there was an avail area up front, so I went down there and they directed me to the front and center of the stage in my ECV. I was more than willing to park and walk in, but did as I was directed.

I just boo hoo during the finale, and we saw the same Belle both times, and she winked and waved at me, which is so exciting. I LOVE that show.

Suzanne

 

[Talking Hands]

Did you go to Beauty and the Beast when the sign language interpreters where there. For those shows, there is no wheelchair seating allowed in the right front section for the safety of the interpreters. There is insufficient room for them if an ECV is placed there. I know they prefer not to have ECVs in front and try to limit them to the back. Manual wheelchairs are ok.
Several times castmembers have tried to force me to remain in the back for Beauty and the Beast stating ECVs are not allowed in front. I have pointed out that I am not using an ECV but a power wheelchair, I can transfer and I am hard of hearing and use American Sign Language. At that point they usually give up. If not I have them ask the interpreters and that ends the discussion as most all of them know me and will tell them I do use ASL and prefer to have interpreting for shows. Sometimes you have to self advocate.

 

[Haley Whippet]

I agree! Kilamanjaro Safari is the worst..
Great letter Bill, Let us know what happens..
Deb

 

[SueM in MN]

Test Track is another disappointment since though it's styled like a car it is more similar to a boat like POTC. One needs to climb over the rim and/or step down into the seat. There isn't even a separate boarding area for disabled guests while the ride must be run in sequence. Makes for lightning fast transfers or easy accidents.

There is a separate boarding area where guests with mobility disabilities can board. The boarding area is at the 'seatbelt check' area where a CM has you tug on your seatbelt one last time before the ride actually starts.
Getting there involves the person in the wheelchair taking an elevator up one floor to boarding area while the rest of the party climbs a flight of stairs. It is a very small elevator and most EVCs and some larger wheelchairs will not fit. Boarding there is still not easy, similar to climbing over the side of a tub, but it is doable for some people who could not do the 'step down' It is possible to park the wheelchair touching the ride car and then pull yourself in (they even have a removable grab bar). The wheelchair is pulled to the side by the CM and your ride car will return to the same place for exiting.
Again, not easy, but we can get our DD onto the ride there and are not able to get her in the 'usual' boarding area.

 

[cmwade77]

I think the letter was indeed well written, unfortunately due to various operating concerns there is not much they can do, this is why I feel this idea of integrating wheelchairs into the regular queues in unfair, I think that they should take and issue all guests that need assistance a GAC (if they are in a wheelchair, ECV or otherwise), scan the GAC as you get into the line for it and say you can't use the GAC to go on another attraction for 60%-70% of the length of the regular line (unless you have a FP for that attraction, then they shouldn't scan the GAC at all, but rather take the FP). Why do I say only 60%-70%? Well, the difference is approximately the amount of extra time that it takes those with GACs to get around, thus making access a lot more equal.

Of course there will have to be certain attractions where this doesn't apply, for example if the line is under 20 minutes, it would be pointless and at shows where there is a set schedule that can't work either, but aside form the few like that this would work rather well and keep it fair to all involved. And also this wouldn't be required if there can be an unlimited number of wheelchairs on any given attraction.

Also please note that I said that the GAC should be scanned when the guest ENTERS the queue this way any amount of time that is spent waiting for that attraction should already be counted, the GAC should additionally be scanned as the guest is getting on the attraction, this way if they waited longer than the 60%-70% of the stand by time that extra time can be subtracted from future wait times and the guest should always be informed when they can next use the GAC card.

By the way the link about the pools was interesting, you can use it to get to all sorts of other stuff.

 

[terri01p]

I really think that WDW is getting away from trying to be wheelchair "friendly " and now they are doing just what they have to do to get by. Whenever we were there in April we waited 1 hour and 45 min on a boat to take us back to our resort, 4 boats came and went before we were allowed on and then whenever we were allowed on people huffed and puffed because we were placed on first, like we just walked up and proceeded on. We waited 30 min on the Atladin ride , we watched it go around and around until the girl remembered us, these are just an example, I could go on and on. Also I wanted to add there is nothing like going though a queue with 100 sweaty people around you and your at lower level with no fresh air, try it sometime, my dd passed out because of this in the line for winnie the pooh ( never again ).

 

[Schmeck]

Aren't a lot of MK's attractions 'old', as in, built before the ADA? Would that be why they are so inaccessible? WDW doesn't have to alter them until they have a major rehab, right? Or do they?

