Where is bottom?

Yes, Grand Cal is completely not worth the premium. I think everyone with a Dec UY contract should show Disney that they mean business and put their contracts on the market at $185pp so they can stay at the JW.

😁
Hahaha. Well, when you’re ready to do that, cut out the middle man and come straight to me 🤣

I see a couple of $ per point drop on the AKV contracts I’m watching.

What do you guys think, is there more to go?

I’m getting very tempted
 
Yes, Grand Cal is completely not worth the premium. I think everyone with a Dec UY contract should show Disney that they mean business and put their contracts on the market at $185pp so they can stay at the JW.

😁
and @ClaraOswald:

I have both Dec and Jun UY at VGC to cover year-round stays. 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
But I love being able to pop into DCA for whatever early mornings then flop back onto my bed then figure out what I want to do 😂😂😂

There have been occasions (such as the recent DVC MM) when I didn’t have VGC booked and I looked at JW and Westin. I just couldn’t see spending the money and having to walk the distance. And I am not comfortable walking by myself late at night. So on those occasions I actually drove home instead. 😕
 
Inflation outside of WDW, particularly in dining, has made WDW prices seem downright reasonable.
A trip to the Wisconsin Dells for my middle son's birthday made me realize WDW wasn't as expensive as I first thought. I'll pay to fly for the magic of WDW over a tourist trap town that can be reached easily by car. On a per person per day cost, they aren't as far apart as one might think.
 

I think WDW should be compared to a nice cruise ship, both in terms of the immersive experience and the cost. It truly is a very special place.
 
Hahaha. Well, when you’re ready to do that, cut out the middle man and come straight to me 🤣

I see a couple of $ per point drop on the AKV contracts I’m watching.

What do you guys think, is there more to go?

I’m getting very tempted
I'm also watching the akv contracts. We're starting to see offers get through rofr around $100 and into the $90s. But I don't think we're even close to the bottom yet. We may have to wait until fall or next winter for the bottom. I'm willing to wait. The big question is what will prices be like then... perhaps $80s or maybe even $70s for akv? I couldn't imagine an akv contact in the $60s.Is it possible? Like I said we're already seeing akv in get into the $90s on occasion.
 
I'm also watching the akv contracts. We're starting to see offers get through rofr around $100 and into the $90s. But I don't think we're even close to the bottom yet. We may have to wait until fall or next winter for the bottom. I'm willing to wait. The big question is what will prices be like then... perhaps $80s or maybe even $70s for akv? I couldn't imagine an akv contact in the $60s.Is it possible? Like I said we're already seeing akv in get into the $90s on occasion.
I doubt it’ll get anywhere near that low. At a certain point, owners would rather just rent the points and hold the contract until prices go back up rather than get hosed for 4,000+ (assuming a 100 point contract). AKV rooms are still going to be going for 500 a night or more meaning there will still be value on the rental market. Unless someone REALLY needs cash at that time they’d be better off renting.
 
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I doubt it’ll get anywhere near that low. At a certain point, owners would rather just rent the points and hold the contract until prices go back up rather than get hosed for 4,000+ (assuming a 100 point contract). AKV rooms are still going to be going for 500 a night or more meaning there will still be value on the rental market. Unless someone REALLY needs cash at that time they’d be better off renting.
BWV was selling for $50 around 2010, so anything is possible.
 
BWV was selling for $50 around 2010, so anything is possible.
Exactly! The last big DVC resale price collapse came as a surprise to a lot of DVC owners. It took some time for sellers to adjust, and prices bottomed out a couple of years after the recession.

At one point, BCV was selling for about $65 per point and it had a dozen more years left on the contract than it has today.
 
I doubt it’ll get anywhere near that low. At a certain point, owners would rather just rent the points and hold the contract until prices go back up rather than get hosed for 4,000+ (assuming a 100 point contract). AKV rooms are still going to be going for 500 a night or more meaning there will still be value on the rental market. Unless someone REALLY needs cash at that time they’d be better off renting.
Renting serves to decelerate a decline for the reasons you mentioned, but there’s not an infinite market for renters, especially at current rental prices, which are generally now barely below just getting a room for cash.

Renting won’t save a falling market forever.
 
I'm also watching the akv contracts. We're starting to see offers get through rofr around $100 and into the $90s. But I don't think we're even close to the bottom yet. We may have to wait until fall or next winter for the bottom. I'm willing to wait. The big question is what will prices be like then... perhaps $80s or maybe even $70s for akv? I couldn't imagine an akv contact in the $60s.Is it possible? Like I said we're already seeing akv in get into the $90s on occasion.
Also, outside of Value and Concierge Rooms, AKV units are among the easiest to book, even inside the 7 month mark. We have AKV points and wish we had BWV points, since we could get a AKV 2 bedroom just about anytime we wanted. At the time we bought AKV, it had a price premium of $10-$15 dollars over BWV and SSR, but I can really see it going for the same price as SSR.
 
Renting serves to decelerate a decline for the reasons you mentioned, but there’s not an infinite market for renters, especially at current rental prices, which are generally now barely below just getting a room for cash.

Renting won’t save a falling market forever.

But cash price should be a floor. The saying they go to zero value is a sloppy way of saying the contract ends. But they all end. As long as the contract is valid, it is still a room and has some value based on Rack rates.

In the final year the points are still worth ~$16 in todays dollars.

They are still the most expensive points based on that 2042 expiration, balanced somewhat with points charts, but they are not unique in that they end.

With 18 yrs left, it will be a while before they get to $16 pp. Heck it could be a $5 per year drop for the next 2 decades. Not a sudden dive.
 
