When does a religion become a cult ?

[Aidensmom]

So, for those few of you that do not have a problem with how this organization operates, what about the kids ?

Unless a member of that organization is a DIS member, I don't know if you are going to find someone that says this is OK. No one should be protected from illegal actions just because they call themselves a religion.

 

[lewdyan1]

My husband often wonders if he needs to call a cult de-programmer as he thinks I have been sucked into the DIS-cult!

But really, I did see this last night and I was horrified by it. I was glad she got out and got the kids!

 

[brerrabbit]

This is a cult. Organized Religion are not cults as long as they do not fit into definitions of a cult offered earlier in this post. One of the main things I look for when religious orders border on being a cult is the leader of the sect. God makes it very clear to follow no other God but him. Cult leaders most often represent themselves as a sort of living God. They are extremely charismatic and have an uncanny ability to lure the weaker minded and people that feel they are oppressed. This unfortunatley describes some of the most evil leaders the world has ever known, Hitler, Lenin, etc. Unfortunatlely this also describes some of the best leaders the world has ever known Churchill, Rossevelt, etc. The only differance is the ultimate goal of their efforts. Another major differance between organized Religions and cults are the fact that cults make the leader the most important thing while organised Religion make the word of God the most important thing.

I won't get into a discussion of the Church of Latter Day Saints (the okay one, not this bunch in Arizona) because most Christians feel that it has many cultlike characteristics and does not follow many Christian beliefs. That being said if you take the extreme sect of this religion in Arizona and take it even further you get really crazy bunch.

The definition of a cult is something that has been discussed for years and there has become a very defined way of viewing organizations to determine whether they are a cult or not. Without that detailed look many organizations in todays society could easily be viewed as cultlike.

 

[va32h]

So, for those few of you that do not have a problem with how this organization operates, what about the kids ?

I don't think anyone here is saying that they "don't have a problem" with these groups - the problem is being able to charge them with some kind of crime.

It isn't illegal for an adult woman to be submissive to her husband. Polygamy is illegal - but many of these groups have "spiritual marriages" and as long as you don't file multiple marriage licenses, you can have as many spiritual marriages as you want!

Child abuse and sexual abuse are certainly crimes, but proving this requires a complaining witness and evidence. In this country, the police cannot storm into your house and ask your children if they are being molested. So they have to wait (hope) that someone comes forward to volunteer the info.

Didn't one of these Mormon splinter groups just recently have their leader convicted of multiple counts of sexual abuse? He jumped bail, I remember reading a news article about that.

Even simple social services calls are difficult, because if these groups are that insular - babies will be born at home, with no birth certificate, no social security number - no record of their existence.

One group in Arizona did get broken up - because the women did enter the system; applying for a receiving welfare benefits as single mothers. When the state discovered that all these women had children by the same man, they sued him for repayment of the welfare payments, and arrested the women for fraud.

So the problem is really finding something to charge them with -- it's not illegal merely to belong to a strange religion.

 

[WDWHound]

My opinion won't be popular but IMO all organized religion's/church's are clut-like. When you blindley follow a church's teachings, imo it is no different then being in a cult.

If an organized religion demanded blind following, I would agree with you. However, I know of few organized religions that do this. My denomination (Methodism) actively encourages its members to research the sources of its doctrines, to discuss them with others and to come to thier own conclusions. You are not required to accept all the doctrines of the church. Quite the opposite. We want people to take part in the Church because they have a good understanding of the various beleifs out there and have decided that they beleive in most of the doctrines our church teaches.

To answer the original question, I think the list Jenny posted is a good one. I beleive any organization any of the following would be a cult:

1) Does not allow you to leave voluntarily.
2) Does not allow you to research and question their doctrines.
4) Promote illegal practices
5) Seeks to isolate its members
6) Demands the submission of all your assets.

The group the OP described fits nearly all of these criteria, and would definitely be a cult in my book, at least by modern definitions. The definition of the word cult has changed alot in the last 100 years. It didn't always describe just the controlling, negative groups, but it has come to be limited to groups like the one we are discussing in most peoples mind.

 

[minniepumpernickel]

Do they still do polygamy? I thought that it was against the law? I hope that I can watch this.

I volunteered at a blood drive at a Mormon church awhile back. The people where so nice to me, they treated me as if I was already one of the clan. They gave me phone numbers and asked me to lunch. It was a particularly vulnerable time for me, because I was a little depressed. One woman told me her story about how she ended up living up here, the clan kind of adopted her after her husband kicked her out!

Do you think that they were trying to recruit me?

 

[cardaway]

Of course there is a line between mainstream religion and a cult, but IMO the line many times isn't as thick as the members of either would have you believe.

Ask any members of the cult if they belong to a cult. If they say no, who are we to say they are?

Personally I would love it if somebody was to save the children from these groups, but IMO the question is where you would stop. Not everybody agrees children from mainstream religions should be left in that religion.

We already have divorcing parents going to court to get children away from different religions. Do we allow third parties to do this as well?

 

[WDWHound]

Of course there is a line between mainstream religion and a cult, but IMO the line many times isn't as thick as the members of either would have you believe.

Ask any members of the cult if they belong to a cult. If they say no, who are we to say they are?

Personally I would love it if somebody was to save the children from these groups, but IMO the question is where you would stop. Not everybody agrees children from mainstream religions should be left in that religion.

We already have divorcing parents going to court to get children away from different religions. Do we allow third parties to do this as well?

This one is actually fairly clear cut for me. If you can legally demonstrate abuse of children, then a thrid party has the right to step in. This means things like sexual abuse, starvation, violence. unsafe living conditions or lack of education in most cases. If you cant demonstrate abuse using our code of laws, then we have no right to tell the parents how to raise their children simply becuase we distrust their beleif system.

