When in laws cause problems

[eliza61]

I think he truly believes his brother is in this position because of bad luck, bad jobs, bad bosses, bad girlfriends parents, etc. I dont think he really sees that he is in this situation because of pure laziness and entitlement. I do think he wants his brother to have a better life, but I dont think he agrees that his brother needs to do it on his own. Until this man hits rock bottom and people start telling him no he will just continue...because apparently living on your mothers couch and begging your brother and his wife for their couch is a better option than just going to work.

and yes the entitlement goes WAY beyond just his brother, MIL is an alcoholic and a hoarder and the entire family enables her as well.

Actually though the " cure" is the same. My brother had the same issues because of his addiction. You know when he got clean and sober? When no one in the family would help him. No more money, no more meals, warm coach nothing. When he literally had no where but the streets to go to that's when he got help.

Some times NO is the best word for them.

 

[Pea-n-Me]

It sounds like your husband's family is very dysfunctional. Dysfunctional homes are similar to alcoholic homes: people growing up in them don't really learn what "normal" is. This would be an area to explore with your husband - in a loving way. It may involve professional counseling, but there are also books and workbooks available.

ETA This is just one very quick example, but where do your DH and BIL fit in here?

http://www.mudrashram.com/dysfunctionalfamily2.html

 

[jdb in AZ]

When a chicken is hatching out of its shell, it's a lot of work but that's how the chick develops strength. If the mother hen or a human helps the chick out, it seems like such a little thing to pull away shell fragments, and they're just trying to be helpful, but then the chick doesn't gain the strength needed for life's daily activities -- the chick is weak. Your BIL is very weak, but can develop some moral muscle by learning to do things for himself. It's hard for helpful relatives to stand back and watch the "chick" develop, but until the chick is "allowed" to help himself, how and when will he ever be able to stand on his own?

We have a family member whose drug problems (and other addictive behaviors) have cost him -- big time, but we've helped him as much as we're willing to do. Right now he wants some $$$ to move across the country to join his girl friend with similar problems. Part of us wish he WOULD move that far away, but the couple have a toxic relationship and her family doesn't want him there, any more than we want her here. One of his reasons for moving would be to escape the 7 warrants for his arrest, and we're through bailing him out.

 

[teller80]

When a chicken is hatching out of its shell, it's a lot of work but that's how the chick develops strength. If the mother hen or a human helps the chick out, it seems like such a little thing to pull away shell fragments, and they're just trying to be helpful, but then the chick doesn't gain the strength needed for life's daily activities -- the chick is weak.

Wow, that is a great analogy.

 

[Grmnshplvr]

It sounds like your husband's family is very dysfunctional. Dysfunctional homes are similar to alcoholic homes: people growing up in them don't really learn what "normal" is. This would be an area to explore with your husband - in a loving way. It may involve professional counseling, but there are also books and workbooks available.

ETA This is just one very quick example, but where do your DH and BIL fit in here?

http://www.mudrashram.com/dysfunctionalfamily2.html

this was a good read. This hit home "The paradoxical thing about the Enabler's behavior is that by preventing the Dependent's crisis, he or she also prevents the painful, corrective experience that crisis brings, which may be the only thing that makes the Dependent stop the downward spiral of addiction." My husband BIL grew up in a very dysfunctional home. Parents divorced, alcoholic mother who never worked, family bailed her out numerous times, moving from apartment to apartment, no electricity or food. There never was stability. My husband and I literally grew up together, I saw all this play out from the very beginning. I would say now my husband is the "hero" but I see several parts of him in all of these really. It has changed as he's gotten older and more mature and responsible. He certainly wasn't always this way, the first few years of our marriage were rough. He was extremely immature and irresponsible for his age. Luckily by the time he got to his mid twenties he really came to reality of what he was going to lose if it didn't stop and has been great ever since but it really took me putting my foot down for him to make that change. No one has done this for his brother so here he is at 40 continuing the same behavior and poor decisions and somehow ended up with a partner that is exactly like he is. No job, living at home at 40. Luckily they do not have children in this mess

 

[Andtototoo]

I am so glad that my dh eventually understood that certain people in his family were manipulative moochers. The worst one is a sibling. The spouse is the same way. Together are are quite the team. Very effective con artists, IMO. They have conned the spouse's family out of over $1 million in cash and are currently working on getting a free house because that family cannot or will not see that they are manipulative mooches who have -- neither of them -- never worked a full week's work IN THEIR LIVES. It's sickening, really, but at a certain point, blindness is a choice.

