Where do you stand on this?

[Turn the Page]

One other thing about this whole story kind of bothers me.

The mom claims the child refused to eat any food that wasn't steaming hot. She would refuse all cold and room temperature foods. She mom cites this as evidence that the hot first class meal was needed. But she also cites the snacks they brought as evidence of how they did everything they could to avert a meltdown themselves. If you know your child will refuse any food that isn't steaming why are you using the fact that you brought room temperature snacks as evidence that you tried your best? You knew that wouldn't work. Either that or having hot food isn't a need so much as her child just didn't want those particular snacks at that particular time.

I have the urge to ask the mom "which is it? That she will refuse all food that isn't hot or that she normally likes the snacks you brought and just didn't want them at that time?"

 

[barkley]

My opinion on this is that flight attendants and pilots need to have full authority to land and remove any passenger they feel could be a threat from a plane. It doesn't matter if that person is disabled or not.

The mothers statement that the girl could have a meltdown and start scratching people if she didn't get her way would have been enough for me to make the same decision. In a situation like that where there is no way to separate people if there is an incident you don't wait for something to actually happen before you remove the problem.

As for if the same thing would have happened with a much younger child... honestly if the parent seemed so unwilling to control their child as the mother did in this case then I would think yes the same thing would have happened. The expectation is generally although a 3 yeard old is much more likely to have a meltdown is that they can be controlled forcibly if necessary and won't be able to hurt anyone. An irrational 15 year old in full meltdown mode however could seriously injure a good number of people very quickly on a plane.

I personally don't want to be subjected to being in proximity to anyone-despite their age or size who is prone/known to have meltdowns that can potentially cause physical harm to others. I say this as the mom of an 18 year old asd male who has learned through therapies to minimize/control his meltdowns such that they no longer endanger himself/others, HOWEVER-the little twit managed to break my nose twice with his head in 6 months when he was 2 or 3.

 

[cabanafrau]

I personally don't want to be subjected to being in proximity to anyone-despite their age or size who is prone/known to have meltdowns that can potentially cause physical harm to others. I say this as the mom of an 18 year old asd male who has learned through therapies to minimize/control his meltdowns such that they no longer endanger himself/others, HOWEVER-the little twit managed to break my nose twice with his head in 6 months when he was 2 or 3.

Ouch! I bet you have sympathy pains when cartoons depict a character seeing stars or birds twittering around their head after being conked on the head.

 

[Aladora]

Yes, her entire description of her interaction with the police seems. .. off.. I guess is the best word to use. She say that when they told her she had to deplane she did not and instead shouted to the plane asking questions about the situation and then told the officers she would not leave until they took reports from all the passengers and writes as if the police totally supported her in this behaviour--which does not feel quite right to me, you know?

I am referring to this section of the facebook post from the mother:

"
The officer asked us again to quietly exit the plane. I was furious. I stood and shouted so the passengers could hear. "Is there anyone on this plane who feels threatened by our Juliette who faces autism? Has Juliette alarmed or harmed anyone on this plane? Passengers stood up for Juliette and shouted, "She is fine," "Leave her alone." "She is not causing a problem lets go to Portland." "This is ridiculous," and mouthed to me "I am so sorry."

The police repeated that we needed to leave the plane. The captain came out and we saw him for the first time. He said, "Let's not make this situation worse. I said, "You made it worse. You never even saw Juliette and I have no idea what your flight attendant told you but nothing happened." I was so shaken and tears begin to fall. As mom I could not stand the way Juliette was being treated. I said I am not leaving the plane until I have statements and names showing there was NO issue. The officer said he would take statements. He came off the plane with 10 pages of passenger statements and showed them to me. He said, "You know we have some really violent cases where the plane should land. This is not one of those. You have a lot of people supporting your claim that nothing happened and your daughter should stay on the plane." He gave me the police report number and told me I can get copies of the report and the statements."

Here's the problem with what she posted on Facebook about what happened...there is a very clear video and at no point in the video does she stand up and shout anything. A few people come over to where the family is sitting and there is a quiet discussion, so quiet that there is no audio of it in the video which was filmed from a couple of rows away. The family gets up and leaves. No shouting, nothing.

 

[gwynne]

Here's the problem with what she posted on Facebook about what happened...there is a very clear video and at no point in the video does she stand up and shout anything. A few people come over to where the family is sitting and there is a quiet discussion, so quiet that there is no audio of it in the video which was filmed from a couple of rows away. The family gets up and leaves. No shouting, nothing.

Exactly.
The video clearly does not show Mom standing up and shouting. I would think United has her various statements and the video, and their attorneys will be happy to carefully compare the two.

And I am really unimpressed with her (impassioned imaginary?) FB speech anyway. She thinks putting this stuff in print will "sway" folks to her side? All of life isn't a Facebook post. Real life is different, especially on an aircraft. The passengers don't get to tell the FA's what to do, and what will happen if the FA doesn't comply.
But, if a passenger decides to do just that, they risk being led off the plane. Which is what happened.