Were most of the pools built before ADA as well? Does that make a difference if they are properly accessible or not?

 

[SueM in MN]

Aren't a lot of MK's attractions 'old', as in, built before the ADA? yes
Would that be why they are so inaccessible? yes
WDW doesn't have to alter them until they have a major rehab, right? yes Or do they? yes, no or maybe

Were most of the pools built before ADA as well? yes
Does that make a difference if they are properly accessible or not? yes

The attractions at any of the parks built before the ADA came into effect were built for efficiency with people walking on. Most queues were designed to start out large and get smaller and smaller the closer you get to the boarding area (like a funnel). This delivers a single file line for orderly boarding.
They were also designed for efficiency in unloading, so many attractions have boarding from one side of the ride vehicle and unloading at the same spot, but on the other side.
Very efficient for people walking on with no wheelchairs, but causes all sorts of problems for people using wheelchairs.

New rides/attractions have to be built to comply with the guidelines that I posted earlier in the thread. That includes some things about the width of the queues, the size of the wheelchair area and the design of wheelchair accessible ride cars. The 'common wheelchair' that is used in the definition is not necessarily the size or shape of most wheelchairs being used. So, there are some attractions, even with ride cars, where the wheelchair an individual person uses won't fit.
The guidelines are also minimums - the same way the minimum guidelines for wheelchair accessible stalls come up with wheelchair stalls that a wheelchair won't actually fit into.

Whether renovated attractions have to comply depends on what was done.
If they change the actual loading or unloading area, they have to comply. Most things other than that are considered 'cosmetic' and they are not required to comply (at least from my interpretation.
The work that was done recently on Pirates was cosmetic. They did not change the load or unload areas or the design of the boats at all.

The work done on Imagination (when they switched from the original attraction to the first renovation) heavily involved the load and unload area, since the old load/unload area is part of the shop now.

The work changing Mr. Toad's Wild Ride to the Many Adventures of Winnie the Pooh was cosmetic as far as the loading/unloading goes. The ride car was considerably re-designed though (Mr. Toad's cars were more like Snow White's with a different theme. Winnie the Pooh's bounce and do 'extra' things like simulate floating.

The recent renovation on Haunted Mansion was cosmetic. I haven't seen the new ride cars yet, but from what I have heard they have upgrades in the sound system. That would be cosmetic too.

There is also another little clause in there about 'feasibility'. Even if the whole ride is totally renovated, it is not required that they meet the guidelines if it's not feasible.

There are some situations where I don't think they were 'required' to make any changes, but they did. The best example of that is Jungle Cruise.

I haven't read the pool regulations at any detail, so I don't know what kind of changes would 'trigger' the requirement for adding accessibility. I did look at them when OKW got a totally renovated pool with a slide to see whether they would be required to put in a zero entry feature and it appeared to me that they would not (and the pool doesn't have zero entry).
I expect there is some 'cosmetic renovation' clause in there too, so much of the work done on pools is actually cosmetic. I also know that they have added 'bump steps' to most pools over the years. Those are an access method listed in the pool guidelines. They work for some people (not at all for my DD, and many other people). I don't see that it would be that difficult to add pool lifts, but if the law doesn't require them..........

 

[SueM in MN]

I really think that WDW is getting away from trying to be wheelchair "friendly " and now they are doing just what they have to do to get by.

I think some of that has to do with the increased number of wheelchairs.
When we first started going to WDW with a wheelchair in 1988, we could go a whole day without seeing any wheelchairs at all. Not even rental ones (except at Epcot where there were a lot of older people who did use wheelchair even then). But, when we got on rides, there were seldom any people with wheelchairs waiting. It was very unusual for us to see another child in a wheelchair - many of the ones we did see were clearly on WISH trips.

Over the years, we noticed more and more wheelchairs, both people in their own wheelchairs and people in rented ones. Part of that was people like us telling friends that there was stuff someone using a wheelchair could do at WDW. Part of it was also people who realized they really needed a wheelchair to avoid pain and accomodate their disability and that they could rent a wheelchair at the parks. Now, it's unusual to go for more than 15 minutes without seeing someone in a wheelchair or ECV. And, in boarding rides or attractions, we are now usually one of many instead of one and only.

We also noticed that some of the guidebooks actually said that wheelchair users got 'special treatment' and sort of in a 'wink, wink, nudge, nudge' attittude, suggested renting a wheelchair for 2 kids to ride in together rather than using a double stroller.