So. OP, I am firmly on your side. I have seen first hand how once these types of people get a toehold, they are stuck to you for a very long time and how they will ever after have on their list of potential resources. If you give in once, they will never stop coming back to the trough.

 

[usd2bmd]

Yep, sorry that your husband is being this way.
His brother is an adult and is making his own choices.
Live and let live.
But when it comes to somebody living in my home.
And, it is YOUR home.

The BIL is not the issue.
This is not an in-law rant.
This is not an in-law issue.
This is a marriage issue, between your husband and yourself.

This should not be how lame your BIL is.
It should not be about any negative Personal opinions.
Because, if it is, guaranteed, yes, your husband will be defensive, and there will be no agreement.

Have you just said, very simply, this person will not be in my and my children's home.
He is your brother, and I respect that, and you can have whatever relationship you want with him.
But, he will not be in my home.
Period.
Lather, rinse, repeat???

If you were to be able to pull that off, what would your husband's reaction be?

I do hope that the two of you can work this out!!!

This exactly.

 

[barkley]

your bil could be my brother-only my brother is in his mid 60's and was couch surfing (and mooching off) at mom's (after he burned through all his friends and those family members he could) for the final 22 years of mom's life (my other brother and I were left to deal with getting him out of his illegal couch surfing living arrangement at mom's senior apartment after she passed). mom was a classic enabler as were the others he burned through (some didn't realize it until after they had gotten burned). I have no contact with him nor does my other brother in large part b/c he knows we won't enable his bad choices.


one thing I will STRONGLY suggest-have a direct conversation w/your husband and insist he tell you if he's given bil the green light to come over after you've left on vacation b/c you don't want to put your neighbor/relative in the position of having to deal with this if bil technically has permission from your dh to stay there. if your dh says he hasn't then I would advise him that given that both of you are on the same page w/this you are going to leave a note with your neighbor/relative that indicates you (dh and yourself) have specifically told him he can't go into your home in your absence so that if she sees him there she can call the police and report breaking and entering. if your dh says he has given permission or won't commit to an answer then I would seriously consider canceling my vacation-no way would I be able to enjoy being away from home knowing the situation that could be both occurring while I was gone and what I might be coming home to (in my experience those that do this type of lifestyle are very well versed in knowing how to use the law on their behalf-in one family member's case my brother was able to get free legal aide to prevent him being put out while the issue of determining if he was a tenant was hashed out, and when it was determined he was not there was another extending his stay try with the concept of 'squatters rights').

it may seem extreme but in my experience extreme measures and taking a firm stand on these issues is the best self protection mechanism (and I too had young kids when this was going on w/my brother-kids I didn't want to be exposed to a bad lifestyle example).

 

[sunnyday123]

Actually though the " cure" is the same. My brother had the same issues because of his addiction. You know when he got clean and sober? When no one in the family would help him. No more money, no more meals, warm coach nothing. When he literally had no where but the streets to go to that's when he got help.

Some times NO is the best word for them.

This will be how my brother gets his life straight. He's mooched off my father and mother his entire life, stolen money and jewelry from them and made them worry on their deathbeds. I no longer speak to him and I'm convinced he'll either OD, or get a bad batch of herion. I'll never forgive him and I'll burn my house down before he lived in it. I would absolutely not cater to your husbands brother and we'd have to have a very serious talk about his continuing to ask if he could stay/live with us.

 

[kamik86]

I have a sister that is similar to this... except she has never asked to live with me. She is sister1 lived with my parents and all my other siblings though.

She will never live with me.

She does have a job but it doesn't pay great so she continues to live off others so she doesn't have to spend her money on anything but herself.

 

[deedeetoo]

No way would I allow him in or enable this behavior. You have to stand your ground.