JMO, I think she will regret being so specific on what she believes the officer told her. I would bet the officer's version is quite different. Once again, that is likely to be a big plus for United.

 

[SMD]

There seems to be a disconnect with the mother (maybe the whole family, but she's the spokesperson) as to what the options were once they landed. The paramedics and police weren't there for any reason other than to assess what would be required to get them off the plane. She had zero chance to negotiate the ability to continue on the flight at that point. They were not there to determine the fairness of the decision to land, they were there for the interests of first the airline and crew, second the other passengers and third for her family's safety while being removed. Likewise, if the plane was already diverting before the jambalaya was served it didn't matter that the daughter was calm at the point, the landing was already going to happen.

 

[kamik86]

I personally don't want to be subjected to being in proximity to anyone-despite their age or size who is prone/known to have meltdowns that can potentially cause physical harm to others. I say this as the mom of an 18 year old asd male who has learned through therapies to minimize/control his meltdowns such that they no longer endanger himself/others, HOWEVER-the little twit managed to break my nose twice with his head in 6 months when he was 2 or 3.

I guess my point is more that a 3year old in full meltdown is unlikely to manage to hurt anyone not related to them. a 15 year old in full meltdown has a pretty good shot at doing just that.

 

[NHdisneylover]

Here's the problem with what she posted on Facebook about what happened...there is a very clear video and at no point in the video does she stand up and shout anything. A few people come over to where the family is sitting and there is a quiet discussion, so quiet that there is no audio of it in the video which was filmed from a couple of rows away. The family gets up and leaves. No shouting, nothing.

Right. This jsut makes every other statement by the mother that much less reliable in my opinion.

 

[cabanafrau]

I guess my point is more that a 3year old in full meltdown is unlikely to manage to hurt anyone not related to them. a 15 year old in full meltdown has a pretty good shot at doing just that.

I agree with you, but I could foresee a situation with a toddler having issues and managing to elude the parent en route to the potty or to have a diaper change, pulling out of the parent's grasp, making a break for it down the aisle and ultimately stopping to chomp down in a rage on the arm of an unsuspecting passenger who is reading, watching a movie or sleeping in their seat with their arm on the arm rest.

I've personally known of at least a couple of kids who were like this as toddlers. Witnessed an incident on a playground years ago where a little boy lost it when he was told they needed to head home and he decided to sprint up the play structure and gave another kid up there a nasty bite because he was so angry at the thought of going home. He broke the skin. It was a pretty ugly scene.

Now we're all going to be keeping an eye on the movements of every toddler on our flights from here on out, aren't we?

 

[kamik86]

I agree with you, but I could foresee a situation with a toddler having issues and managing to elude the parent en route to the potty or to have a diaper change, pulling out of the parent's grasp, making a break for it down the aisle and ultimately stopping to chomp down in a rage on the arm of an unsuspecting passenger who is reading, watching a movie or sleeping in their seat with their arm on the arm rest.

I've personally known of at least a couple of kids who were like this as toddlers. Witnessed an incident on a playground years ago where a little boy lost it when he was told they needed to head home and he decided to sprint up the play structure and gave another kid up there a nasty bite because he was so angry at the thought of going home. He broke the skin. It was a pretty ugly scene.

Now we're all going to be keeping an eye on the movements of every toddler on our flights from here on out, aren't we?

Well in all fairness there is also a difference in that in this case mom said she was likely to have a melt down and start scratching people.

Any adult on the plane has the potential to be a crazy psycho who will start hurting people. However if one of them states they are going to start hurting people they probably should be removed.

 

[Aladora]

Now we're all going to be keeping an eye on the movements of every toddler on our flights from here on out, aren't we?

I've had a toddler...I *always* keep an eye on the movements of toddlers. Quick little buggers.

 

[cabanafrau]

Well in all fairness there is also a difference in that in this case mom said she was likely to have a melt down and start scratching people.

Any adult on the plane has the potential to be a crazy psycho who will start hurting people. However if one of them states they are going to start hurting people they probably should be removed.

The scenario with the toddler could be exactly the same as the one being discussed in this thread. I agree overall the toddler will have much less opportunity to physically impact a stranger. My point was simply that the toddler could reasonably have opportunity and do some actual harm. Unlikely but possible, and theoretically could call for a flight diversion to prevent it. Can you imagine the uproar over a toddler?

I've had a toddler...I *always* keep an eye on the movements of toddlers. Quick little buggers.

I've BTDT. We have a classic family story about an infamous visit to the zoo with our oldest. She despised the stroller so we held her by the hand. She managed to pull free from both of us, sprinted like an Olympian -- and then had the chutzpah to yell out "ow, my boo boo!" with the power of a trained opera singer just as we caught up to her. It was only the first fabulous Sunday afternoon of spring, so we only got what seemed like several hundred dirty looks. It's funny. Now.

