When is it child abuse?

[lucyanna girl]

On our June trip DD and I left MK around 11 one night. We had driven and took the tram back to the parking lot.
A couple with 3 children boarded the tram. The youngest, a little boy maybe 3 years old had been crying for some time judging from the way his eyes were swollen. Mother, little boy and one child sat on one seat, Father and other child sat on seat in front of them. Mother started out by up-ending baby and spanking him HARD, yelling all the time. She then grabbed him by the hair on back of his head and jerking his head back. Baby screamed louder. All the other people on tram looked on in disbelief. One lady asked her to stop, told her "it's late and your child is hot and tired". The mother told her to mind her "own G__Damned busines" We could all see that trying to reason with them was just making it harder on the little boy who was still screaming. The father then turned around, grabed the baby's hand and either sqeesed it or pinched it while yelling at him that he's really gonna get it when they get to the car and not come back tomarrow, that he can't see Micky Mouse when he wants to. Baby continued to cry, Father kept yelling and grabing his hand, Their other children looked straight in front of them and tried to ignore the whole thing.
People were upset and angry but afraid to say anything for fear they would make things even worse for the little boy when the parents got him in the car. People were getting off in parking lots that weren't even theirs just to get away. DD and I got off, walked back to the back car where the CM with the microphone is and re-boarded. I told her what was going on, you could plainly hear the baby still screaming, and begged her to call security. I told her I would testify against the parents if she would call for help. She was just a youngster and you could tell she just didn't know what to do. While I was still begging her to call security the parents and children got off.
DD cried for 2 hours until she finally fell asleep out of fear and sorrow for that little boy. She is our much loved surprise cabose who came along 14 years behind her next brother and can't imagine that not everyone is loved like she is. I have worried about that child every time I think of it and wish that I had had the good sense to use my cell to call the police instead of trying to get the CM to do it.
Some days you have to wonder why God blesses some people with children. This went WAY beyond just tired parents, we have 6 children and they have been very creative in ways to try our patience at times but we have never dreamed of treating one of them like this.

 

[LiLIrishChick63]

that's so awful. you should have asked to speak to a park manager or someone with more experience. in my experience if someone reports something like that to me, i call security asap.


a few years ago, in 2003, i went with my boyfriend to DW and we stayed at Boardwalk. we were walking back to the hotel and we heard this guy screaming at his family.......literlary screaming at them, in the hotel room and threatening them. well there was probably about 50 people walking around and you could tell that everyone could hear it. it was awful, some people were even making comments about it. i would have loved to have told someone, but i couldn't tell exactly where it was coming from. i understand if you have to disicipline your children even when you're on vacation........but you don't need to have everyone else in the resort hear you.

 

[Meezers]

Does anyone have the correct telephone number to contact Disney Security or whatever police department responds to these type of calls? That way I can program it in my cell phone in case I see one of these problems.

I am so sorry your daughter had to see this...I hope she is okay now.

And yes...this would be abuse I would think.

Does anyone know if these types of crimes are actually written up at WDW...I know some areas of the country where domestic violence seems to be ignored.

 

[WDW1st-timers]

I'm a ECE teacher and daycare owner. In Canada the parents would of had their children taken away by Childrens Aid and the parents would have to go in front of the courts and plead their case. They would have to go through a series of anger managment classes and others depending on the problems.

Just incase someone was unsure....What was posted by the OP is 100% abuse. Verbal, Mental, and Physical! I know people have bad days and tempers can be raised, but please....that was over board!

I know alot of people don't want to get involved but please think of this.... if you knew that there was SERIOUS abuse to a child, do you think you could sleep or not defend an inoccent defencless child? I know this is me speaking and I can't act for others...but...after that family got off the tram I would of followed them and copied the plate number from the car; and try not to make things worst for the child. OR I would of SCREAMED for security and kept screaming. They can't run that fast with children and I bet security would of caught them and held the family for questioning with family services.

The world would be so much saver and happier if we could stop all kinds of abuse, not just in children either.

Every day I wake up to my two gorgous girls and blessed to have a loving husband after 10 years marriage on July 1 and 17 years together.