Take the case of David Koresh. The kids in his compound met state home schooling requirements, were well fed and cared for and their living conditions were safe (up until the government stepped in). I would have been for leaving them in this situation (as much as I didn't like it and considered it a cult), but it turns out the likely some sexual abuse going on, so I feel the kids needed to be rescued.

 

[RadioNate]

I saw the show - these are not run of the mill Mormon's. The devotion to Warren Jeffs is sickening. I believe he is the man Va32h mentioned. I don't know if he jumped bail per say but he is definately wanted on multiple counts of sexual abuse and I think child rape.

This sect does now have an 'outsider' watching for underaged spiritual marriages. I felt horrible for the kids.

The woman they profiled was sexually abused by her father. He fully admits it and I think he went to jail for a time. He basically said he didn't think it was wrong. While he did apologize IMO he tried to make it clear that he was born into this way of life and since that's the way they do things he thought it was ok.

Last year I think they arrested several men for sexual abuse steming from the forced plural marriage of underaged girls.

I can't imagine being 13 or 14 and being forced into a marriage with a 40+ year old man.

I'm glad she and her children got out. It is going to be a long road for them since the women are denied an education.

 

[cardaway]

This one is actually fairly clear cut for me. If you can legally demonstrate abuse of children, then a thrid party has the right to step in. This means things like sexual abuse, starvation, violence. unsafe living conditions or lack of education in most cases. If you cant demonstrate abuse using our code of laws, then we have no right to tell the parents how to raise their children simply becuase we distrust their beleif system.

But all of that is separate of the cult situation. In most cases the issues are borderline, falling on the side of them not breaking the law, with the true objection being the affiliation with a "cult".

If this were to start happening the minority religions should get real nervous about the power the majority religions would have.

 

[WDWHound]

But all of that is separate of the cult situation. In most cases the issues are borderline, falling on the side of them not breaking the law, with the true objection being the affiliation with a "cult".

If this were to start happening the minority religions should get real nervous about the power the majority religions would have.

But if the only objection is membership in the cult, than only the parents have a right to take legal action. I don't like it, but it has to be that way. If the government starts saying you cant raise your kids in a certain religious setting when nothing illegal is going on, then it crosses a dangerous line. In short, it would allow the governemnt to determine whatn is and isn't a valid religious lifestyle.

Remember that the Supreme court has determine Atheism to be a religion, so this could be dangerous to everyone, not just member of mainstream religions or cults.

 

[zagafi]

I read an article recently about this group and how Jeffs essentially removes all young boys who "step out of line" by kicking them out of their homes. These are 13, 14 year old kids who suddenly become homeless because of this sicko. Apparently, there are many, many of these boys out west in this situation. It was really very sad to read and even sadder to think their parents are so brainwashed that they'd allow their children to be ripped away like that.

 

[Goobergal99]

I don't know when the government decides that religion is a cult. But In all honesty, every religion has cult like attributes.

The Branch Davidians were extreme seventh day adventists

Alot of the Catholic faith is pagan (statue worshiping from it's roman roots) I myself am a recovering catholic and I must say that I found alot of it to be kind of primative.

I really don't want to offend anyone, everybody has a right to their beliefs but anything when taken to the extreme can become dangerous. Thats why it's better to take EVERYTHING with a grain of salt.

There is nothing wrong with believing in something because it makes you feel good (thats what faith should be about)but when it starts to dictate your life and cause more fear then joy, then it has become dangerous.

 

[Viking]

When does a religion become a cult ?

Wow, there's a difference? I never saw one.
The only difference I can see is that successful cults are considered a religion and the members of those call the members of se not so successful a cult.

 

[Daxx]

When they ask you to drink the kool-aide.

 

[powellrj]

But do all that participate in organized churches really blindly follow the teachings? I sure as heck don't, and don't know one person who does.

I am sure that person does exist, and would agree with you in that they have created a cult-like relationship with that particular religious group if they think like that, but I don't know any of them.

I live in the bible belt and most people I know belong to a church, but I don't know any person who blindly follows the teachings. Most use the church as a foundation for their lives. Thats not to say these groups don't exist, I am just saying that this doesn't apply to most mainstream religions in my area.

 

[auntpolly]

The mormons on acid refered to in the OP are a cult and everyone knows it -- the states of Utah and Colorado refuse to deal with them for whatever reason. I've read that they just wouldn't know what to do with all those kids it they jailed all the parents.

A normal religion isn't so secretive -- it has no problem letting the outside world what it's doing.

 

[Traumawolves]

 

[auntpolly]

Are you stalking me?

 

[Disney Doll]

There have been a couple of very good posts on this thread with very specific "criteria" of the difference between a religion and a cult.

Contrary to the beliefs of those of you who feel that there should be no religions, not every religion is a cult, unless it is taken to the extreme. Of course, that is true of every situation...extremism is always dangerous, in either direction, either too liberal or too conservative.

I would say that when your religion begins to actively take away your personal freedoms, it is a cult. Now of course, someone is going to bring up birth control and the Catholic Church, so let's lay the cards on the table...yes, the Catholic Church is against birth control. Yes, they activley campaign against birth control. But, last time I checked, there was no one from the Catholic Church rounding up all the Catholics who practice birth control and keeping them in a compound out in the wilderness of Arizona to limit their access to birth control and "watch" them to make sure they didn't use birth control.

That is when it becomes a cult.

When some guy tells you to drink the Kool-Aid and you do, you're in a cult.

Truthfully, I would like to think that most pretty normal people in the world have a "sense" of what's a dangerous cult and what's a different belief system.