I think some of the current situation is the result of those things and some is actually the result of the ADA and emphasis on guests in wheelchairs being handled the same. So, in some case now, they are bending over backwards to handle people 'the same' in terms of the wait in the regular line, which often means longer if the wheelchair b oarding is not in the regular spot or there is need to wait for a wheelchair car.

 

[shovan]

Sue, It was our understanding that ADA Accessibilty Guidelines regarding Recreation Facilities were still just that, Guidelines. They had not been enacted as law. Do you know if that is correct?

 

[bzzymom]

I appreciate your letter. I agree with it, especially about KS. I think that they need more buses that are accessible to keep that line moving better. My mom who rides in and ecv and I had to wait 30 minutes in the regular line, and then got to the other line and the "special bus" came about 10 minutes later and filled up, so we had to wait for that bus to go through and come back. It was terribly long. We have not had a problem at a show yet, but I see how that could happen.

 

[terri01p]

I think some of that has to do with the increased number of wheelchairs.
When we first started going to WDW with a wheelchair in 1988, we could go a whole day without seeing any wheelchairs at all. Not even rental ones (except at Epcot where there were a lot of older people who did use wheelchair even then). But, when we got on rides, there were seldom any people with wheelchairs waiting. It was very unusual for us to see another child in a wheelchair - many of the ones we did see were clearly on WISH trips.

Over the years, we noticed more and more wheelchairs, both people in their own wheelchairs and people in rented ones. Part of that was people like us telling friends that there was stuff someone using a wheelchair could do at WDW. Part of it was also people who realized they really needed a wheelchair to avoid pain and accomodate their disability and that they could rent a wheelchair at the parks. Now, it's unusual to go for more than 15 minutes without seeing someone in a wheelchair or ECV. And, in boarding rides or attractions, we are now usually one of many instead of one and only.

We also noticed that some of the guidebooks actually said that wheelchair users got 'special treatment' and sort of in a 'wink, wink, nudge, nudge' attittude, suggested renting a wheelchair for 2 kids to ride in together rather than using a double stroller.

I think some of the current situation is the result of those things and some is actually the result of the ADA and emphasis on guests in wheelchairs being handled the same. So, in some case now, they are bending over backwards to handle people 'the same' in terms of the wait in the regular line, which often means longer if the wheelchair b oarding is not in the regular spot or there is need to wait for a wheelchair car.

I agree with you on this, whenever we went to WDW 20 yrs ago, you rarely ever seen a wheelchair user. I think I was having a mini melt down over the haunted manison not being wheelchair acessible whenever I wrote this .

 

[madenon]

Talking Hands,

actually the show I went to had sign language interpreters right there. We were still allowed in the front section while staying in the chair. Maybe because it were only 2 of us (me alone and another lady with her husband and child) and we were no way near the interpreters? -interpreters were on the far right hand of the stage and we were right in front of the middle of the stage-. Either that, or you advocating yourself has made Disney rethink it all.

 

[Talking Hands]

The only area that cannot have a wheelchair or ECV in it is the area in front where the interpreters stand. The right hand section. Middle and left can be used by wheelchairs and ECVs. In the past they tried to limit it to manual chairs. I normally transfer to a seat since I use sign language.

 

[SueM in MN]

Sue, It was our understanding that ADA Accessibilty Guidelines regarding Recreation Facilities were still just that, Guidelines. They had not been enacted as law. Do you know if that is correct?

I don't know for sure.

 

[MarieS]

When my boys went on Buzz Lightyear, I took one of them in the accessible car while the second child stayed behind with our friend. He had to wait until the ride circled around. They cannot transfer. The CM told me they have more than one accessible car and use to have two of them on the ride, but now only had one. I don't know why they don't have more acessible cars since when there is no one with a wheelchair riding, it can be used by other guests.
With the Safari, they had more than one accessible car so we each took a boy and rode about 5 minutes apart.

 

[cmwade77]

I don't know for sure.

I work in designing buildings and I can guarantee you that the ADA guidelines are the law in California and Florida, note that you can choose to exceed those guidelines, if you fail to meet them, you can be sued by those affected and shut down by the state. Unfortunately those that need the equal access that he ADA provides usually do not have much money, let alone can they afford to go up against Disney and the respective cites, counties and states won't due anything for fear of losing the tax money. All that being said, Disney actually has among the best access out of any of the companies that I have seen to date, they really do go out of their way, could they do more? Yes! Should they do more? Yes! But let's give credit where credit is due, they do a lot to try to accommodate all of their guests.