Over all this is my opinion, and everyone can have their own and I respect it. Please don't flame my comments, they are my own; Just like I respect yours.

Peace and Love

 

[nanalisa]

I would consider that child abuse. Would 911 be helpful in that situation?

I remember about 10 years ago at POR, we had just gotten back to our room late one evening and our kids had run out to the "quiet" pool when I heard someone just banging and banging on the door next to us. I was on the phone or I would have opened our door to see. After about 5 min someone from the inside opened their door and for the next 30 min the "father" yelled at his small childen and I could hear every word he said. My kids at the pool said it was a man and woman banging on the door. It seems that mom and dad had gone out for the night and left 2 or 3 small children in the room alone and they were so scared that they were afraid to open the door. They couldn't have been very old because I could hear them crying and the dad just kept called them f...ing cry babies and f...ing jerks and losers. The mom was trying to calm him and then he took after her, saying she was raising a sissy's. It was a nightmare, no way to express in words how awful it was. My husband wasn't there and I was afraid - I wouldn't be afraid today. It's my biggest regret that I did nothing to help those poor children. I did talk to a CM the next day about it but it didn't matter, they were gone, never did see that man. Maybe the folks on the other side of their room had the guts to call the police.

 

[SorcererDonald16]

That's absolutely awful. My parents and I dealt with something somewhat similar when we stayed at what was then Dixie Landings back in 1998. I was only 15 at the time, and I still remember it like it was yesterday. We are probably the quietest hotel neighbors people could have; we don't get in from the parks until late and immediately head to sleep. I think it was around 1am that night, and we'd just gotten in from Magic Kingdom (back in the day where it was frequently open until midnight, even pre-EMH and pre-ERide Nights). We soon heard the people in the next room (which had been empty the day before to our knowledge) come in. The man was screaming his head off and the woman was trying to calm him down. She apparently went to take a shower or something because we heard the water running. As soon as she did, the man started yelling again and we soon heard a really loud smack. So loud it practically sounded like a cracking whip. Sure enough, what sounded like a small little boy started wailing. The guy starts cussing his son (assuming it was his son) out with every word you can think of, and we keep hearing that smacking noise, and the child keeps crying harder and harder. I think it took my mom all of about 10 seconds to jump up and call the front desk to tell them what was happening. Within about 5 minutes, someone pounded on their door and, needless to say, the yelling and hitting stopped. We were facing a parking lot and could somewhat see flashing lights through our closed window and assumed it was police, but we were afraid to check out of fear that guy might see us, know we called, and then come after us the next day. I have no idea what happened, but hopefully the guy got arrested and charged with abuse. Never heard another sound out of that room after that night, so we assumed they either left or he did indeed get arrested.

In a situation like that, I'd say call the front desk since they should know the best way to inform police or security of where exactly to go since the resorts can be spread out. If no one comes out, then I'd call 911.

It's disgusting to me that people like this are allowed to keep their children.

 

[Michelle2]

To the OP, I cried when I read your post because I have a baby that just turned 3. It truly broke my heart . And I know that if I was in your DD shoes, it would have affected me the same as it did her. I hope that she will be ok. And I hope that the little boy is ok too, but I know that is hoping for alot.....

 

[Lucky4me]

Absolutely abuse. I know it's all hindsight, but if it ever happens again, do something. Anything to put attention on the parent and get them to stop hurting the child. it won't make it worse for the child. They're going to get hurt regardless. May as well try to stop it for the time being.
I would have got in the abusers ear and told her I was undercover security. If she didn't stop right this minute, I was going to have to arrest her as soon as she got off the bus. That there were hidden cameras all over Disney property and now they would be watching her. I did this once in 1997. It was August and about 99 degrees. The 4yo was clearly over heated and the Father kept smacking him across the head because he was whining. It worked. He stopped, but I did get off the bus and follow them to their room just to make sure he didn't do it again. He saw me at a food court later in the week and kept looking away while I stared him down. I must have been convincing.

