When is it child abuse?

[vic32]

I am with mrslur. I am 37 and would have loved my mother to be reported.
On the other hand as a mother myself, I have a very strong willed and spirited child. And would hate for someone to mis understand. I have called the police before, and years ago I confronted a man in a parking lot. He started after me. I realized later that the poor little boy probably got it worse.
I just don't understand how people can be so cruel.

 

[gottaluvPluto]

OP, I am a mandated reported (means by law, I have to report child abuse).

Just wanted to chime in that EVERYONE is a mandated reporter.

Also, this is a very sad story. Well, all the stories being told on this thread is sad. In my job, I have seen a lot of horrible things and I still get upset whenever I hear or see something like this.

 

[Pea-n-Me]

The problem I have been having is when we are in public. I am so uncomfortable reprimanding or carrying through a punishment for fear of other peoples interpretation of what I am doing to my child.

The difference is in how you handle it. Most people can recognize when a child is out of control. It's when the parent loses that it becomes a problem. Stay calm but firm with your child; no physical or verbally abusive actions on your part and you should be fine.

 

[eeyore45]

I'm 45 now but speaking as one who was abused as a child my brothers and I would have given anything if someone had reported our mother.

and Vic--- I too was abused as a child, and I too cry when I read these posts...

BUT, what I havent read is if anyone has any idea how DISNEY would handle it - telling the TRAM (not a bus in this situation) CM, wasnt going to help, (Tram CM's being young I imagine, they have little experience) so I can see calling 911, but, you would have to get a license and know where they are staying...

too, too sad...

 

[JenLynn]

On a different note, it is sometimes helpful to approach the parents in a manner of distracting them from their anger at the child. To accuse or attack often escalates the situation. Many times you can distract the parents with a comment such as "Goodness, these hot days are really trying for everyone, aren't they?" This is not to say that other action should not take place (reporting the incident, calling 911, etc). But if your effort is to stop the actions at that time, this is often a good way to do it.

 

[lucyanna girl]

Thanks everyone for your kind words. DD and I still talk about and fear for that baby. One of my grandsons is about that same age and I see him almost everyday. We love our little Brier so much that I can't imagine anyone mis-treating him.
Meezer and Michelle2, I thought the CM would have a way to call Security, that is why we got off the car we were on and reboarded hers to ask that she call them.Thank you for asking about DD, I have rarely seen her so upset and I think she will always remember how she felt. She is the quiet peace-maker amoung her group of friends at school but has told several family members that she wanted to scream at those parents and make them stop.
Lucky4me, I truely wish I had done something else but at that moment I thought Disney Security would be the ones who would respond the quickest.
Your idea about posing as undercover secrity is great, I only wish I had been so smart that night, I can only say sometimes when you are so upset you don't think as clearly as you would hope.
Tanuki, I would have been GLAD to testify against those parents.
Dmslush, I so hope they have already been caught and stopped. I saw the way the older children acted, my idea then and now was that they weren't just embarrased, they were scared of what would happen to them if they opened their mouths.
PoohHappens, My husband and I have 6 children and 9 grandchildren and I do know how they can push your buttons. We also have one son and one grandson age 11 who are as strong-willed as anyone you have ever meet ( Son grew up to be a Special Forces Marine Scout-Snipper ). I would be lying if I claimed never to have run out of patience and yelled or to never have spanked a little bottom. BUT there is a difference in normal moments you aren't at your best as a parent and what we saw that night. I also know just what you mean by being mis-understood by people who don't know the whole story. When DS now 28 was aroud 4 we made a last minute dept. store run on Christmas Eve with my mother. He decided he Would have a toy, I told him no, Santa is coming tonite. Need od a nap and excitement got the best of lim and a melt-down occured. I handed DM my purchases and made my way to the car with a child who screamed the entire way " NO, NO, DON'T TAKE ME TO THE CAR, I'LL BE GOOD NOW JUST DON'T TAKE ME TO THE CAR!!! People were pointing and shaking their heads and I felt like an ax murderer. He immediatly went to sleep with no repurcussions and felt like a new little man when he woke up. This incident was different, I was sitting on the same row as mother and screaming baby and when father was reaching over the seat and pinching or squeesing little hand I could see father's face and there was a look of something I have no words to describe on it. Also Mothers response to the lady who tried to talk to her was not just a tired mother but a yelled insult.
Lisa loves Pooh, Oh how I wish I had thought of getting their license plate number, No excuse, just didn't think well at that moment.
Mickeymel, I agree parents need time outs, I can remember when mine were small going to my room and giving myself a chance to calm down on more than one occasion. In this case Both parents were teamed up against one little person whose little face was so swollen from crying that it makes my heart hurt to this day.

