when will resale market decline

[DisKneeDad]

This came straight from a guide at Disney to my email.... I had emailed this person and he told me he had no idea if they would be building the poly because I thought about waiting for it... Then just decided to go resale and save money...So this person was trying to scare me into a direct purchase but I had already made my mind up and signed papers for a resale contract at AKV.....



Hi,

I am checking in with you because your mother emailed me and said that you are buying a resale? And last month you said you wanted to wait and see if we will build at the Poly? So I am confused…

I am sure you already know if you buy a resale you can’t use the Disney Cruise Line or Disney Hotels like the Poly or the hotels in Paris, Tokyo etc…and you can’t use Adventures by Disney.

But…In the future we could also impose more restrictions on the resales like, limiting the points to ONLY to the resort they are deeded…changing the booking window of 7 to 11 months to anything we feel necessary. Currently we are working to restrict the use of your points at your Home Resort ONLY….These restrictions are NOT currently in place…but to recap, the following are:

Resales can NOT use the points:
* for Disney Cruise Line.
* for Disney Hotels like the Grand Floridian or Polynesian etc.
* for Disney Hotels worldwide like Disneyland in California, Paris, Tokyo, Hong Kong.
* for Adventures by Disney like the planned itinerary trips in Costa Rica.
* for the Concierge Collection
(the high end hotels like The Lowe’s Regency in NYC or Sagamore on Lake George in NY etc)

The Disney Cruise Line (DCL) is the really big deal...if you ever have to pay CASH for even ONE CRUISE it is not worth buying a resale. The cost of the one cruise absorbs MORE than any cost saving of buying a resale. I only recommend buying a resale to people that plan on ONLY VACATIONING AT WDW for the rest of their lives and never going anywhere else ever (and that means your kids, grandkids etc...) Most people are concerned if they leave this membership to kids or relatives that they won’t be able to use the DCL in the future.

If you pay cash for one cruise it will absorb ANY cash savings from a resale not to mention in the future your kids will have these limitations. They will care less that you paid less for a resale and now you will actually pay more in the future because you will be paying cash for a cruise? Have you thought about those things?

Wow. I would be incredibly offended by that email. I have never done a DVC tour. Are the salesman really that bad?

 

[Dean]

This came straight from a guide at Disney to my email.... I had emailed this person and he told me he had no idea if they would be building the poly because I thought about waiting for it... Then just decided to go resale and save money...So this person was trying to scare me into a direct purchase but I had already made my mind up and signed papers for a resale contract at AKV.....



Hi,

I am checking in with you because your mother emailed me and said that you are buying a resale? And last month you said you wanted to wait and see if we will build at the Poly? So I am confused…

I am sure you already know if you buy a resale you can’t use the Disney Cruise Line or Disney Hotels like the Poly or the hotels in Paris, Tokyo etc…and you can’t use Adventures by Disney.

But…In the future we could also impose more restrictions on the resales like, limiting the points to ONLY to the resort they are deeded…changing the booking window of 7 to 11 months to anything we feel necessary. Currently we are working to restrict the use of your points at your Home Resort ONLY….These restrictions are NOT currently in place…but to recap, the following are:

Resales can NOT use the points:
* for Disney Cruise Line.
* for Disney Hotels like the Grand Floridian or Polynesian etc.
* for Disney Hotels worldwide like Disneyland in California, Paris, Tokyo, Hong Kong.
* for Adventures by Disney like the planned itinerary trips in Costa Rica.
* for the Concierge Collection
(the high end hotels like The Lowe’s Regency in NYC or Sagamore on Lake George in NY etc)

The Disney Cruise Line (DCL) is the really big deal...if you ever have to pay CASH for even ONE CRUISE it is not worth buying a resale. The cost of the one cruise absorbs MORE than any cost saving of buying a resale. I only recommend buying a resale to people that plan on ONLY VACATIONING AT WDW for the rest of their lives and never going anywhere else ever (and that means your kids, grandkids etc...) Most people are concerned if they leave this membership to kids or relatives that they won’t be able to use the DCL in the future.

If you pay cash for one cruise it will absorb ANY cash savings from a resale not to mention in the future your kids will have these limitations. They will care less that you paid less for a resale and now you will actually pay more in the future because you will be paying cash for a cruise? Have you thought about those things?

