When to know to say No?

[Scrappy_Tink]

It’s sad to have to come to a message board for advise…but there is nobody else I can talk with that wouldn’t be biased one way or another (family).

History…I was a single mom for 10 years. My son’s father, whom I was married to for ten years, was an abusive alcoholic with no respect for women. The final straw for me, was when my 7 year old son started talking down to me with the same disrespect as his father. It finely hit me that if I didn’t get out, that neither of my sons would know the proper way to treat women, and would grow up to be abusive like their father.

Fast forward….ten years of temper tantrums from my now 20 year old son, ten years of counseling that just didn’t “take”, with diagnosis of ADD, ODD (Oppositional Defiance Disorder), depression, and possible Bi-Polar disorder. Ten years of replacing things he broke (never HIS things) in fits of temper, or damaged by calculated retaliation because I tried to discipline him. Ten years of patching holes in walls. Ten years of phone calls from principals, suspensions, detentions. He graduated with a GED, which he “aced”, even though his high school years report cards were typically all Fs. Ten years of him bullying and threatening his younger brother. Ten years of promising my youngest son that things would change, when we both knew I was in way over my head.

Things started to get worse last year when we got into an argument, which escalated into him looking me straight in the eye and dumping a whole bottle of anti-depressants into his mouth while mocking me. Me and my, then fiancé, watched as emergency personnel worked with him, and was told that his organs could be permanently damaged. I never felt as much as a failure as a mother at that moment…I felt like my heart was breaking. The next day he was admitted into a “Stress Clinic”, where he admitted two days later that he never swallowed the pills, that he spit them out when I ran to get help, all because he was mad at me. After that, I’ve never been able to trust him…I couldn’t believe him about anything, any of his feelings he’d try to share. Nothing, because I was always afraid he was trying to manipulate me into getting his way. Later, he had made arrangements to live with his “step brother” (my ex and girlfriend never got married, but the boy was like a brother to my son) After living with “A” for three weeks, he did something inexcusable and got kicked out of his house, and went to live with his father for a few weeks. He called me crying, begging to come home, swearing that he‘d change…I told him the only way he could come home was if he promised to join the service, because he needed to be independent, and quite frankly, I didn’t want him living with us any more. I’ve forgiven him, but I just can’t forget when he pretended to try to kill himself because I made him mad….it haunts me. Not that I wanted it to be REAL, it’s just unbelievable what level he could go to, to hurt me.

He was allowed to come home for 6 months to wait out the process of joining the Army. It was again, 6 months of stress, him fighting constantly with his brother…threatening to “kill himself”, if I couldn’t make things better for him. Two weeks before he left, my husband had to go to his step-father’s funeral, and “J” went ballistic again (he wouldn’t do it when my husband was home). He got in a physical fight with his younger brother (now 16), threw him on the ground, and was screaming obscenities at him, and threatened to kill him. The only reason I didn’t call the police, was I was afraid it would keep him from being able to start basic training (please don’t flame me, I thought the Army would give him the discipline I’ve obviously failed at). For two weeks, my youngest son pushed his dresser against his door at night, because he was afraid of his big brother.

“J” finely went off to basic about 7 weeks ago…now he’s telling me that he’s getting medically discharged because he has degenerative disc in his back. Now he wants to come home again.

I am 50 years old and wondering when we get to be happy? If I tell him yes, and he promises to change, I know it’s going to be the same, and he’s going to make everyone miserable. If I say no, and he has nowhere else to go, he will end up homeless. How can I live with myself, knowing he’s on the streets? My youngest son is just starting to be happier, and when I told him about “J”, his face just got expressionless and said “That’s okay mom, it was inevitable”.

I know I shouldn’t be asking strangers for advise, but who else will give honest opinions, than people not invested in the relationship. I don’t know if I could live with myself if I didn’t let him come home, and got a call that he took too many pills or did something else self-destructive….but I don’t know how I can put the whole family through the stress of him living under our roof again.