But cash price should be a floor. The saying they go to zero value is a sloppy way of saying the contract ends. But they all end. As long as the contract is valid, it is still a room and has some value based on Rack rates.
Yes, but once the MF's get above the rack rate per year, this is when they will go to zero, not in the last year but probably the last 5 years.
 
Yes, but once the MF's get above the rack rate per year, this is when they will go to zero, not in the last year but probably the last 5 years.
Sure, if that actually happens. I don’t personally think DVC maintenance is going to outstrip hotel maintenance by a significant amount, so rack rates and maintenance fees will rise together maintaining a value.

There will be just as much risk of declining quality as maintenance is cut back on a end of life scenario for the structures. That would actually hold MF in check.
 
Renting serves to decelerate a decline for the reasons you mentioned, but there’s not an infinite market for renters, especially at current rental prices, which are generally now barely below just getting a room for cash.

Renting won’t save a falling market forever.
True renting won’t save a falling market forever, but this also assumes ROFR is pretty much dead forever. And then you also again have to keep in mind that the cash rates will still be higher so there’s still inherent value. Renting isn’t the markets only lifeboat.

Will it go down in value? Of course. I mean obviously at some point the number of years left on it will start to affect its value just like any DVC contract so at some point it will drop to being worth nothing. Guaranteed. We may never even see this high of prices ever again on resale contracts. I guess all I’m saying is I don’t expect it to happen overnight.
 
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But cash price should be a floor. The saying they go to zero value is a sloppy way of saying the contract ends. But they all end. As long as the contract is valid, it is still a room and has some value based on Rack rates.

In the final year the points are still worth ~$16 in todays dollars.

They are still the most expensive points based on that 2042 expiration, balanced somewhat with points charts, but they are not unique in that they end.

With 18 yrs left, it will be a while before they get to $16 pp. Heck it could be a $5 per year drop for the next 2 decades. Not a sudden dive.

It also comes with whether or not it’s worth it to buy because missing one or two years I’d trips in the final 15 years can change its value.

But, it’s not about the 2042 in isolation. It’s whether buyers want to spend a bit more to get a contract that lasts 20 extra years.

So, by 10 years left, the buyer pool for those resorts is going to be a lot smaller than it is today and that alone is going to force the price lower if a seller wants out and is okay with a very low sale price.
 
Yes, if you miss a trip in an eighteen-year window it has much greater impact.

I wholeheartedly agree with you at 10 years out.

I wonder if the price drop at 10 years could make buying in stages a good value?

In 2032 buy a 2042 resort

In 2042 buy a 2050 resort

In 2050 buy a 2060 resort

Will the 10+ year left prices may actually end up worth the purchase. You might even be able to have sellers pay the closing costs etc.

One thing is your initial commitment to DVC will be less.

A 10-year resort could be a nice jumping off point for a young family with children.

It will always depend on the price point.
 
But cash price should be a floor. The saying they go to zero value is a sloppy way of saying the contract ends. But they all end. As long as the contract is valid, it is still a room and has some value based on Rack rates.
I'd amend this slightly: they have some value based on prevailing rates. If Disney has to discount rooms to get them to move, rack doesn't matter. Prospective renters will be comparing to the rates they'd pay, not list price.

There will also always be a gap between prevailing rates and DVC rentals, because the latter come with additional risk to the renter. The brokers have ameliorated that somewhat, but they can't close the gap entirely.

Likewise, there will always be some gap between the "worth" of a contract on the resale market and the "value" of those points compared to prevailing rates. That's because cash is king when it comes to flexibility, and points can only reasonably be spent on DVC lodging. A buyer is giving up some flexibility in exchange for the discount. Without a material discount, why bother buying?

but once the MF's get above the rack rate per year
I think this is extremely unlikely to happen at WDW, even transiently, and even considering prevailing rates rather than rack. Dues are legally obligated to be set at the cost of operating and maintaining the resort. Therefore, they tend to track "real" inflation pretty closely. Hotel rates are not based on cost; they are based on supply and demand. Historically, Disney's hotel rates have gone up at least at the rate of inflation, and typically just a bit more than that IIRC. Disney's hotel rates would have to drop by quite a bit to meet the Dues number, even on the least desirable rooms.

For example: one of the worst "values" in the system (comparing points cost to rack rate) is a 1BR at SSR in Preferred. The Dues cost on a week in that unit in what used to be called Magic Season is about $2,150 (274pt * $7.8622/pt). The lowest rack rate for a week on that room in that season is pushing $6K. There is a lot of room for Disney to discount that room and still leave value for an owner.

The "fly in the ointment/monkey in the wrench" (NSFW language) is where the supply and demand for DVC rentals goes. The number of people who both know about DVC rentals and are willing to take on their risk is smaller than the pool of Disney visitors in general. There are an ever-increasing number of owners. If a larger fraction of them start to rent out and/or a smaller pool of guests are willing to rent from them, prices can go sideways quickly.

We saw that in reverse during the post-COVID run-up. Rental prices had been relatively static prior to the pandemic, and then all heck broke loose afterward. In the intervening time, a WHOLE LOT of people have been buying with the intention to rent out some or all of their points, based on the chatter on these here boards. It seems likely that the pool of landlords has already gone up. Will the pool of renters keep pace? There are at least some signs that the answer is "maybe not."

And, ultimately, the (financial) value of owning a DVC point is not (only) defined by the prevailing rental rates from Disney. It is also defined by the prevailing rental rate from an Owner.

All of this is a long-winded way of saying: don't get too wrapped up in whether or not DVC is saving you money. It isn't. Instead, it is a way to force yourself to go on more and better vacations.
 



















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