I am sorry I didn't find a way to help that baby on that night. I think of him and their other children often and pray for their safety.

 

[melaniemiller2002]

My H and I have witnessed something similar in our town. He pulled out his badge, held the parents there until the "real cops" showed up (he's a Correctional Officer), and then ended up testifying in court. Turns out the parents had been abusing not only the child we witnessed, but also their 2 adoptive children as well

It does pay to be sure, however, that the parent is actually abusing the child. Our neighbors called the police on us one night. The reason? She said she heard my stepson screaming "no daddy...please don't....it hurts" and other cries. She said it had been going on for 30 minutes or so. Well, she was right...my stepson had a loose tooth he was dying to get out of his mouth. It was ready to come out with a little help (it was pretty darn loose but hanging on). My stepson asked his dad to do it because he was too scared to. My stepson is a pretty timid child. Some would call him a "wimp"; I call it "being cautious"....LOL. So my H gingerly starts tugging on the tooth and the screaming began. My H stopped; my stepson asked him to keep trying. This went on for quite some time. And yes, my stepson was screaming quite loudly. I went to put a load of laundry in and could hear them all the way in the laundry room (we lived in condos at that time and the laundry was about 1/2 a block away). I remember coming in and telling both of them to knock it off because someone was going to call the cops on us....LOL. Well, they did and it took several minutes of explaining before the cops were satisfied nobody was getting beat .

The neighbors apologized, but we weren't mad at them. Had we been abusing our child, I would have wanted them to report us. I'm glad they had the courage to call the police. Yes, it was an inconvenience (although my stepson thought it was cool the police showed up), but that's okay. I know my neighbors are conscientious folks and that makes me feel good .

One of my nursing instructors is married to a gentleman who deals with child abuse all day long. He came in our class to lecture one day and showed horrific photos of abused children. We discussed the different parenting methods and which teetered on the line of child abuse. Spanking was a hot topic. My nursing instructor did not believe in spanking, nor did her husband. My husband and I have spanked the children (yes, they are my stepkids, but have been with me since they were 1 1/2 and 4). Actually, I've never spanked my stepson. For one, he was a bit older when I came into his life and it just didn't feel right...I left that to my husband. And for another, he never does anything around me that would warrant a spanking.

My stepdaughter has been spanked; 3 times by me. It's always been done in a calm manner (I don't ever spank in a fit of anger) and controlled. 3 swats and it's done. She was spanked over things she did that endangered her life. She's 5, almost 6 now and we've not spanked her since she was 4. She's never thrown a temper tantrum; both kids are extremely well behaved, polite, good students, very loving, etc. They still misbehave, as most kids will, but they know when to stop. There is a line and they don't cross it. I hear my stepson's 8 year old friends and they way they talk to their parents; it makes me cringe I am almost 32 and would NEVER talk to my mother the way these kids talk to their parents. For us, the "time out" didn't work, and neither did sitting in a corner, the "let's talk about about what we did wrong", etc. I was spanked a few times as a kids for doing horrible things (one time I took a red nail polish bottle and flung it all over my mom's white living room ). The punishment that I DID NOT like and that made me feel degraded was not the spanking; it was the slapping. As I got older and my mom didn't feel it appropriate to spank me, she slapped me. Not a lot, but enough for me to remember. I will NEVER slap my children, ever.

Sorry to get off on a tangent there; these days, it's a world of "mind your own business" and people keep to themselves. I hope that if anyone ever sees the situation mentioned by the OP (which I hope they never have to witness), they will intervene. I can't imagine what happened to that child when they got to their destination. And what a horrible memory of WDW for that child. I agree about how you need a license to drive, but not to parent. In the area I live, there are MANY young mothers (our state ranks highest in teen pregnancies) and I see so many young women overwhelmed with the job of being a mother. We also have one of the highest percentages of grandparents raising their grandkids because the young parents can't deal with it. Child abuse is a common thing around here (I used to be part of CASA...they are advocates for the abused children) and it's very sad.

