Where is bottom?

Historically, Disney's hotel rates have gone up at least at the rate of inflation, and typically just a bit more than that IIRC.
Disney’s hotel rates tracked within a point or a point and a half of inflation for most of their history, except for a period in the early to mid 2010s where they skyrocketed, and this past year where they increased much less than inflation. You could find individual examples of resorts and weeks where it’s been much steeper, and people often do on these boards, but in aggregate that’s the real real - the hotels mostly track slightly above inflation.
 
All of this is a long-winded way of saying: don't get too wrapped up in whether or not DVC is saving you money. It isn't. Instead, it is a way to force yourself to go on more and better vacations.
You hold court on this a lot (and don't get me wrong, your posts are always very interesting) but your whole basis for "a timeshare doesn't save you money" is based on YOUR PERSONAL experience with using your timeshare. And your version is probably true for a lot of people but it's not true for everyone. Maybe not even most of them. You say it doesn't save you money because you go on more vacations to use your timeshare, thus actually spending more money than you would have. HOWEVER, if you buy DVC and use it exactly the same way you previously vacationed at Disney, you probably will save money. If you have to vacation more to use your DVC, you overbought plain and simple.

MY personal experience is that I'm not saving money but I am staying at a nicer place for the same money I was spending. I don't save money because I bought in at BCV during a high so my long term ppp is high due to short contract. But I am able to stay at BCV for roughly the same price I was paying to stay at Pop Century at rack rate (I haven't gotten a discount in years there for my dates). If I had bought cheaper points with a longer contract I would absolutely be saving money. I am a spreadsheet nerd and I make a very thorough one for every trip. I know exactly what my cost breakdown is. For my trip 2 weeks ago, my lodging costs were around $200 more than the rack rate at Pop for that same week. $200 is close enough for me and worth it to "upgrade" from Pop. (Probably it was only higher because I had 4 nights at BLT Lake View thus spending more points than I would have at BCV. I have been going to WDW once a year for 20 years. I continue to go once a year. As long as rack rates continue to rise along with dues, I will continue to "break even". Sure if Disney offers some scandalous discount on cash rooms, I might not come out ahead. But hey, I can always take the scandalous deal, and bank or rent my points. LOL
 
You hold court on this a lot (and don't get me wrong, your posts are always very interesting) but your whole basis for "a timeshare doesn't save you money" is based on YOUR PERSONAL experience with using your timeshare. And your version is probably true for a lot of people but it's not true for everyone. Maybe not even most of them. You say it doesn't save you money because you go on more vacations to use your timeshare, thus actually spending more money than you would have. HOWEVER, if you buy DVC and use it exactly the same way you previously vacationed at Disney, you probably will save money. If you have to vacation more to use your DVC, you overbought plain and simple.

MY personal experience is that I'm not saving money but I am staying at a nicer place for the same money I was spending. I don't save money because I bought in at BCV during a high so my long term ppp is high due to short contract. But I am able to stay at BCV for roughly the same price I was paying to stay at Pop Century at rack rate (I haven't gotten a discount in years there for my dates). If I had bought cheaper points with a longer contract I would absolutely be saving money. I am a spreadsheet nerd and I make a very thorough one for every trip. I know exactly what my cost breakdown is. For my trip 2 weeks ago, my lodging costs were around $200 more than the rack rate at Pop for that same week. $200 is close enough for me and worth it to "upgrade" from Pop. (Probably it was only higher because I had 4 nights at BLT Lake View thus spending more points than I would have at BCV. I have been going to WDW once a year for 20 years. I continue to go once a year. As long as rack rates continue to rise along with dues, I will continue to "break even". Sure if Disney offers some scandalous discount on cash rooms, I might not come out ahead. But hey, I can always take the scandalous deal, and bank or rent my points. LOL

I've been running different scenarios and numbers to try to figure out if we'd need to go on more trips than we normally would for it to be worthwhile. And like you...I've come to the conclusion that after a certain amount of years/trips (that I would be taking anyway)....I can definitely break even for what I would be paying to stay off-site at DLR. And even if I did end up paying a little more, it's worth it because the hotel is nicer than off-site. The main difference is that I'd be paying a big chunk of money upfront instead of over the course of 15 years or so.
 