My husband, who has been nothing but supportive through everything says he doesn’t want “J” back, because he sees what it does to me, but it’s my decision and he “has my back” no matter what. How I ever found such a loving, wonderful, supportive man through all this is a miracle. But it’s taking a toll on our marriage too…not the love we have for each other, but just the constant ups and downs and constant stress over “J”.

I honestly don’t know what to do.
.

 

[taylor3297]

I am so sorry to hear about your situation. The only thing that came to mind after reading what you wrote is that your son needs more help than you can give him. Can you by chance get him into a residence treatment center? It would not be an easy thing to do, but I would not let him back in the house unless he went to one.

Of course this is just my opinion and I hope you are able to figure what is the right thing to do for you and your family.

 

[Scrappy_Tink]

I am so sorry to hear about your situation. The only thing that came to mind after reading what you wrote is that your son needs more help than you can give him. Can you by chance get him into a residence treatment center? It would not be an easy thing to do, but I would not let him back in the house unless he went to one.

Of course this is just my opinion and I hope you are able to figure what is the right thing to do for you and your family.

Thank you for your reply. I'm checking into local homeless shelters and such for youths...but it seems like they all specialize in things such as drug addicts, handicapped, etc. Technically, he's not even a "youth" any more, he's 20. Everybody talks about "Tough love", but I don't know if I'm tough enough. Just reading what I wrote above, I have to ask myself how I let it go as far as I did, and how I could ever consider letting him come home again. No matter what, I still love him.

 

[taylor3297]

Thank you for your reply. I'm checking into local homeless shelters and such for youths...but it seems like they all specialize in things such as drug addicts, handicapped, etc. Technically, he's not even a "youth" any more, he's 20. Everybody talks about "Tough love", but I don't know if I'm tough enough. Just reading what I wrote above, I have to ask myself how I let it go as far as I did, and how I could ever consider letting him come home again. No matter what, I still love him.

Of course you love him, you just don't "love" his behavior at times. There are places that will take young adults at his age and that deal with your sons type of issues. There is one in Alabama and VA. I can't remember the names of them right now, but I helped someone do some research on them for her son.

 

[minkydog]

I think you need to listen to your husband. I believe your son has at least one untreated psychiatric disorder and probably more. I'm reading lots of behaviors associated with borderline personality disorder. Google it.

I truly feel for you. My oldest son(23) has been high maintenence all his life. His teen years were absolutely a nightmare. He used to tell me on a daily basis how much he hated me, how worthless I was and how he wished I were dead. Or that "someday you're gonna wake up dead." All the therapy and meds and psychiatric evals didn't do him one bit of good. He never crossed the line to phyical abuse, but there were plenty of threats. Eventually he straightened up, but then last summer things deteriorated badly and we ended up parting ways. I love him so much but I CANNOT take him back.

Interestingly, once DS was out of the house he immediately found someplace to live. He didn't end up in a shelter or sleeping in the bushes by the road. Twenty year olds are resourceful. The second thing that happened is that the spirit of our home immediately calmed and became harmonious. Now that we are FINALLY experiencing the taste of normalcy, I will NOT go back.

I really do feel for you. He might beg and plead and threaten and cajole, but you know and I know that nothing will change. If you let him back in there will be more chaos. And you have another child who needs a better life than that. You all do. Let this young man stand on his own feet now. You've done everything for him, including allowing him to threaten to kill his own brother IN YOUR HOUSE. He's an adult now and you are no longer required to feed & shelter him. If he were truly repentant, AND his behavior had ALREADY changed, I would give it a cautious maybe. But his behavior hasn't changed--that's why he's begging to come home. I'm guessing his father has put his foot down and DS doesn' twant to comply. He knows just which heartstrings to pluck and he's playing your tune. Are you really willing to put this man above everyone else in your life?

Of course, you can do what you want, but I think if you take him back you will be very sorry you did. And your husband and son will know for a fact just where your loyalties lie.

All the best to you. Sometimes our lives don't turn out the way we thought they would. If you are struggling with this as much as I imagin you are, I would strongly suggest that you all get into family therapy. You need to understand why you are willing to let this boy walk all over you, disrespect your family, and hold you captive to his whims. This is not normal. You will always love him but I think it's time to say no. And change your locks NOW because there WILL be repercussions.