 

[JanaDee]

There seems to be a disconnect with the mother (maybe the whole family, but she's the spokesperson) as to what the options were once they landed. The paramedics and police weren't there for any reason other than to assess what would be required to get them off the plane. She had zero chance to negotiate the ability to continue on the flight at that point. They were not there to determine the fairness of the decision to land, they were there for the interests of first the airline and crew, second the other passengers and third for her family's safety while being removed. Likewise, if the plane was already diverting before the jambalaya was served it didn't matter that the daughter was calm at the point, the landing was already going to happen.

That is what makes me chuckle. Like she had a choice at that point whether she was getting off the plane or not.

 

[kamik86]

The scenario with the toddler could be exactly the same as the one being discussed in this thread. I agree overall the toddler will have much less opportunity to physically impact a stranger. My point was simply that the toddler could reasonably have opportunity and do some actual harm. Unlikely but possible, and theoretically could call for a flight diversion to prevent it. Can you imagine the uproar over a toddler?

If a toddler is in danger of injuring others they should be removed as well. The pilot should have the same authority to make that call, even for a toddler. I remember at least one flight where a pilot removed a mom and toddler because she couldn't/wouldn't make the toddler sit with their seat belt on. In this case the plane hadn't yet left the ground though.

 

[cabanafrau]

If a toddler is in danger of injuring others they should be removed as well. The pilot should have the same authority to make that call, even for a toddler. I remember at least one flight where a pilot removed a mom and toddler because she couldn't/wouldn't make the toddler sit with their seat belt on. In this case the plane hadn't yet left the ground though.

Talk about having a classic family story.

 

[DVC-Don]

Looks to me the mom was spoiling for a fight and provoked one.

 

[SueM in MN]

Exactly.
The video clearly does not show Mom standing up and shouting. I would think United has her various statements and the video, and their attorneys will be happy to carefully compare the two.

And I am really unimpressed with her (impassioned imaginary?) FB speech anyway. She thinks putting this stuff in print will "sway" folks to her side? All of life isn't a Facebook post. Real life is different, especially on an aircraft. The passengers don't get to tell the FA's what to do, and what will happen if the FA doesn't comply.
But, if a passenger decides to do just that, they risk being led off the plane. Which is what happened.

JMO, I think she will regret being so specific on what she believes the officer told her. I would bet the officer's version is quite different. Once again, that is likely to be a big plus for United.

I also don't see anything in the video that supports that claim.

BUT, if she actually did do it, IMHO, that would be worse than anything she accused the airline of doing.
She says they didn't treat her child as a person, but of something to be afraid of.

But, she thinks it's AOK for HER to draw attention to her child and yell at the other people regarding whether they fear her daughter.
That is wrong on so many levels. She is supposed to protect her daughter, not hold her up for negative notice.
If her daughter is highly intelligent and high functioning as the mom says, does she think her daughter can't hear, see or understand?
IMHO, that's the saddest part of the story.

 

[sasywtch]

As far as the ADA v. special accommodations, yes they are separate things in a sense, however the ADA is also the legal source that requires accommodations under certain circumstances, which it sounds like where your role comes in. For instance a defendant in a court of law must receive accommodations as necessary to allow that person to participate in their legal defense. Those accommodations aren't necessarily all spelled out to the letter in a specific article or section of the act, but the framework is there to insure defendants receive due process under the law.

I think what I was referring to is the fact that since it's something above and beyond what anyone else may get, I can ask for medical documentation. It was late, I was tired I changed gears from working with the state to the county sheriff years ago (and then back). I knew some of the officers perm stationed at the airport and can't imagine them saying anything negative about the pilot's decision. I can however, see them telling the woman the statements say your daughter was ok and here's the report number, pick it up in x number of days. This isn't making a judgement, just stating facts. What the woman doesn't get is, yes her daughter was ok, it was HER. The passengers probably didn't hear that interaction with the flight attendants. She'll get money and that ticks me off.

 

[cabanafrau]

I don't see anything for this family to stand on in court and be granted a judgment. I do see where incidents like this could result in provisions being put in place where airlines could recoup costs incurred by the actions of unruly passengers, making it more restrictive and cumbersome for everyone to fly.

 

[ronandannette]

The mom bringing food to heat up was discussed many times on pages 1, 2, 3, 4.... It's fine if you didn't read the entire thread, but it's not cool to imply I'm lying because of it.

Yes, many people suggested they should have brought something. Why? Because that is absolutely the most logical and sensible thing a parent should have done. This child's needs (disability aside) were obviously very clearly understood by her mother and easily anticipated, to the point that they knew an incident was possible when she refused the meal on the layover. This was not a surprise nor did it have to become an emergency save only for the parents negligence (yes, I said negligence) in failing to prepare.

And I will not accept any assertion that I lack either compassion or depth of understanding regarding a situation like this after having spent my entire adult life sharing guardianship of a profoundly cognitively-impaired sibling. Although by the grace of God it never came to that, we certainly would have seen him institutionalized or at least cloistered away at home before we would have ever allowed him to become a physical danger to himself or anyone else.