Melanie

 

[WDW1st-timers]

I am sorry I didn't find a way to help that baby on that night. I think of him and their other children often and pray for their safety.

Don't worry to much cause I'm sure someone caught up with them. You did the best you could under the conditions. Way to go on trying to report it!

 

[PneumaticTransit]

I wanted to comment on something here. I agree that these parents crossed the line and were being abusive to the child, at least based on what was stated in the post as I did not see the incident. I will say as a parent however that I have been really struggling with the issue of what others think of my parenting. I have a very strong willed son who we have been working very dilligently with because we want him to grow into a confident yet self controlled individual. The problem I have been having is when we are in public. I am so uncomfortable reprimanding or carrying through a punishment for fear of other peoples interpretation of what I am doing to my child. Our son has been known to run away in a store or other similar things that are just not safe. When we try to put a stop to it he will scream and roar and kick like we are torturing him. I think he knows how to 'work it'. We had an incident a while back at target that involved my son wanting to walk independently in the parking lot. We finally picked him up and he screamed the whole way to the car. When we got to the car we discovered he had a dirty diaper and we changed it in the car with him screaming the whole time. After that we had to basically hold him down to get him buckled in his car seat. He continued to scream. We had in no way abused our child. We had only refused to let him have his way on issues that involved his safety. A woman continued to drive around our car giving us very dirty looks and eventually picked up her cell phone and made a call. I was very uncomfortable with this and felt horrible. Now if we were abusing our son would we want someone to be his advocate--yes. But I feel like I can't do anything in public because someone is ready to turn me in for being a responsible parent. Again, I realize that the info in the origional post is over the top and not acceptable. I just wanted people to remember that they may not always know the entire situation of what they are seeing. Again before you all flame me I do not find pulling hair and demeaning a child acceptable. Go ahead flame away at me now.

I agree with your post. I babysat my DH friend's son once. He was about 2 or 3 at the time. From the time his parents left he had a major melt down. He screamed so hard he started choking, he ran over to the sliding glass door, sat down in front of it and literally starting banging his head againt the glass as hard as he could. I was frantically trying to pick him up, he hit and scratched and screamed. I had no choice but to be forceful in restraining him. If I were in a public place when this happened, lord knows what people would have thought I was doing to him. By the time the night was over, his eyes were swollen and red from crying, he was loosing his voice from screaming, and had a bump on his head and red marks on his body. I'm just glad they didn't think I beat him while they were gone. They knew he was just high strung with a bad temper.

 

[SlightlyGoofy]

I have been on about all sides of this situation. I wish my father had been reported. He was just plain mean. IMO some abusers do not have any concept that they are abusers. "Look what THEY made me do" mentality. There might be those who do so secretly cause they know they are evil incarnet but those who do so in public just do not have a clue and I am willing to bet that many of them were raised the same way. Does not make it right though. I am scared of confronting such a situation cause I know what I would have gotten when I got home if someone had done so with me. What I have come up with is trying to be 'sympathetic' to the abuser by saying something like "I know how hard it can be sometimes" or something of the ilk. It seems to calm them down for a bit. In an overt case I would find the nearest official. I have even been known to follow a lady through WM because of the way her child was talking. It is so hard to know what context to take some things in as you do not know what the child might have been doing for the two hours prior or the personalities involved. I have seen some very well behaved kids that I worry about because I know, the way we were raised, that some of them are being abused at home away from witnesses.

I currently have a situation, very close to home, where I am worried about abuse but have come to the conclusion (verbal, no signs of physical thank God) that if the authorities came in they would split the family up and that might be worse. I pray I am right, daily.

It breaks my heart, for the children AND parents, when I see the "Get our money's worth" at DW or elsewhere. It is not how much you do that counts but how much fun you have with each other.

I am so sorry your daughter had to see such a thing. The only good thing to come out of that situation is that now she knows how lucky she is and she is not apt to settle for being treated that way nor let her kids be treated that way .

My wish would have been for EVERYONE on that tram to have shouted for it to stop and each and every one of them to have confronted that parent or parents. That seems to have been an overt and positive case of abuse. Usually all it takes is for one person to take the first step for others to follow. Finding the one person is the hardest.