 

[Scrappy_Tink]

I think you need to listen to your husband. I believe your son has at least one untreated psychiatric disorder and probably more. I'm reading lots of behaviors associated with borderline personality disorder. Google it.

I truly feel for you. My oldest son(23) has been high maintenence all his life. His teen years were absolutely a nightmare. He used to tell me on a daily basis how much he hated me, how worthless I was and how he wished I were dead. Or that "someday you're gonna wake up dead." All the therapy and meds and psychiatric evals didn't do him one bit of good. He never crossed the line to phyical abuse, but there were plenty of threats. Eventually he straightened up, but then last summer things deteriorated badly and we ended up parting ways. I love him so much but I CANNOT take him back.

Interestingly, once DS was out of the house he immediately found someplace to live. He didn't end up in a shelter or sleeping in the bushes by the road. Twenty year olds are resourceful. The second thing that happened is that the spirit of our home immediately calmed and became harmonious. Now that we are FINALLY experiencing the taste of normalcy, I will NOT go back.

I really do feel for you. He might beg and plead and threaten and cajole, but you know and I know that nothing will change. If you let him back in there will be more chaos. And you have another child who needs a better life than that. You all do. Let this young man stand on his own feet now. You've done everything for him, including allowing him to threaten to kill his own brother IN YOUR HOUSE. He's an adult now and you are no longer required to feed & shelter him. If he were truly repentant, AND his behavior had ALREADY changed, I would give it a cautious maybe. But his behavior hasn't changed--that's why he's begging to come home. I'm guessing his father has put his foot down and DS doesn' twant to comply. He knows just which heartstrings to pluck and he's playing your tune. Are you really willing to put this man above everyone else in your life?

Of course, you can do what you want, but I think if you take him back you will be very sorry you did. And your husband and son will know for a fact just where your loyalties lie.

All the best to you. Sometimes our lives don't turn out the way we thought they would. If you are struggling with this as much as I imagin you are, I would strongly suggest that you all get into family therapy. You need to understand why you are willing to let this boy walk all over you, disrespect your family, and hold you captive to his whims. This is not normal. You will always love him but I think it's time to say no. And change your locks NOW because there WILL be repercussions.

It's hard hearing things i know are true. I'm glad you found harmony...this is what I want. My husband and I were talking last night and he asked me what I wanted. My answer was simply "peace". I know I shouldn't put other's happiness aside to let "J" get what he wants. I think it's just the fear of not knowing what will happen to him...and the guilt if something bad does happen. We moved right before he left, so he doesn't have a key to the house. I know we all need counseling. It's hard taking that step.

There is one in Alabama and VA. I can't remember the names of them right now, but I helped someone do some research on them for her son.

Thank you, I have a lot of homework to do....

 

[minkydog]

It's hard hearing things i know are true. I'm glad you found harmony...this is what I want. My husband and I were talking last night and he asked me what I wanted. My answer was simply "peace". I know I shouldn't put other's happiness aside to let "J" get what he wants. I think it's just the fear of not knowing what will happen to him...and the guilt if something bad does happen. We moved right before he left, so he doesn't have a key to the house. I know we all need counseling. It's hard taking that step.



Thank you, I have a lot of homework to do....

Be strong. I know how hard this is. Remember that he is choosing to act this way and all actions have consequences. Sometimes those consequences are harsh. I know when my DS23 first left he refused to have any contact with us at all--he told DH that we would never hear from him again. I was just about beside myself with grief. Of course, later we learned that he had moved in with his girlfriend in Florida(and I was sooo grateful.) But if he had not, I still have to let the chips fall where they may. If I allow my 23yo to live in my home and treat me so disrespectfully, how is it going to be when he's 33, 43, 53? My DH had an uncle who did this. Lived off his mother, mentally and verbally abused her, and depleted her savings until she was destitute at 97. And then complained when he didn't get his inheritance right away! I often wonder how things might have been different if she had cut him off in his 20s.

 

[disneyaddicted]

My heart goes out to you, this is a tough situation.

