Which car does this describe?

[tvguy]

interesting, I drive a 2002 Chrysler 300M Special,{ front wheel drive } I run Blizzak snow tires in the winter and I've driven in several major snow storms without problem, and in these storms I've literally seen dozens of AWD and
4WD vehicles stuck along side the road..

What about REAR wheel drive? My uncles and cousins in Canada all swear that a rear drive car, with 200 pounds of sand in the trunk, is the safest car in the snow. And none use snow tires, just a good all season tire.
The are universal is saying they would never drive a front wheel drive car in the snow, and among the family members I have in Canada there are 27 cars, just one front wheel drive car, no AWD and no 4 x 4's. And the lone front wheel drive car (a 1982 Chevy Citation) is kept at a fishing cabin and only used in the summer.

 

[MarkBarbieri]

I am surprised that safety isn't even on your list. Given how dangerous driving is and how variance there is between cars, I start my search with safety. Informedforlife.org is my favorite car safety site.

 

[MICKEY88]

I am glad you have had good luck with your 300M. My experience has been the opposite of yours.



Nope, just personal opinion. I did see a show on the issue, which was done somewhere in Europe, and the AWD car was superior.

the main reason us cars went FW drive was because of stats on european cars and handling in bad weather, RW drive is more prone to skidding, however with newer cars and stability control. RW drive is much better than old RW drive cars..

 

[MICKEY88]

What about REAR wheel drive? My uncles and cousins in Canada all swear that a rear drive car, with 200 pounds of sand in the trunk, is the safest car in the snow. And none use snow tires, just a good all season tire.
The are universal is saying they would never drive a front wheel drive car in the snow, and among the family members I have in Canada there are 27 cars, just one front wheel drive car, no AWD and no 4 x 4's. And the lone front wheel drive car (a 1982 Chevy Citation) is kept at a fishing cabin and only used in the summer.

well my experience has been quite different, belonging to the chryslerr 300m enthusisast club, we have 1000s of members worldwide, and the general consensus is, dedicated snow tires will get our cars thru anything as long as they aren't bottomed out in the snow

 

[tvguy]

well my experience has been quite different, belonging to the chryslerr 300m enthusisast club, we have 1000s of members worldwide, and the general consensus is, dedicated snow tires will get our cars thru anything as long as they aren't bottomed out in the snow

Guess I don't dare mention mention Chrysler abandoned the front drive platform for the 300 and went back to rear drive.

 

[MICKEY88]

Guess I don't dare mention mention Chrysler abandoned the front drive platform for the 300 and went back to rear drive.

you can mention it all you want, I mentioned the reason in my prior post..

"however with newer cars and stability control. RW drive is much better than old RW drive cars.. "

it wasn't just the 300, it was the entire LX platform,

 

[Squirlz]

the main reason us cars went FW drive was because of stats on european cars and handling in bad weather, RW drive is more prone to skidding, however with newer cars and stability control. RW drive is much better than old RW drive cars..

Close, but the reason was so they could compete with foreign cars by making cars cheaper. US car companies weren't doing much to benefit customers in those days. Look at the first FWD economy cars like the Citation. Basically death traps. It was all in the interest of making money.

 

[Wish I lived in Fl]

I start my search with safety. Informedforlife.org is my favorite car safety site.

Thank you for posting that website.
Made me appreciate my husband for talking me into a Honda Civic instead of a Honda Fit.

 

[NHdisneylover]

Hmm...can you show me the data on this? Honestly, in my limited experience I've been very pleased with foul-weather handling of a FWD vehicle with dedicated snow tires. While I would assume comparing FWD and AWD both with snows, the AWD would be superior, does AWD with "all-season" tires actually outperform a FWD vehicle with snows?

I would think much of it comes down to driving conditions. Here, we're only worried about paved roads with snow and ice, not off-road conditions. You need a certain amount of clearance to keep from running into issues in heavy snow, but a FWD car with sufficient clearance seems to do just fine.

+1 to Mickey88 with the AWD/4WD vehicles in the ditch while my FWD car (I've been running Nokian Hakka's) does just fine.

OP, good luck with your search. Having read through the entire thread though, I'm not sure how much success you'll have. If you can't seem to find comfortable seating in your living room, I'm not sure there is much hope of finding it in a vehicle, honestly!

I think people tend to think that their AWD/4WD will stop faster/better which, or course, is just not true. I have actually had many conversations who truly believe AWD drive means they can stop faster in snow/ice They end up in the ditch when they cannot stop quickly enough or drive so fast as to lose control. Both stopping and control will be better with better tires though.

I am glad you have had good luck with your 300M. My experience has been the opposite of yours.



Nope, just personal opinion. I did see a show on the issue, which was done somewhere in Europe, and the AWD car was superior.