Every child should be guaranteed to be wanted and loved when they are born. They can survive with little else but not that.

Slightly Goofy/aka grandma

 

[The Dark Dancer]

So sad.... I'm OP's DD and I wanted to tell what I remember from that night.

My DM and I boarded the tram and the little boy and his parents got on beside us. The boy was crying so hard his little face was swollin' and who could blame him! It was vey late at night for him to still be out: It was probably 11:00 at night.
Well, the lil' boy continued to cry. The mother then spanked him very hard. A lady in front of us asked very politely for them to stop because, he was just obviously tired. The mother said," It's none of your GD business! I was shocked because, there were alot of children on the tram and it was a very inappropriate thing to say in front of them.
He just cried harder about wanting to go see Mickey Mouse. The father, who was in the row in front of us, then turned around, grabbed the boy's hand and squeezed and pinched him very hard ! Ok, now don't get me wrong, I'm always the one who tries and keep the peace but I was ready to explode.
Everybody on our tram car was silent because, we thought that if we said anything it would just make matters worse. At one stop, my Mom was fuming so we went to the back to see the CM. She didn't look much older than me (I'm 13). DM asked her to please call security. She didn't.
The whole time I remained silent cause, I was holding back tears. I was so mad but, I was scared for the little boy. We got off and went to get in our car and I was so emotional, I was crying before we even got in the car. I spent the rest of the night thinking of how blessed I am that I have a family that loves me and that would never hurt me. Everyday I can't help but think of the little boy and pray that he's alright.

 

[dmslush]

So sad.... I'm OP's DD and I wanted to tell what I remember from that night.

My DM and I boarded the tram and the little boy and his parents got on beside us. The boy was crying so hard his little face was swollin' and who could blame him! It was vey late at night for him to still be out: It was probably 11:00 at night.
Well, the lil' boy continued to cry. The mother then spanked him very hard. A lady in front of us asked very politely for them to stop because, he was just obviously tired. The mother said," It's none of your GD business! I was shocked because, there were alot of children on the tram and it was a very inappropriate thing to say in front of them.
He just cried harder about wanting to go see Mickey Mouse. The father, who was in the row in front of us, then turned around, grabbed the boy's hand and pinched him! Ok, now don't get me wrong, I'm always the one who tries and keep the peace but I was ready to explode.
Everybody on our tram car was silent because, we thought that if we said anything it would just make matters worse. At one stop, my Mom was fuming so we went to the back to see the CM. She didn't look much older than me (I'm 13). DM asked her to please call security. She didn't.
The whole time I remained silent cause, I was holding back tears. I was so mad but, I was scared for the little boy. We got off and went to get in our car and I was so emotional, I was crying before we even got in the car. I spent the rest of the night thinking of how blessed I am that I have a family that loves me and that would never hurt me. Everyday I can't help but think of the little boy and pray that he's alright.

I am so sorry that you had to witness such violence.. that is such an awful thing for a teen to have to absorb. It is difficult for adults to understand why people are so mean, so I know it is difficult for you. Just remember that you and your mom did all that you could think of at that time. I am proud of both of you for stepping in and trying to get the child some assistance. I hate that it put a damper on your trip.

 

[MickeyMinnieMommy]

Dark Dancer, I'm also sorry that you witnessed that. My own kids are much younger than you are and when we're at Disney we almost always see something that makes my DS (5 last trip) ask me why a parent would do that. So far he hasn't seen anything worse than a kid get swatted on the behind; I expect something like this would traumatize him. I can only imagine how you feel.

My older brother is a CM working on the carts at MGM. I asked him today what he is supposed to do if he sees someone abusing their child. He said they can call security and also that the sheriff's office can be alerted; usually at each park there is an officer present every day. CMs are not really trained in recognizing abuse; since he is an EMT and I'm a teacher, both of us have had more training that CMs at WDW.

Anyway, I'm glad that you were there and that you tried to do what you could for him. I, too, believe that someone is going to catch this family. And if not, I also believe in karma catching up with them someday.

 

[snyderla]

I'm 45 now but speaking as one who was abused as a child my brothers and I would have given anything if someone had reported our mother.

Ditto here. I heard people say "I wish we could do something, but I'm afraid we would just make it worse". We lived through it, but she really needed help.

