What would you have done?

[dez1978]

I haven't read all the pages of this, just the last couple. My kids went back in person thankfully in Aug 2020. Being an essential employee, I didn't have the ability to WFH. My kids were still going to daycare everyday, bc we had no choice. I am not sure why daycare was ok and "safe" but school was not. I am fortunate that our daycare remained open the entire time, so that I could go to work.
I do feel really badly for the kids who missed an entire year or 2 due to the shutdowns. My teacher friends tell me all the time how far behind kids are even just missing those 3 months in 2020, trying to do virtual schooling. I feel even worse for the families who lost a loved one and weren't able to be with them at the end, and those who died alone.

For what it's worth, where I work, you can still come to work even after testing positive, as long as you wear an N95. And most do, because they don't have a weeks worth of sick time.

 

[dez1978]

And that very thought, having a different opinion or thought automatically negating people from being friends, is one of our country's big failings in very recent years. Divisive, corroding the ideals of our country that we can have differences of opinion, and still be friends. Very sad where we've arrived in so very few years.

Well, sorry Dan, that's just the way it is. For me personally, this has NOTHING to do with a "corrosion of ideals" or a "difference of opinion". I saw what the school closures and forced isolation did to my kids. They have a long way to go before they recover mentally and nobody is even acknowledging it. Not over it - not by a long shot. I don't know if you have kids or what their situation was, but I would certainly not expect you to feel any differently.

@lumpy I can agree with your thoughts on the shutdowns and how it affected kids. But I also 100% agree with Dan that this whole attitude of "If you don't 100% agree with me we can't be friends!" is one of the biggest issues we have right now. My best friend and I disagree on a huge number of things like this, yet we still manage to be friends. And 99% of the time we can even have a discussion about it and why we feel the way we do about the things. Will we change each others minds? No, not likely. But we do manage to give each other an understanding and a feeling that my way isn't the only right way, and an acceptance for those who feel differently than we do. We (generally speaking) forgot how to have discussions with people about things we disagree about and now everything is black and white, this or that. We forgot that its ok for something to not be something you agree is right for you, but it can be ok for someone else.

 

[tink2424]

Is this not the media? Or are only some members of the media not doing their jobs?

Hopefully, we can all learn from the early pandemic and have a more effective response when the next novel illness arrives. After all, the next one may affect children more. I am not being pessimistic but realistic.

Yes, but how many of the main media (abc, nbc, NYtimes, Washington Post) will cover this?? How many will have "experts" on to confirm these findings? How many will admit they got the reporting wrong? It all plays a factor. So just because one outlet or a few report on it doesn't mean we don't have a systemic issue with media. Unfortunately almost all media is biased (both conservative & liberal).

@lumpy I can agree with your thoughts on the shutdowns and how it affected kids. But I also 100% agree with Dan that this whole attitude of "If you don't 100% agree with me we can't be friends!" is one of the biggest issues we have right now. My best friend and I disagree on a huge number of things like this, yet we still manage to be friends. And 99% of the time we can even have a discussion about it and why we feel the way we do about the things. Will we change each others minds? No, not likely. But we do manage to give each other an understanding and a feeling that my way isn't the only right way, and an acceptance for those who feel differently than we do. We (generally speaking) forgot how to have discussions with people about things we disagree about and now everything is black and white, this or that. We forgot that its ok for something to not be something you agree is right for you, but it can be ok for someone else.

100% THIS!!!

Why can't you disagree with someone anymore? I am able to do this with my friends and it makes for a more informed and more full life. I would hate to just have people in my life that agree with me. We all make each other better when we share and more importantly when we listen. We don't have to agree but you may just learn something.

 

[sam_gordon]

It is very clear to most parents that closing schools have damaged children and in some cases the kids won't be able to overcome their issues.

I agree closing schools damaged SOME children. I think blaming it on the teacher's union wanting power is a little out there though.

Let's say you have a crystal ball. There's a pandemic coming. If you close the schools, 10%(?) of kids will "suffer", but not get sick. However, if you keep them open, 10% of teachers will get sick, some with lasting issues, some will die. Which do you do?

I still say it's EASY after the fact to say "you should have done this" or "you shouldn't have done that". Not so easy when you DON'T have all of the necessary information (which they didn't have when they originally closed schools). And yes, I had two kids in HS, and one finishing college (studying to be a teacher, so the student teaching was pretty much 'cancelled' too).

 

[dez1978]

I agree closing schools damaged SOME children. I think blaming it on the teacher's union wanting power is a little out there though.

Let's say you have a crystal ball. There's a pandemic coming. If you close the schools, 10%(?) of kids will "suffer", but not get sick. However, if you keep them open, 10% of teachers will get sick, some with lasting issues, some will die. Which do you do?

I still say it's EASY after the fact to say "you should have done this" or "you shouldn't have done that". Not so easy when you DON'T have all of the necessary information (which they didn't have when they originally closed schools). And yes, I had two kids in HS, and one finishing college (studying to be a teacher, so the student teaching was pretty much 'cancelled' too).

I feel like all the school aged kids suffered in one way or another. I suppose it just depends on what you want to qualify as suffering. I don't know any kids who didn't suffer either emotionally or academically in one form or another. Missing their friends, being isolated, not getting the in person instruction they are used to. Seriously... My kids only missed 3 months, but they still suffered academically and emotionally.