HOWEVER, if you buy DVC and use it exactly the same way you previously vacationed at Disney, you probably will save money.
100% correct. And a lot of people say this is what they do. Some of them might even be right.

But all of those comparisons assume you would be taking exactly the same number of trips, at the same frequency, and for the same duration. And I suppose there are a few people for whom that's actually true. But I've talked to a lot of people who own timeshares---at Disney and elsewhere---and just about all of them have had at least one of those "well, we may as well go (or book the larger unit, or or or) before the weeks/points expire" trips. Next time you are around the hot tub, see how many long-term DVC owners (10+ years) tell you their vacation habits haven't changed at all once they became owners.

There won't be very many. That's because for most people, owning an expiring asset that can only be used for vacations changes the way they think about vacations---and probably in ways they didn't expect, can't articulate, and don't consciously appreciate.*

Many of those people would travel less (and/or less luxuriously) if they didn't own, and those trips would end up costing less. Are there exceptions to this? Are there people who genuinely are only taking exactly the same trips they would have, and end up spending less? Assuredly! But, by definition, most people are not exceptions.

[There's also the matter of what things actually cost, and my accountant would tell you most people get this wrong for timeshares because they don't account for the up-front cost properly, but that's a different problem.]

This is sort of like how the Dining Plan worked. Yes, if I would have ordered the most expensive thing and the full allotment of courses at every single meal, I'd "save" money. And again, there might have been a few people for whom that was true. But, when left to my own devices, I just don't eat that way--and not because I am trying to pinch pennies, but just because I don't want to.

It is also worth noting that none of these things are bad. Taking more and/or nicer vacations is great, even if you spend a little more than you would have in the alternate universe in which you never owned timeshare, because timeshare bounds the costs. Heck, most people in the US absolutely should be taking more and better vacations, because we are giving ourselves short shrift. I once had to tell a staff member at my organization that one of their performance goals for the next year was to stop letting vacation days expire. The stretch goal was to reduce the backlog.

But, usually when someone is working really hard to justify a purchase like this by "saving money," it's really because they are trying to talk themselves in to a purchase that, for one reason or another, they think they shouldn't make/don't deserve/what-have-you. Perhaps my biggest point in all this is: You don't have to do that. If you have the discretionary resources for it, and you want it, just buy it and enjoy it and don't worry about the "savings." Money is for spending, and "discretionary" means "you can do what you want with it".

----------
*: I admit that I'm a bit of a radical on this point. But, the last 20-30 years worth of "decision science" (which sits at the intersection of psychology, economics, and philosophy) has given some pretty good evidence that (a) no one is ever purely rational, (b) emotions play a much larger role in decision making than we think and (c) it's hard (if not impossible) to consciously be aware of how that happens.
 

The main difference is that I'd be paying a big chunk of money upfront instead of over the course of 15 years or so.
That is really the crux of it right there, if you don't change your vacation style.
If you can pay the contract price up front without financing, then your yearly obligation is just your dues. You can figure your total buy in PPP (include your closing costs and fees) and then each year add your dues PPP and you'll have your vacation cost for that year. I feel like doing it this way is a truer cost per vacation than the people who figure it by saying "Okay I paid $15k and I usually pay $3k for lodging so in 5 trips I break even" or whatever because it's not really that straightforward.
 
100% correct. And a lot of people say this is what they do. Some of them might even be right.