It's one thing to forgive a loved one for all the pain they have brought to family members, but forgiving doesn't mean that you can allow them to continue hurting people.

One thing I had noticed through your posts is you kept saying you had failed. I don't see how you failed, you loved and sheltered your son, you left his Dad for the sake of your boys. You wanted them to be better then what their Dad was showing them. You did your best and blaming yourself for how your son turned out is not your fault. He has deep emotional problems and you can't help him. He needs medical help.

It's your turn for peace and happiness, you have another child that needs you so much more. I know it hurts to have to tell a child "I can't do this anymore." But he is really the only one who can help himself, he won't be able to help himself if you constantly take him in, the only thing he has learned from his mistakes is that you will always give into him. He's a bully, don't let him bully you anymore. turning him away from your door doesn't mean you don't love him, you so obvioulsy do love him or you wouldn't be hurting so much for him. He needs to be told no, it will hurt right now, but hopefully it will make him seek the help he needs.

I will be praying for you and your family.

 

[fletchers5]

First..HUGS to you

I 100% agree with disneyaddicted.

You are NOT at fault....you have done more than most people would have done. You REALLY need to start thinking of you first..then your husband and your son that is still living with you. DO NOT ALLOW your son to come home. He is an adult and you have done all you can do. Whatever happens is NOT your fault. Guilt trips can play havoc. You are a GREAT PARENT and no matter what happens YOU ARE STILL A GREAT PARENT.

I remember years ago ( at least 15) watching a documentary on a boy that had the death sentance. It was his story and he wanted everyone to know about it.

He was a teenager and used to get into trouble. His parents ALWAYS bailed him out. He would get out of prison and his parents would bail him out again. Never once did he have to account for his behavior. He was robbing a small store with a couple of friends and the store owner grabbed a gun so this boy shot the store owner. Killed him. Now he was being sentenced to death. He said that if his parents would have made him accountable and NOT bailed him out of prison..maybe his life would have been different. He was not blaming his parents but letting people know that your KIDS need to be held responsible for THEIR actions.

I always remember watching that and told all three of my children from the time they were little..." If you ever get arrested...DO NOT CALL ME"

It is really hard to think of letting go of your child...kind of like when they hit 18 and off to college. It is like a bird...the momma bird pushes the baby out of the nest when it is time for them to be on their own.

My prayers our with you and your family....please start living and enjoying yourself.

 

[diesel]

I’m going to give you the other side of the story from your younger son’s perspective. Please don’t let him back into your house. You keep saying he’s my son but what about your other son? Doesn’t he deserve to be happy and have a “normal” life? If he’s 16 and this has been going on for ten years that’s almost his whole childhood having to deal with his brothers issues. I’m not trying to make you feel guilty but I’ve been in your younger son’s shoes and it is not pleasant. You become very resentful of your parents for allowing this to go on and on.

 

[Poohbug]

It sounds like having your oldest son live with you does not help anyone. He needs help but you can't give it to him. He is an adult and needs to know the consequences of his actions.

You are not a bad mother. You did not do this to him. You did what you had to do with the circumstances you had. Don't let him make you feel guilty.

I think it is more important to be there for your younger son right now. He is still a child. He needs to know that he is just as important. He needs to know that bad behavior is not rewarded.

Look into shelters or homes or even mental health facilities. I would not let him back in my house.

 

[circhead]

I am sorry you are going through this.

I wouldn't let him back in the house your younger son has the right to feel safe in his own home.

I honestly believe that you are faced with "Sophie's Choice" ( a movie about a woman sent to a concentration camp during the Holocaust with her 2 children and the guards made her choose 1 of them to keep with her, the other they sent to the showers). You are not abandoning him you are making him be an adult and live with the repercussions of his actions.

I don't know if this would work but maybe you and his father could help him pay rent on an apartment for 6 mos with certain conditions that need to be met - he gets into counseling and he finds a job. In 2 months he becomes responsible for paying his own utilities - at the end of the 6 mo term you reevaluate - is he getting help is he keeping up his end of the bargain - if he is maybe you continue to help with the rent for another 6 mos. you pay half he pays half. If he is doing his part you may find that your relationship with him changes and now it's adult to adult and you and he will have a healthier relationship. If he doesn't keep up his end of the bargain you may have to turn your back on him because having him at home is doing damage to the other people you love.