I also have a somewhat similar story, though the big difference is that DH and I were 100% in agreement on how to handle it. My MIL died about 10 years ago. DH has two older brothers that had never moved out of their mother's house. They were both in their 50's at the time and were still living at home with my MIL when she died. They had occasionally held minimum wage type jobs but had never really kept a job for long, never worked full time, and never anything more than minimum wage. Any money they made was considered their spending money (as if they were teenagers) and they never had to contribute to the household in any way. There was no reason they couldn't work other than laziness. After MIL died, the house needed to be sold and these guys needed to find a place to go. The big extended family all jumped in suggesting that they come live with us. When we pointed out that we only had a small three bedroom house and we had two young children, one relative even suggested that we should get an apartment for the two of them and pay for it, since after all, we have jobs and money. You should have heard the uproar when we said no to all of it. We told the family that these guys were adults and it was time they started taking care of themselves. We were accused of being selfish and uncaring. Fortunately, as I said before, DH and I were completely in agreement with it. The two brothers managed to find other people, outside the family, to leach off of. Sadly, one BIL has since died of a heart attack. He left $60,000 in credit card balances and no assets.

 

[Grmnshplvr]

your bil could be my brother-only my brother is in his mid 60's and was couch surfing (and mooching off) at mom's (after he burned through all his friends and those family members he could) for the final 22 years of mom's life (my other brother and I were left to deal with getting him out of his illegal couch surfing living arrangement at mom's senior apartment after she passed). mom was a classic enabler as were the others he burned through (some didn't realize it until after they had gotten burned). I have no contact with him nor does my other brother in large part b/c he knows we won't enable his bad choices.


one thing I will STRONGLY suggest-have a direct conversation w/your husband and insist he tell you if he's given bil the green light to come over after you've left on vacation b/c you don't want to put your neighbor/relative in the position of having to deal with this if bil technically has permission from your dh to stay there. if your dh says he hasn't then I would advise him that given that both of you are on the same page w/this you are going to leave a note with your neighbor/relative that indicates you (dh and yourself) have specifically told him he can't go into your home in your absence so that if she sees him there she can call the police and report breaking and entering. if your dh says he has given permission or won't commit to an answer then I would seriously consider canceling my vacation-no way would I be able to enjoy being away from home knowing the situation that could be both occurring while I was gone and what I might be coming home to (in my experience those that do this type of lifestyle are very well versed in knowing how to use the law on their behalf-in one family member's case my brother was able to get free legal aide to prevent him being put out while the issue of determining if he was a tenant was hashed out, and when it was determined he was not there was another extending his stay try with the concept of 'squatters rights').

it may seem extreme but in my experience extreme measures and taking a firm stand on these issues is the best self protection mechanism (and I too had young kids when this was going on w/my brother-kids I didn't want to be exposed to a bad lifestyle example).

No way would I allow him in or enable this behavior. You have to stand your ground.

I also have a somewhat similar story, though the big difference is that DH and I were 100% in agreement on how to handle it. My MIL died about 10 years ago. DH has two older brothers that had never moved out of their mother's house. They were both in their 50's at the time and were still living at home with my MIL when she died. They had occasionally held minimum wage type jobs but had never really kept a job for long, never worked full time, and never anything more than minimum wage. Any money they made was considered their spending money (as if they were teenagers) and they never had to contribute to the household in any way. There was no reason they couldn't work other than laziness. After MIL died, the house needed to be sold and these guys needed to find a place to go. The big extended family all jumped in suggesting that they come live with us. When we pointed out that we only had a small three bedroom house and we had two young children, one relative even suggested that we should get an apartment for the two of them and pay for it, since after all, we have jobs and money. You should have heard the uproar when we said no to all of it. We told the family that these guys were adults and it was time they started taking care of themselves. We were accused of being selfish and uncaring. Fortunately, as I said before, DH and I were completely in agreement with it. The two brothers managed to find other people, outside the family, to leach off of. Sadly, one BIL has since died of a heart attack. He left $60,000 in credit card balances and no assets.

Since we both work full time we're considered "rich" in his family. We have a fairly small home, 2 kids, 2 large dogs and a cat so we do not have the extra room regardless. We are far from rich. We each drive a used car, are able to pay our bills and have been frugal enough to afford a couple vacations to Disney. We cannot afford to take in another person even if we wanted to without sacrificing the small luxuries we do allow ourselves. And yes this is the same situation - he has worked park time, minimum wage jobs but that money always goes towards concerts and video games, doesn't give his very poor mother a dime to live there with her. Its just ridiculous. I can see it...but for some reason no one else can. When he called my husband and told him his girlfriends parents were finally kicking him out DH drove 4 hours to go pick him up and everything he owned fit into 2 garbage bags and in the back of DH's altima. 40 years old and has nothing of his own.