Hmmm--well that is totally contrary to my experience and opinion. Funny, but here in Germany people are extremely safety conscious and LOVE their cars. They are very concerned with having the right car with the right features for exactly what they will be doing. The VAST majority of drivers (I would estimate from 80-90%) have FWD cars and swap out winter tires/summer tires every year. Based on what I know of this culture I have to believe if there were a body of credible evidence that AWD drive would be much safer that this would not be the case here. I guess lacking some posted eveidence we will just have different opinions here

Bicker--is it possible your wife really does not want a new car and is creating obstacles as a way of avoiding just telling you no? My father in law is like that--he won't say he doesn't want something at all--he just makes it too hard to get whatever the something is to fit his requirements. Somehow he thinks if he says no he will hurt people's feelings but if he waists their time while they look for the perfect thing it is all good

 

[RC Fan]

I think people tend to think that their AWD/4WD will stop faster/better which, or course, is just not true. I have actually had many conversations who truly believe AWD drive means they can stop faster in snow/ice They end up in the ditch when they cannot stop quickly enough or drive so fast as to lose control. Both stopping and control will be better with better tires though.


Hmmm--well that is totally contrary to my experience and opinion. Funny, but here in Germany people are extremely safety conscious and LOVE their cars. They are very concerned with having the right car with the right features for exactly what they will be doing. The VAST majority of drivers (I would estimate from 80-90%) have FWD cars and swap out winter tires/summer tires every year. Based on what I know of this culture I have to believe if there were a body of credible evidence that AWD drive would be much safer that this would not be the case here. I guess lacking some posted eveidence we will just have different opinions here:

My car has fabulous brakes too!

Again, I don't have any hard evidence here, but I am confident my '08 WRX or any other AWD Subaru (any Subaru model year 98 or newer) will outperform your typical front wheel drive car with snow tires in winter conditions.

 

[bicker]

I am surprised that safety isn't even on your list.

Safety is a given. I mentioned earlier in the thread that I don't consider the Cooper Mini a consideration, and that was because of my concern about her safety.

 

[tvguy]

..

I think people tend to think that their AWD/4WD will stop faster/better which, or course, is just not true. I have actually had many conversations who truly believe AWD drive means they can stop faster in snow/ice They end up in the ditch when they cannot stop quickly enough or drive so fast as to lose control. Both stopping and control will be better with better tires though.

A lot of Police departments here order their patrol cars without the ABS and Stability Control options because they believe that with proper training, their officers can better control the car without these options. As for private cars, the insurance companies used to give a discount if your car had ABS. Some stopped that because they discovered that ABS equipped cars were more likely to be involved in crashes. The specualtion is that folks with ABS drive more aggressively because they think the ABS will bail them out when they make a mistake.

Hmmm--well that is totally contrary to my experience and opinion. Funny, but here in Germany people are extremely safety conscious and LOVE their cars. They are very concerned with having the right car with the right features for exactly what they will be doing. The VAST majority of drivers (I would estimate from 80-90%) have FWD cars and swap out winter tires/summer tires every year. Based on what I know of this culture I have to believe if there were a body of credible evidence that AWD drive would be much safer that this would not be the case here. I guess lacking some posted eveidence we will just have different opinions here


I don't have a breakdown of best brands sold in Germany, but I don't think Mercedes and BMW even make front wheel drive cars. I know Volkswagen-Audi do. And of course there's the old debate over why so many Europeans buy diesel powered cars. We don't general even have that as an option here in the U.S. since they put out too much pollution to meet our emissions laws.

 

[NHdisneylover]

Even with AWD--most people here switch into winter tires. Also, more and more diesels do make the standards in the US and some are in most but not all states (I think Mercedes has one in 40ish states). The emissions differences is getting smaller and smaller--and is a bot odd, generally the CO2 is better but the particulate matter is worse. When you are paying what the Europeans do for gas, then the fuel consumption (which is an environmental concern as well as an economic one) really hits home and the diesels do 30-40% better in that area. It absolutely gets complicated with a huge number of factors (varying laws, varying customs, different types of driving, etc) playing into it.

I can totally see the ordering vehicles without ABS. Like AWD/4WD it gives a false sense of security. I have ABS because it is so standard, but I do prefer controlling the car myself (one reason I always drive a standard).

 

[tvguy]

Even with AWD--most people here switch into winter tires. Also, more and more diesels do make the standards in the US and some are in most but not all states (I think Mercedes has one in 40ish states). The emissions differences is getting smaller and smaller--and is a bot odd, generally the CO2 is better but the particulate matter is worse. When you are paying what the Europeans do for gas, then the fuel consumption (which is an environmental concern as well as an economic one) really hits home and the diesels do 30-40% better in that area. It absolutely gets complicated with a huge number of factors (varying laws, varying customs, different types of driving, etc) playing into it.

I can totally see the ordering vehicles without ABS. Like AWD/4WD it gives a false sense of security. I have ABS because it is so standard, but I do prefer controlling the car myself (one reason I always drive a standard).

No question, diesels go futher. But at least here in California, diesel prices fluctuate so much. It's currently right aroung $3.30 a gallon, where as gasoline is $2.99. My neighbor got rid of a gasoline pickup and bought a diesel. He's getting better mileage now, but with the higher price for diesel his total fuel bill is the same.
I rented a front drive minivan with traction control last week. Traction control is pretty scary. I was accelerating from a dead stop, turning left, on a road with some loose gravel on it. All of sudden there was this loud growling sound, I thought something had failed on the car. It did it again and I noticed that "Traction Control Activated" was lit up on the dashboard. Not sure if the noise was the brakes being rapidly pumped, or if the noise is there to warn you that the Traction Control is engaged, but for me that noise was more dangerous (as in distracting) than the brief loss of traction on the gravel.