You know how to tell if a timeshare salesperson's lying.....his lips are moving. This may not apply as well to DVC CM in general but it sure does in this case. They are taking truth's and half truth's and exaggerating dramatically (basically lying) to try to scare you into buying retail. I'd say either the guide thought you were an idiot or they were for the statements about reserving DCL on cash compared to buying retail with more points to use for the cruise. I'm surprised they were willing to put it in writing. I bet you could get them in quite some hot water if you passed it on. I know DVD monitors this and unless the guide sent it from a personal account, they can pinpoint it down themselves.

 

[Dean]

Wow. I would be incredibly offended by that email. I have never done a DVC tour. Are the salesman really that bad?

As a rule they are actually very good but there have been reports over the years and it seems more issues the last 3-4 years, predictably IMO.

 

[DisKneeDad]

As a rule they are actually very good but there have been reports over the years and it seems more issues the last 3-4 years, predictably IMO.

Thanks. I really can't get over the tone of that email. I can't imagine that that tactic works on anyone. I can't see how anyone wouldn't be turned off by that.

 

[Dean]

Thanks. I really can't get over the tone of that email. I can't imagine that that tactic works on anyone. I can't see how anyone wouldn't be turned off by that.

There seems to be a trend in the timeshare sales world to ridicule and belittle those that chose not to buy. I've searched for a reason or explanation and haven't come up with much. I've asked this question of quite a number higher level sales staff (non DVC but several companies) including fairly high up the ladder and no one seems to have an answer or at least not one they're willing to share. IMO it happens consistently enough that there has to be more of an explanation than simply rogue sales staff. The only explanations I can come up with otherwise is that it's an underground plan by the staff to weed out those that are clearly not going to buy to improve their chances later on a given tour. This is pure speculation on my part but the only other explanation that makes sense is that these are simply egotistical people with a personality disorder, that seems to be the consensus when I've discussed with those that should be in the know and would certainly fit with the industry.

Remember DVC is set up a little different on sales than most. As a rule companies use ASA's or OPC's (Advanced Sales Assoc or Off Premises Contacts) who are paid on some type of commission basis. They get paid based on getting you to tour while the salesperson gets paid by getting you to buy. DVC's system is not nearly as aggressive but the same principles apply.

 

[tlh]

This person was very nice during the tour we took a few years back on vacation, but I was in college and my mom was not sure if the government was going to close her workplace due to all the budget cuts. I was the one who wanted to go learn about it, and so I scheduled a meeting (it also helped we got free fast passes too for going think TSM lol). Well we didn't buy, and everything was fine. Mom thought about buying, but I told her not to because of the financials. But any who he called or emailed every six months or so, and I contacted this person about three or four months before decided to buy resale about a small contract. I told him I was deciding to wait because I heard rumors about poly possibly being added. He told me if I knew they were adding poly I knew more than him. After that I decided to do resell after reading the boards. Best financial decision for me. Spent 11000 on 150 points at AKV.

 

[supersnoop]

I'd forward that email to the DVC board of directors and whatever Florida agency handles consumer protection. That's outright fraud.

 

[crisi]

Small contracts have almost always gone for a premium and have almost always been in high demand - unless the economy goes through another crash, I wouldn't count on getting a significantly better deal by waiting within the next year. If you are looking for a larger contract, there will be more room for price fluctuations - small contracts are rare and move fast. (Small being 100 points or less - the smaller the contract, the less difference you'll see).

 

[Minniesgal]

I have never had a DVC salesperson lie to me like that

 

[Carlnne]

I love DVC but I am not impressed with the DVC salespeople. That letter was offensive and I would definitely forward that to someone. Salespeople should not have to lie and deceive to sell a good product.

 

[cubsblue]

Must be the same sales guy we had a few years back. He is 80% of the reason we did not buy direct. When I told him we had to think about it he turned into a jerk. That was the end of it for me.

 

[MsTessP]

My jaw is still hanging open! This letter in writing (along with the blatant lies) basically said "Your future children and grandchildren will know what a lousy person you are and you will be ruining their lives if you are stupid enough to buy resale! Have you thought about those things!?"
<<If you pay cash for one cruise it will absorb ANY cash savings from a resale not to mention in the future your kids will have these limitations. They will care less that you paid less for a resale and now you will actually pay more in the future because you will be paying cash for a cruise? Have you thought about those things?>>

 

[eileenkeeney]

They can change the times but I do not believe they can make them different for different owners for current club resorts.