But all of those comparisons assume you would be taking exactly the same number of trips, at the same frequency, and for the same duration. And I suppose there are a few people for whom that's actually true. But I've talked to a lot of people who own timeshares---at Disney and elsewhere---and just about all of them have had at least one of those "well, we may as well go (or book the larger unit, or or or) before the weeks/points expire" trips. Next time you are around the hot tub, see how many long-term DVC owners (10+ years) tell you their vacation habits haven't changed at all once they became owners.
But see, if you didn't buy too many points there isn't a need to "go again before the points expire". If you bought what you need for your regular vacation habit, whatever it might be, you use it all*. If I need 120 points for my trip I take every year, I buy a 125 point contract for padding and that's it. I take my yearly trip. I can't take extra DVC trips because I'm out of points. Now if I add on more points for more trips, that's a separate conscious choice and unrelated to the original buy-in. Just as deciding to take 2 cash trips a year instead of 1 is a separate choice.

And I know for sure, addon-itis is definitely a real thing but it's still a separate beast. LOL I'm currently in the process of adding on - not to take more than my one trip a year but to get a bigger room now that our son is grown. We're hopeful that there will be a companion he wants to bring along in the future. But again, this is no different than I would do with cash rooms where I would be paying more for a suite or 2 connecting rooms. My "cost" should still be a comparative wash.


*footnote because yes in the DVC, points could shift a bit and cost you a handful more or a handful less but it's close enough.
 
Even then, it's not certain. A guest who keeps coming back for cash is more likely to find a reason to skip a year than one who owns points. Or the guest who has to skip a year---for health reasons, for family, for whatever reason---now has to bank those points forward and "use them up."

And that's before add-on-itis strikes.

Again: This is not a bad thing. It's a great thing! But it's a thing.

Edited to add: And there are some people who can predict their future vacation habits accurately, and do only that. If someone wants to be (or believes they are) one of those people, who am I to stop them?
 
But cash price should be a floor. The saying they go to zero value is a sloppy way of saying the contract ends. But they all end. As long as the contract is valid, it is still a room and has some value based on Rack rates.

In the final year the points are still worth ~$16 in todays dollars.

They are still the most expensive points based on that 2042 expiration, balanced somewhat with points charts, but they are not unique in that they end.

With 18 yrs left, it will be a while before they get to $16 pp. Heck it could be a $5 per year drop for the next 2 decades. Not a sudden dive.
The x-factor you are forgetting about is dues prices though. Vero Beach, for example, appears to be on a path to become effectively worthless well before the contract expires. And by “worthless” I mean you won’t be able to sell it, you’ll have to try to give it away like all fo the other “worthless” timeshares out there that have very high dues. If the annual dues start to far exceed the rental rate of the points, and especially if the annual dues start to exceed the rack rates, then it goes to zero.
 
At the right price buying a 2042 resort now and then buying a 2060+ resort could work for a lot of people
It's like you were looking at my Signature pictures lol. With current prices, we feel "comfortable" covering both now.
 
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Even then, it's not certain. A guest who keeps coming back for cash is more likely to find a reason to skip a year than one who owns points. Or the guest who has to skip a year---for health reasons, for family, for whatever reason---now has to bank those points forward and "use them up."

And that's before add-on-itis strikes.

Again: This is not a bad thing. It's a great thing! But it's a thing.

Edited to add: And there are some people who can predict their future vacation habits accurately, and do only that. If someone wants to be (or believes they are) one of those people, who am I to stop them?
I absolutely bought with the intention of forcing more vacations for me and my wife.

And if that does not happen I at least provided a subsidized vacation for my daughter and granddaughter for years to come
 
The x-factor you are forgetting about is dues prices though. Vero Beach, for example, appears to be on a path to become effectively worthless well before the contract expires. And by “worthless” I mean you won’t be able to sell it, you’ll have to try to give it away like all fo the other “worthless” timeshares out there that have very high dues. If the annual dues start to far exceed the rental rate of the points, and especially if the annual dues start to exceed the rack rates, then it goes to zero.
Yes if BWV and BCV maintence fees double and rental rates stay exactly the same over the next 18 yrs, it will be worthless.

I don’t think that is a likely scenario, but you might.