I know I didn't do anything to save or really help that poor child, I'm sure he went right back to abusing behind closed doors, but it doesn't matter to me. I will always interfere if I see a child being hurt. I called security this past December on a room nearby us at POP. A child was clearly being hit by an out of control parent. The noise stopped, but we didn't see any cops come. Cops would have made my night because I know they would have been arrested and the child would have been safe, at least for awhile.

One time I called the police on a woman in Sears who had 5 kids with her. She kept knocking her 3 or 4yo to the floor and calling him a little b__tard. He'd stand up and BAM she'd knock him right down again. I didn't let her know I knew what was going on, but followed her. I stayed on the phone with the police operator and told them where we were until they got there 15 minutes later. All 5 kids backed me up and said yes, Mommy was knocking their little brother down. They said she was hitting them too, even though I didn't see that myself. They took her away and put the kids in two cop cars.

This topic makes me so angry and incredibly sad. Child abuse happens everywhere, even WDW.

 

[Tanuki]

The best thing to do in that situation is to call security. It's not up to you to be the judge of whether child abuse is taking place. They have child protective services for that. Most states hold the reporter not liable for reporting suspected child abuse to the authorities. You don't have to be the judge and jury. It isn't up to you to confront the parent. You just have to bring it to the attention of authorities.

Grabbing a child by the hair is where the parent crossed the line. Spanking is one thing - that hair grabbing move is where it escalated over the line to a "beating" which is illegal.

The other thing which I wonder is if Disney has security cameras which would have caught the incident on tape. If they had - those parents would have been in very hot water.

 

[dmslush]

OP, I am a mandated reported (means by law, I have to report child abuse). When I was training on spotting abuse, I was taught that spanking and yelling are subjective. While some people think that spanking and yelling are abuse, other's don't. I am too use my own judgement before reporting that. I have spanked my child, and a quick swat on the behind is not abuse to me. I have yelled at my child, but screaming and cussing are abuse in my book. Also, if you slap (which mom did if I read correctly), kick, bite, or pull the hair of (mom did) a child, it is abuse. You were right to report it to someone, and I am sorry that you didn't have a confident person who knew what to do.

Have faith that if she did that in front of all of you, she will do it again in front of someone with access to security and she will be caught.

 

[bicker]

This does raise the issue, in my mind though, as to whether something like this should be so subjective, and so variable on who happens to be around when the incident occurs.

 

[PoohHappens]

I wanted to comment on something here. I agree that these parents crossed the line and were being abusive to the child, at least based on what was stated in the post as I did not see the incident. I will say as a parent however that I have been really struggling with the issue of what others think of my parenting. I have a very strong willed son who we have been working very dilligently with because we want him to grow into a confident yet self controlled individual. The problem I have been having is when we are in public. I am so uncomfortable reprimanding or carrying through a punishment for fear of other peoples interpretation of what I am doing to my child. Our son has been known to run away in a store or other similar things that are just not safe. When we try to put a stop to it he will scream and roar and kick like we are torturing him. I think he knows how to 'work it'. We had an incident a while back at target that involved my son wanting to walk independently in the parking lot. We finally picked him up and he screamed the whole way to the car. When we got to the car we discovered he had a dirty diaper and we changed it in the car with him screaming the whole time. After that we had to basically hold him down to get him buckled in his car seat. He continued to scream. We had in no way abused our child. We had only refused to let him have his way on issues that involved his safety. A woman continued to drive around our car giving us very dirty looks and eventually picked up her cell phone and made a call. I was very uncomfortable with this and felt horrible. Now if we were abusing our son would we want someone to be his advocate--yes. But I feel like I can't do anything in public because someone is ready to turn me in for being a responsible parent. Again, I realize that the info in the origional post is over the top and not acceptable. I just wanted people to remember that they may not always know the entire situation of what they are seeing. Again before you all flame me I do not find pulling hair and demeaning a child acceptable. Go ahead flame away at me now.

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

I know you did what you could--but given the opportunity of the parking lot....911 and a license plate # make excellent combinations.

I hope there isn't a next time that you'll have to use any tips.