 

[LoveWDW]

This story made me cry. I feel so badly. I can understand that the parents were tired and the children were tired and may have been acting up. But the parents were way out of control, and the comment by an outsider should have been a splash of cold water on the parents and calmed them. That it didn't, I'm afraid, says something about the kind of people they are.

I have worried about the babies whose skin is red and are being pushed around in strollers with no hats or protection from the sun. Even if the parents put sunscreen on the baby, the red skin means the sunscreen needs to be renewed. The baby can't do anything about it. And the little children who are being yanked around and who look so tired.

But this is the worst story I've heard. Very sad indeed. The other children of the family staring straight ahead shows that they have experienced it before and learned to not react. The three year old will learn, too. What a way to live.

 

[Selket]

I just wanted to add that it is terrible to see something like that - and you have so little time to actually do something about it and hard to know what to do and how to do it. You can't blame yourself. The CM on the tram should have called someone if you requested it.

Also some have noted how their children have tantrums in a store or public place and wonder if folks think they are bad parents/abusing their kids. I'm fortunate my kids have generally not been prone to that (I do say "generally" ) but that isn't abuse or a sign or bad parenting. There is nothing unusual about a child having a meltdown - I think you shouldn't worry about being judged in that situation. As long as the parents are calm and trying to handle the situation without losing their temper I don't think twice about it.

My 3 yr old is a type 1 diabetic and sometimes we've had the unfortunate occassion to be some place like Target and he is running high and he insists on buying a toy. Saying "no" to him in that situation turns him into a screaming, sobbing miserable little fellow. I try to avoid that happening but when it does I just get him in the stroller or hold him and take him out.

Don't rule out medical reasons for a child's behaviour either. My diabetic son was diagnosed with diabetes at 26 months of age but a couple of months beforehand I noticed some changes in his behaviour - which I thought were just the "terrible twos" but I think, seeing that he seemed to had less of an edge after going on insulin, that it was just a reflection of how bad he felt in the early stages of his diabetes

It does break my heart to hear of parents hitting a 3 year old like that.

 

[ktink]

That's so sad. I have children so I know it can be trying when they are tired but I would NEVER touch my children like that. You know something that amazes me is that how some parents can keep these young children out all day in the parks with no naps and they are just tired and hot and then wonder WHY they have "meltdowns". We always try to head to the rooms when it gets to be too much for the kids or ourselves for that matter. There's always plenty of time to take a rest and return when everyone feels better. That poor child, it almost makes you want to jerk the mother by the hair of the head. So sad.

 

[julia & nicks mom]

I think the key in knowing that this was abuse is that the parents did not care one bit who saw it -

when my DD throws an all out tantrum in public (only twice) i do EVERYTHING in my power to talk her out of the situation and remain calm with her - any disciplining I do is in private! (not hitting - just the punishment phase)

and if this was happening at Disney at 11:00 at night - I would take the blame upon myself!

I am sorry you saw this and felt so helpless!!

 

[The Dark Dancer]

Thank you dmslush and MickeyMinnieMommie: It was hard to see something like that because, If that's what the parents will do to the little boy in public...what do they do to him in private.. .It was a very sad experience and I hope I never see something like that again but if I do I hope I'll be able to do more to help.

 

[Anewman]

When is it child abuse?

Well I would say when it is NOT your child, everything else is subjective. Some parents feel yelling is child abuse, some draw the line at spanking and others feel that a belt is acceptable. Of course everyone that posts here knows EXACTLY where the line should be.

"The mother then spanked him very hard." (very hard to one person...)
"He just cried harder about wanting to go see Mickey Mouse."
"grabbed the boy's hand and pinched him!"

Now contrary to some of the posters that say those Parents should have their son taken away because he was spanked and pinched while throwing a tantrum because he wanted to see Mickey. The biggest mistake here was parents not waiting till they got home or room to take care of this, or teaching him right in the first place. On the big scale of things, this pales in comparison with REAL child abuse.

Yes those are obviously not the best parents in the world. In my opinion The boy was Crying because that is usually the way he gets what he wants.
He was taught this by his parents.

Now I do agree that if someone was spanking their own kid, I would ask them not to do it in front of my kids. YES THAT IS MY BUSINESS, Without telling them what is acceptable for theirs.