I will keep you and our family in my thoughts and prayers. Good luck!

 

[ccgirl]

I would say the time to say no is now. I haven't read through all the replies but think of how you would fail if he harmed his younger brother. You would probably never get over the guilt. Would he go see someone about his mental state? IMHO, I would not let him live with you. Just sounds like something bad can really happy. I feel for you. We can only teach our kids so much then it's up to them. Hugs to you.

 

[Scrappy_Tink]

Thank you all for your replies, kind thoughts, and prayers. I talked to my oldest son and told him that he is not allowed to come back...he "hinted" at hurting himself, which I responded that I love him, and he needed to seek help and stick to it. His dad is retired military, so he has medical insurance until he turns 21, I really hope he seeks the assistance he needs. He asked me what he could do, and I told him that I would assist him in finding a shelter and he would be more than welcome to visit and have meals with us now and then (if his behavior is good). I really thought this was the answer. If a shelter doesn't give you the motivation to get a job and behave, what will?

He called me back the next day and told me that his father decided he can live with him until he gets on his feet. I have such mixed emotions about this...I know at least at his father's, he can't hurt any one. I just hope that his dad doesn't enable him any more, and makes him go out and get a job. I'd really like J to be sucessfull and have a good future.

As to my 16 year old son...I know he deserves to have peace and happiness. I'm embarrassed to say that I let my oldest son reign over our house. I thank God every day for my husband (we will celebrate our 1 year anniversary next month), who has tried to gently guide "J", and supported me through everything. (He was at his step-dads funeral in KY when the latest incident happened) My youngest's attitude has greatly improved since his brother has been gone, and it's so good to see him smile and his sense of humor expanding. I promised him I'll keep him safe, and never let "J" hurt him again.

As for me....I saw my dr. this week and she prescribed me Paxil. I think I've cried every day for the last several months, and my DH suggested I try this. I told her I thought my depression was "situational", but she still wanted me to try, and suggested counseling. I think I'm going to try a pastor or chaplain on the military base.

I’m going to give you the other side of the story from your younger son’s perspective. Please don’t let him back into your house. You keep saying he’s my son but what about your other son? Doesn’t he deserve to be happy and have a “normal” life? If he’s 16 and this has been going on for ten years that’s almost his whole childhood having to deal with his brothers issues. I’m not trying to make you feel guilty but I’ve been in your younger son’s shoes and it is not pleasant. You become very resentful of your parents for allowing this to go on and on.

Thank you for sharing. I'm sorry you lived though this on the "other side". I've promised my youngest son that I will protect him...if that means not letting "J" back in the house, so-be-it. I've apologized to him so many times for "Js" past actions, I hope he can forgive me and not resent me.

Again, thank you all...I tend to be hard on myself. And I know I did fail in some ways. I was the one that did the enabling. As a single mom (Father lived out of state), it was so much easier to not punish him for his actions because I didn't want to handle his temper (i.e. throwing things, punching holes in walls, threats, etc.). Everyone is right, this was not fair to my youngest.

Please, everyone that has read this and believes in God, continue to pray for me and my family.

Thanks again.

 

[Kat&Dom]

I think that you are going to feel guilty no matter what you decide. I remember when I was pregnant with my son, my doctor told me - let me give you some advice, every single decision you make - you will feel guilty. I have never forgotten that advice and have come to appreciate how true it really is.

If you allow your older son to continue to treat/abuse you, your other son and your husband than he will never change. He is able to get what he wants by his behavior so if you want him to change that behavior - you have to use tough love. His behavior is working for him and he will just get more and more abusive as time goes on.