Why do you not believe they can do this?

Did you believe that they could restrict other benefits from only a subset of owners before it happened?

Why were they legally allowed to do this? I thought it was because these were benefits that were not guaranteed anyway.

They could possibly, maybe back into a VIP system but this would affect all owners potentially and not just qualified vs non qualified. The ways these type of contracts work is there has to be wording that allows it rather than wording that prevents it and I do not see an option that allows differentiation within the contractual areas for current resorts. I haven't looked at VGC or VGF paperwork to be sure there are no differences.

I believe the division for current resorts to be between contractual issues vs other. They have made no changes in contractual issues and I don't believe they can. [/quote]

Don't our contracts cover booking non DVC resorts, and state that this benefit can change or be removed?
I don't know where my contract is right now, and I don't remember all the details.

Are you saying that what has so far been changed, is not even mentioned in the contract, as opposed to being mentioned with an indication it can be changed?

They have no obligation to support resale prices and from a business standpoint likely should do whatever they can to push people to retail by making changes that reduce the value of resale points.

Of course they have no obligation to support resale prices.
It is less about supporting resale prices than it is about not forcing the value of the contract to go down if transferred, if the devaluing upon transfer was not stated in the original contract.
I do not believe there is anything in my contract indicating that if bought resale it comes with a different tier of DVC membership privileges.


Now what about contracts that DVC gets via ROFR. Why does DVC get to reinstate direct buy status for the person they then sell these contracts to?
Shouldn't these points keep their "resale" status, even if DVC now owns them?

 

[eileenkeeney]

They already have multiple grades of unqualified points...one class of resale has no restrictions while another class has restrictions. I'm not saying they can't retroactively put restrictions but it makes no sense to do so from a business perspective. Why anger those that already bought...better to direct traffic to direct sales for future customers and keep the current ones happy.

The larger the group of people effected, the more likely someone will try to file a lawsuit, and the more negative fallout.

Also, at least those who are in the restricted member tier bought knowing this would be the case. It was those selling at that time most negatively effected, assuming these restrictions really had any impact on resale prices. But those buying knew they were buying restricted points.

 

[Dean]

Why do you not believe they can do this?

Did you believe that they could restrict other benefits from only a subset of owners before it happened?

Why were they legally allowed to do this? I thought it was because these were benefits that were not guaranteed anyway.

The reason I don't feel they can do it legally, other than possibly with a VIP system which would affect everyone, is based on my reading of the POS and related documents. I see the home resort times as a contractual protection. A little background on me, while I'm not a lawyer, I have a broad and long timeshare exposure plus I spent 3 years working with the state of florida with one of the Boards/Councils creating the rules to go with a state statue creating a new profession overage. The lawyer consultant told us over and over again that for us to promulgate a rule, the had to be wording in the law that would allow it. And reminding us that if the statue did not speak to the area of discussion in some way, we could not move forward.

Yes, not only did I believe they could make other changes, I said so at times over the years before it happened and defended the possibility when it was simply a rumor and many said it couldn't happen. There are other restrictions that could happen as well and fees that could be added.

Don't our contracts cover booking non DVC resorts, and state that this benefit can change or be removed?
I don't know where my contract is right now, and I don't remember all the details.

Are you saying that what has so far been changed, is not even mentioned in the contract, as opposed to being mentioned with an indication it can be changed?

See above, I believe they can be changed, just not made different for different groups based on qualified vs non qualified status. The things that have changed are to only non contractual items that could all be stopped tomorrow.

Of course they have no obligation to support resale prices.
It is less about supporting resale prices than it is about not forcing the value of the contract to go down if transferred, if the devaluing upon transfer was not stated in the original contract.
I do not believe there is anything in my contract indicating that if bought resale it comes with a different tier of DVC membership privileges.

But many believe they have that obligation and have used that argument in this light, which is why I mentioned it. The perks in question are simply not covered in your POS and related legal documents.

Now what about contracts that DVC gets via ROFR. Why does DVC get to reinstate direct buy status for the person they then sell these contracts to?
Shouldn't these points keep their "resale" status, even if DVC now owns them?