I’ve never been to VB. I don’t consider it part of the WDW “bubble”. It has more similar properties nearby with the same attraction value and therefore different market dynamics.
 
Yes if BWV and BCV maintence fees double and rental rates stay exactly the same over the next 18 yrs, it will be worthless.

I don’t think that is a likely scenario, but you might.

I’ve never been to VB. I don’t consider it part of the WDW “bubble”. It has more similar properties nearby with the same attraction value and therefore different market dynamics.
I don’t think BWV or BCV are going to zero before contract expiration. I think VB & HH probably are. OKW… maybe.
 
That is really the crux of it right there, if you don't change your vacation style.
If you can pay the contract price up front without financing, then your yearly obligation is just your dues. You can figure your total buy in PPP (include your closing costs and fees) and then each year add your dues PPP and you'll have your vacation cost for that year. I feel like doing it this way is a truer cost per vacation than the people who figure it by saying "Okay I paid $15k and I usually pay $3k for lodging so in 5 trips I break even" or whatever because it's not really that straightforward.

Yeah...I sat down and figured out the total cost of the contract (just an estimate, however.) Then I looked at the current yearly fees and multiplied that (well, I actually chose a larger amount since they will go up in the future) by a set amount of years. Then I divided all of that by the amount of trips we would take (at the very least) over that many years. Then I basically looked at what we pay at our offsite hotel and again, increased it since I know that price will change too. I just compared the same amount of trips and it wasn't as different as I had expected it to be. So depending upon what kind of contract we could find, I feel it would be worth it for our family since we really loved the on-site experience. And if we end up taking more vacations than we thought...I'm fine with that too because I was actually estimating less trips anyway. I would hope that if we were to change our minds or want to sell down the road we could and if we get even a little money back, that would be cool. But I'd never plan on it, by any means. I look at it in a similar way I did when we purchased our camper. If we decide want to want to sell it and get some money back, it's a bonus. But I would never look at a camper (or timeshare) as an investment or anything.
 
(snip.)

[There's also the matter of what things actually cost, and my accountant would tell you most people get this wrong for timeshares because they don't account for the up-front cost properly, but that's a different problem.]

Can you enlighten me on this since we haven't purchased DVC at this point. I want to make sure I'm not super off-base with my estimations.
 
I think MouseSavers has a good approach, and it includes a spreadsheet with the details.,

https://www.mousesavers.com/other-disney-vacations/disney-vacation-club/#opportunity

[But as I said upthread, maybe it's not necessary.]

Thanks. I've thought about the investing it aspect as well.

Though I feel like since we're looking at VGC, it's just a bit different than looking at WDW resorts. It definitely costs a lot more than the WDW resorts but it's also harder to get without being an owner. And the rack rate on the hotel side is nuts to me.
 
Thanks. I've thought about the investing it aspect as well.

Though I feel like since we're looking at VGC, it's just a bit different than looking at WDW resorts. It definitely costs a lot more than the WDW resorts but it's also harder to get without being an owner. And the rack rate on the hotel side is nuts to me.

One thing that always seems to get overlooked when people recommend investing instead of DVC is the income tax on the investment. Everyone's situation is different but taxes can eat up a healthy share of the investment income you intend to apply towards vacations.
 
One thing that always seems to get overlooked when people recommend investing instead of DVC is the income tax on the investment. Everyone's situation is different but taxes can eat up a healthy share of the investment income you intend to apply towards vacations.
Also the WDW hotel price increases tend to outpace DVC dues increases.

By Florida law, maintenance fees can only increase by the actual cost of maintenance. Disney hotels have no such limit.

When you purchase a DVC at today's prices, you are locking in a portion of your room at today's prices. With a hotel room, the price of the entire room increases.

I've created spreadsheets to take into account all factors I can think of, including those on the Touring Plans DVC analysis page.

If you are someone who really wants to go to WDW for many years to come, DVC truly does save. But DVC really is only for those with a strong desire to go to WDW every year or two. It's not for most.
 
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