I have lost my temper with my kids--but it is NEVER in public..usually at home.

Love those Nanny shows.

 

[seashoreCM]

Do local Social Services departments take visiting kids into protective custody?

Dial 911 anyone?

[Ramming with a stroller] is not an excuse for spending precious law enforcement resources.

Causing bodily injury (or apparently causing injury) is definitely child abuse and definitely the time to summon law enforcement.

Disney hints:
http://members.aol.com/ajaynejr/disney.htm

Heard often on the Howie Carr show (Boston, MA, WRKO 680): Sound bite of Mayor Thomas Menino, "If you see something suspicious diall 911"

 

[mickeymel]

I work for dept of social services and that would have definately been crossing the line. They may not have been charged, but would have been required by the court to enter preventive foster care program to observe the situation.
I think I would have gotten their license plate number and maybe even discreetly followed them to see where they were staying and called 911 or DSS. My fellow busmates would have to be willing to speak with 911 also. It is always very scary to think that anyone can call 911 or DSS on anyone else, but if they do that in public....can you imagine what they are doing in private. It truly scares me how children are treated. (I am not talking proper discipline or the occasional mommy has lost her mind kind of thing, but an everyday you are a bad kid kind of attitude).

I also can get frustrated, but the adult needs to realize when THEY need a time out. A baby doesn't care if they aren't coming back to see Mickey. THey care if they are going to feel they have someone to love them and comfort them.

 

[Ready to go in Ok]

Similar to the previous poster, I was a child abuse investigator for several years before I moved to another state. I am not sure what the statutes in FL. are for child abuse, but in any situation, in any state, if you suspect child abuse you should report it. In this case, it was next to impossible, due to the circumstances, and the OP did everything right. Just wanted to chime in that any time anyone suspects, report it! It used to frustrate me to no end when I did investigations to find out that abuse had been happening for years, but no one reported it because they weren't sure if it was abuse or not. You can report abuse anonymously and let the CPS workers make the determination. Ok, getting off of my soapbox now.

 

[tkldisney]

There is a great book "How to Raise Your Spirited Child" it is amazing. It has some wonderful advice as to why kids do what they do, and how to handle the situation without spanking or yelling. It really works!!!!!!! All yelling & spanking does is teach your children that this type of behavior is acceptable. You have to have a license to drive, I think you need one to parent too, because people are clueless!

 

[SqueakyMouse]

This was definitely child abuse. However, if you if even suspect abuse, you should report it -- call 911 or DSS. My husband is a glorified social worker (supervises the court placed foster children in therapeutic care for our region) and I am a public school administrator. By law, we HAVE to report any abuse we suspect to DSS. We will lose our licensure if we do not. The DSS in most (if not all) states has a 24 hour in-take/hot line. The person you will speak to is very friendly and helpful. They will get information about you (name, telephone number -- just basics) and what you witnessed. Once reported, the situation has to be reviewed. A supervisor will determine if the case needs to be investigated. Here, if a child's safety is threatened, police will be dispatched immediately. Otherwise, a home visit will be made within 24 hours. Of course, you will have to have some way of identifying the folks. In this case, a license plate number should have been sufficient to get the ball rolling. I'm surprised that WDW security did nothing. Given the number of families visiting the parks each day, I would think they would (sadly) be well-trained in dealing with these kinds of situations.

 

[tiggerlover77]

PoohHappens,

I completely understand what you are saying....my brother was a devil child when he was little and would embarrass the family frequently in stores and public places. When he wouldn't get his way sometimes he would throw himself on the flooor and just go overboard throwing a fit, my parents would of course pick him up off the floor and try to control him, there was never any hitting or actual abuse but to everyone else we probably looked like a crazy family. I totally agree that sometimes you don't know the whole story, but in this case it just seems wrong for these children to have to put up with this kind of treatment!!! Their only defense against their parents is us, people watching that can try to help them out.

I see you're from Indy, I live in Lafayette

 

[mrslur]

I'm 45 now but speaking as one who was abused as a child my brothers and I would have given anything if someone had reported our mother.