Again, not applicable to the contract. They can also break them up or combine them, something they do have the contractual right to do because it's spelled out. However they can't change the contract itself related to those points separately and any changes would be governed by the current documents. While the contractual documents could be changed, as I read them, to make these type of changes would require a vote of the membership and I think it's a 60% approval requirement IIRC.

For sake of discussion lets consider if DVD had created a totally new and separate timeshare system with say VGF or the Poly. They could create an entire new set of rules and could build in such differences between qualified and non qualified if they so chose. They could also govern any crossover option and could limit the crossover availability to qualified points usage, a VIP status, etc. While they could use the points DVD owns to offer access to the current DVC villas based on the same rules you and I would be able to use them including 7/11 restrictions, they couldn't just stick them in the new system directly.

I own 3 other systems that have VIP programs AND some type of qualified/non qualified setup. Two of them created those system after I owned but because of my knowledge of such issues and risks ahead of time along with a little luck, I had positioned myself to not only be less affected but to actually come out with benefits due to the changes. DVC's changes definitely impacted both price and value and it was a negative to those who owned prior and would need to sell later and it reduces the residual value of those who buy now, esp if they buy retail. But they did a favor to new buyers because the things being limited are of no significant monetary value and for the most part, create an opportunity to actually lose money both on the transaction and by buying more points than would otherwise be needed.

 

[zavandor]

There seems to be a trend in the timeshare sales world to ridicule and belittle those that chose not to buy.

A possible explanation (just my humble guess): lower probability that that person might talk about their experience to others. People might be scared about how others might judge them because they purchased resale or decided not to buy.

 

[Dean]

A possible explanation (just my humble guess): lower probability that that person might talk about their experience to others. People might be scared about how others might judge them because they purchased resale or decided not to buy.

Personally I think they're more likely to talk about it just like any bad vs good customer service issue, just as in this thread. I guess it's possible that's part of the goal but if it were successful in getting people not to tour, they'd have less fresh meat, not more, because this would likely have more of an effect on a newbie over an experienced timeshare person. I think part of the problem is you've got two groups of sales people who generally are very good at what they do and their missions are somewhat in opposition. The ASA's goal and pay is determined on getting people in to tour while the salesperson's goal is simply to sell. IMO there are groups you could single out as less likely to buy and those more likely. They already single out groups that aren't allowed to tour based on when they bought (usually within 3 or 6 months), income requirements and having the spouse along among other things. As an amateur looking at their system from this side I'd think it in their best interest to simply blacklist those who clearly aren't going to buy and to developing working criteria of who to exclude. They certainly have all the data to do so. Given that they often offer significant incentives to tour (I've gotten as much as $200) and they continually offer this to those that to me are FAR less likely to buy than their general group, I must assume they still make money on that group compared to excluding them and having a more fertile tour group.

 

[tlh]

By the email I was just showing another side to the vacation guides. This person was great and always helpful when I needed it, but when I bought resale you could see the change in that person's tone just by reading the email. Really addressing my future kids like I would be depriving them??? I am buying DVC for me and have no plans for kids anytime soon. Heck my kids may hate it. I bought for myself and husband because we enjoy going, if and when we have kids we will take them if they like. Annnnnd if they get my DVC through inheritance they should consider that nice whether they keep it or sell it.

 

[Dean]

By the email I was just showing another side to the vacation guides. This person was great and always helpful when I needed it, but when I bought resale you could see the change in that person's tone just by reading the email. Really addressing my future kids like I would be depriving them??? I am buying DVC for me and have no plans for kids anytime soon. Heck my kids may hate it. I bought for myself and husband because we enjoy going, if and when we have kids we will take them if they like. Annnnnd if they get my DVC through inheritance they should consider that nice whether they keep it or sell it.

I know of many instances where they've ridiculed people while on the tour actually calling the husband a low life for not committing to long term vacations and similar rhetoric.

 

[ziravan]

Old posting but I was researching something and came across it. About this same time as the last post here, I was researching DVC and asked for a tour disc that came with a guide following up.

I asked him several questions and finally bought a resale contract in July last year.

When I emailed him that I had went resale, his reply was something like this, "Good luck, if you change your mind, or find yourself adding on in the future, let me know."

Less than a year later, March of this year, I dialed him up and bought a 168 point Poly contract.

If he had ridiculed me earlier, he would have lost that sale.