As heart wrenching as it is, I think that you need to let go and let him live with the consequences of his behavior - you need to stand up for yourself and let him know that his behavior is not acceptable and that although you love him deeply, you can no longer allow him to treat you the way he has. Stand up for YOU! Do not bring your other son into the conversation - obviously he deserves a home that is happy and harmonious but that is a completely separate issue and bringing his name into it could cause your older son to act out against him. If you stand up for YOU, you will get respect eventually - it won't be easy but it will come.

I would also like to suggest that you look at some family counselling for you, your younger son and your husband to work through all the feelings that each of you have over your older son's behavior. Both your husband and son obviously love you but it would be great for everyone to work through their feelings and for all of you to get closer because of this situation.

I am so sorry that you are going through this and I hope your older son is able to get the help he so desperately needs and that he can become a happy and functioning adult who treats everyone with respect and kindness.

Let go of the guilt and let happiness come in.

 

[Scrappy_Tink]

Stand up for YOU! Do not bring your other son into the conversation - obviously he deserves a home that is happy and harmonious but that is a completely separate issue and bringing his name into it could cause your older son to act out against him.

Thanks, I wish I'd thought of this earlier! I did bring my other son into the conversation when I was talking with "J". I mentioned to him that I still had responsbilities to his brother, to give him a safe and happy home enviornment (just as he deserved the same), and he started on things his brother had done to "make" him to behave that way.

Believe me, my youngest is no saint (typical teen procrastinator, a little mouthy now & then, etc), but he has never been into trouble or hurt anyone. My mom, who is the hardest person to tell this to (I've basically kept many things from her, because she is elderly and I don't want to make sick) made the comment "Maybe "J" doesn't feel as loved as _____ ". That comment tore me. If anything, "J" has gotten more attention than my other son ever has, because everything has been about him and his current crisis.

Ironically, my youngest is a "geek" and is very much into computer programing, and will be going to State competition soon through SkillsUSA...he credits his computer saavy to his brother, because that was his "escape" when things were bothering him. I'm blessed that he turned to that instead of drugs, alcohol, or sex, like some teens would.

 

[Kat&Dom]

Thanks, I wish I'd thought of this earlier! I did bring my other son into the conversation when I was talking with "J". I mentioned to him that I still had responsbilities to his brother, to give him a safe and happy home enviornment (just as he deserved the same), and he started on things his brother had done to "make" him to behave that way.

Believe me, my youngest is no saint (typical teen procrastinator, a little mouthy now & then, etc), but he has never been into trouble or hurt anyone. My mom, who is the hardest person to tell this to (I've basically kept many things from her, because she is elderly and I don't want to make sick) made the comment "Maybe "J" doesn't feel as loved as _____ ". That comment tore me. If anything, "J" has gotten more attention than my other son ever has, because everything has been about him and his current crisis.

Ironically, my youngest is a "geek" and is very much into computer programing, and will be going to State competition soon through SkillsUSA...he credits his computer saavy to his brother, because that was his "escape" when things were bothering him. I'm blessed that he turned to that instead of drugs, alcohol, or sex, like some teens would.

I think that you are a very wise and loving mother dealing with a very difficult situation - I will keep you in my prayers. I am a single mom too and I know how exhausting it is to be the only one to discipline. You did the very best you could with all the love in your heart for both sons so don't beat yourself up with guilt.

I have come to believe that who are children are is from birth and as parents, we nuture and try to guide and hope and pray that they turn out to be happy, well adjusted, loving human beings. I see really awesome parents that have very difficult to deal with children and some not so great parents have wonderful children.

My son is such a loving, kind and sharing person. He has always been that way - it was nothing that I taught him, it is just who he is. My best friend has a great little boy that struggles really hard with sharing and playing with other children. On his own, he is fine but with other children, he struggles socially - my friend and her husband are wonderful, kind, loving people and she asked me one day, how I got my son to be so good at sharing. I shrugged my shoulders and said, it is who he is - I can't take credit for it.

I think that your older son is who he is and I hope that he is able to work through his issues and become a happy and kind person. And just because it is who he is does not mean that there are not consequences to his actions - he needs to make some major changes and it starts with how you are handling things - once he knows that you know you deserve respect and love, he will change because I can see how much you love him and I know he knows you love him. Good luck and I will be praying for you.