 

[MJMouse]

That was our first thought (we had Subarus for years) but they're just not comfortable enough; surely not as comfortable as what we have now. This would be the car we make the drive from Boston to Knoxville (in one day) in, so the seating really needs to be top-notch.

Love my Subaru. If you haven't driven one in a while, take a test drive. I would agree that the older Subies are not all the comfortable. However they've come a long, long way. Love the 6 way drivers seat, leather in the outback/legacy. Have heard the tribecca is better

 

[MICKEY88]

.

1.
As for private cars, the insurance companies used to give a discount if your car had ABS. Some stopped that because they discovered that ABS equipped cars were more likely to be involved in crashes. The specualtion is that folks with ABS drive more aggressively because they think the ABS will bail them out when they make a mistake.



2.
I don't have a breakdown of best brands sold in Germany, but I don't think Mercedes and BMW even make front wheel drive cars. .
.

1. I'd be more likely to believe that insurance companies stopped offering the discount because most new cars are eqipped with ABS, and insurance companies are all about making max profit, so eliminating the discount is easier than upping rates.


2. BMW announced in march that they will be making FWD cars, and as far as mercedes, they might not make FWD under the mercedes name in europe,, but they certainly made a lot of chrysler/dodge FWDs under daimler/chrysler

 

[emdav]

We have a Fusion. I drove that car about 6,000 miles this summer from Phoenix to Cleveland, on to Washington DC, and back. I drove some long days and I was never uncomfortable.

 

[bicker]

Here's an update on the Washington State laws regarding GPS systems. My wife forwarded me the context of the discussions from her company's Intranet, and my read doesn't match hers.

The applicable laws are RCW 46.61.667 and RCW 46.61.668, amended as follows:

http://apps.leg.wa.gov/documents/billdocs/2009-10/Pdf/Bills/Session Law 2010/6345-S.SL.pdf

The way it looks to me, the law does not restrict using a GPS for GPS-y type things (period). The law does restrict using a GPS for TXTing; the 2010 update that I think was the focus of the discussion seem (to me) simply to explicitly allow using a GPS for TXTing if and only if it is voice activated and affixed (which we can assume is being implemented as "installed into" based on the reports from folks living in Washington State). And the law (even as amended) allows use of a GPS (even if not installed into the dash) for selecting a telephone number from the directory to make a phone call through the GPS.

(I'm not advocating any of these uses, by the way. Some of them sound dangerous to me. I'm just talking about what is and is not illegal.)

 

[MICKEY88]

Here's an update on the Washington State laws regarding GPS systems. My wife forwarded me the context of the discussions from her company's Intranet, and my read doesn't match hers.

The applicable laws are RCW 46.61.667 and RCW 46.61.668, amended as follows:

http://apps.leg.wa.gov/documents/billdocs/2009-10/Pdf/Bills/Session Law 2010/6345-S.SL.pdf

The way it looks to me, the law does not restrict using a GPS for GPS-y type things (period). The law does restrict using a GPS for TXTing; the 2010 update that I think was the focus of the discussion seem (to me) simply to explicitly allow using a GPS for TXTing if and only if it is voice activated and affixed (which we can assume is being implemented as "installed into" based on the reports from folks living in Washington State). And the law (even as amended) allows use of a GPS (even if not installed into the dash) for selecting a telephone number from the directory to make a phone call through the GPS.

(I'm not advocating any of these uses, by the way. Some of them sound dangerous to me. I'm just talking about what is and is not illegal.)

after reading this several times, I respectfully disagree, they go back and forth form gps, to elctronic communications device{cell phone/pda}

1.the law does restrict the use of gps, it clearly states it is legal as long as it is "A voice-operated global positioning or navigation system that
is affixed to the vehicle and that allows the user to send or receive
messages without diverting visual attention from the road or engaging
the use of either hand;"

affixed would be permanently installed, or attached via suction cup to windshield, or dash mat, so that rules out using iphone if handheld, if iphone or other phone is mounted by some device, it would be worth fighting in court if you are charged..

2. the section on texting is refering to electronic communications device/cell phone..

this section is crazy.

"A person does not send, read, or write a text
message when he or she reads, selects, or enters a phone number or name
in a wireless communications device for the purpose of making a phone
call."

basically you can pick up your phone scroll thu email or contacts, find a number select that number to make a call, but then put the phone down and use handsfree.. I would think that would be more dangerous than holding the phone while you talk...

 

[bicker]

She's just relaying how the folks from Washington State are saying that the term "affixed" is being enforced. I think the wording of the laws are such that we, here, probably can't parse them and use that parsing to understand what those laws mean. They're likely worded so as to mesh with other Washington State laws and enforcement practices, and so there is information that we don't have to will determine what is and is not legal there.