 

[NewRVLady]

Honestly OP-is he into booze or drugs?
Being homeless and living on peoples couches is terrible
I would worry he would pawn things in your home for $$
no way-no how-would I allow this!

 

[Grmnshplvr]

Honestly OP-is he into booze or drugs?
Being homeless and living on peoples couches is terrible
I would worry he would pawn things in your home for $$
no way-no how-would I allow this!

No he has never done drugs and doesn't drink alcohol even socially. He truly is just lazy.

 

[bdcp]

He needs to grow up and it's not helping him when people allow him to stay with them. I think your husband needs to put you and your children first and not allow your BIL to come into your house. As pp said, everyone just needs to tell him NO and stick to it.

Does your DH really believe it's "bad luck"? No one has that much bad luck.

 

[superme80]

I totally feel for you OP. My sister is similar. She always has some reason why she can't work. It has been like this since she was a teenager. And now that she really can't work, she is living off of disability and family. I told her that once our parents pass I am not bailing her out. She got horribly offended, but I am standing my ground. Keep saying no. I also think that if he moved in for a week, he would not leave.

 

[sonnyjane]

This will be how my brother gets his life straight. He's mooched off my father and mother his entire life, stolen money and jewelry from them and made them worry on their deathbeds. I no longer speak to him and I'm convinced he'll either OD, or get a bad batch of herion. I'll never forgive him and I'll burn my house down before he lived in it. I would absolutely not cater to your husbands brother and we'd have to have a very serious talk about his continuing to ask if he could stay/live with us.

Same situation with both my brother and sister. 20 and 29 and both still at home, no jobs, all expenses paid by my mom, and lots of illegal activities to boot. I ended up cutting off my brother and sister completely and greatly reducing my contact with my mother. She wants to retire next year but absolutely can't if she continues to support them. It's infuriating.

OP, stand your ground and do NOT open this Pandora's box!

 

[teller80]

The big extended family all jumped in suggesting that they come live with us. When we pointed out that we only had a small three bedroom house and we had two young children, one relative even suggested that we should get an apartment for the two of them and pay for it, since after all, we have jobs and money. You should have heard the uproar when we said no to all of it.

lol - I would of suggested to the family that they take them in. You probably already know their response! I'm glad your DH was on your side.

 

[Wishing on a star]

He truly is just lazy.

OP, again, As I tried to mention and caution earlier... I would very strongly caution you against just issuing a negative judgement like "He is just LAZY."

From the little information that you have described, I would imagine that there are some much deeper issues than just laziness.
I was the first one who mentioned this kind of thing in my one earlier post.
And, very frequently, those with some pretty heavy issues or developmental disabilities are very unfortunately MIS-labeled as lazy.
(this is coming from a parent who knows a little about developmental disabilities)

I am not saying this to give ANY credit to this BIL.
Not at all.
Again, you are VERY correct to take the stand that this man will simply not be in your home.

What I am saying is that, whatever his issues might be, enabling him and/or calling him lazy, are not going to be the correct or effective way to deal with this. (and that seems to be the only two ways of dealing with him right now....)

And, just to put this out there.... in all reality, your husband is probably too close to the fire, or deep in the forest to see the trees, so that he might not have the ability to see things and handle these things the way they should be. It might be far too much to begin to expect him to be able to see and deal with this in an appropriate and firm way. Which is what I know you would like... But, might not be realistic.

 

[Wishing on a star]

Me again. As I read thru some of your more recent info... there is alcoholism, hoarding, enabling, co-dependency, and possibly much much more, running thru this family.

Again, If you think that your husband might, at some point, be able to see the issues with his brother and to see any real 'truth', I think you might want to think twice.

Even though your husband has come a long way, considering his history and upbringing... do not assume that he is seeing reality the way most people would.

I am now wanting to go back to the initial observations and comments that were given to you, re: This isn't an issue with your inlaws, this is an issue with your husband.

With all of these issues going on, and the fact that it is now affecting your family and your marriage, do you think that your husband might be willing to go into some counseling?

There just has to be a more positive and effective way you to try to handle this than "Your brother is a lazy #$#@@#$.

I do think that you can, and should, maintain that boundary that this man will not be in your home. If your husband's inability to see these issues and to come to an agreement means that this has to become a direct order or ultimatum, then unfortunately, that might possibly be the case.