 

[dcassetta]

Yes, but how many of the main media (abc, nbc, NYtimes, Washington Post) will cover this?? How many will have "experts" on to confirm these findings? How many will admit they got the reporting wrong? It all plays a factor. So just because one outlet or a few report on it doesn't mean we don't have a systemic issue with media. Unfortunately almost all media is biased (both conservative & liberal).

Washington Post
https://www.washingtonpost.com/education/2022/11/23/covid-research-remote-school-poverty/

New York Times
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/09/05/opinion/covid-learning-loss.html

ABC
https://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/children-hit-hardest-pandemic-now-big-kids-school-102878717



But, like the New York Magazine article, these are working with data after the fact.

 

[sam_gordon]

I feel like all the school aged kids suffered in one way or another. I suppose it just depends on what you want to qualify as suffering. I don't know any kids who didn't suffer either emotionally or academically in one form or another. Missing their friends, being isolated, not getting the in person instruction they are used to. Seriously... My kids only missed 3 months, but they still suffered academically and emotionally.

OK. I notice you didn't answer the question I posed. Do you close schools and potentially have kids suffer emotionally and/or academically or do you keep schools open and potentially have teachers and stuff suffer physically (possibly dying)?

 

[piglet1979]

I feel like all the school aged kids suffered in one way or another. I suppose it just depends on what you want to qualify as suffering. I don't know any kids who didn't suffer either emotionally or academically in one form or another. Missing their friends, being isolated, not getting the in person instruction they are used to. Seriously... My kids only missed 3 months, but they still suffered academically and emotionally.

I do agree that the closures were tough for some kids but not all. My daughter exceled at being home and they were virtual for almost a year. She has anxiety and school causes most of it. While home she was able to just focus on school work. She went from an average student to a student in all honors/AP classes and now she is taking college classes while in 11th grade. Emotionally she did so much better too. Her anxiety went way down during this time too.

My son on the other hand has some anxiety with everything. I couldn't get him to leave the house for awhile and then when he went back to school he was so nervous that he got sick before even getting into the building that day. But after that he got back to his normal self.

So I had both ends of the spectrum. Some kids did great and others did not. Frankly I think it harmed me more then anyone in my family. I still have a hard time in groups of people. I am slowly getting better with it but I still don't like it.

 

[dez1978]

OK. I notice you didn't answer the question I posed. Do you close schools and potentially have kids suffer emotionally and/or academically or do you keep schools open and potentially have teachers and stuff suffer physically (possibly dying)?

I always choose kids. Every time. Kids don't get choices. Adults do. I will always choose what is best for my kids even if it is not the best choice for me.

I wasn't avoiding your question exactly as much as I was trying to think how to answer it and not get in trouble.

 

[sam_gordon]

I always choose kids. Every time. Kids don't get choices. Adults do. I will always choose what is best for my kids even if it is not the best choice for me.

I wasn't avoiding your question exactly as much as I was trying to think how to answer it and not get in trouble.

Obviously I'm willing to sacrifice myself for my kids (or for any kids). But I'm not sure I'm willing to sacrifice other adults. And what kind of choices did you want the adults (teachers & administrators) to have? They could choose not to go to school? The teachers be remote and the students be in class? Then you still have janitors, bus drivers, lunch folks, etc.

The point I'm trying to make is it's not an easy decision. Sure, in hindsight, it's easy. That's like in March saying "I knew such and such team was going to win the Super Bowl", but making a prediction in August isn't so clear.

 

[dez1978]

I do agree that the closures were tough for some kids but not all. My daughter exceled at being home and they were virtual for almost a year. She has anxiety and school causes most of it. While home she was able to just focus on school work. She went from an average student to a student in all honors/AP classes and now she is taking college classes while in 11th grade. Emotionally she did so much better too. Her anxiety went way down during this time too.

My son on the other hand has some anxiety with everything. I couldn't get him to leave the house for awhile and then when he went back to school he was so nervous that he got sick before even getting into the building that day. But after that he got back to his normal self.

So I had both ends of the spectrum. Some kids did great and others did not. Frankly I think it harmed me more then anyone in my family. I still have a hard time in groups of people. I am slowly getting better with it but I still don't like it.

I can see that. Though personally, I believe that those who did better at home would be in the minority statistically speaking. Of course there will be kids who have anxiety or other issues who would do better home schooling. But then think how it affected you and your son and made your anxiety around others worse.

My friend is very much an introvert, and the whole lockdown thing turned it into full blown agoraphobia and she still struggles with it.

Any way you look at it, there will be peoplw who did wonderfully during the lockdown, and those who did horribly. There are some people who loved it and some who hated it. If I'd have had to work from home I'd have gone crazy and HATED every second of it. The isolation would have been horrible.

 

[leahgoogle]

I agree closing schools damaged SOME children. I think blaming it on the teacher's union wanting power is a little out there though.

Let's say you have a crystal ball. There's a pandemic coming. If you close the schools, 10%(?) of kids will "suffer", but not get sick. However, if you keep them open, 10% of teachers will get sick, some with lasting issues, some will die. Which do you do?

I still say it's EASY after the fact to say "you should have done this" or "you shouldn't have done that". Not so easy when you DON'T have all of the necessary information (which they didn't have when they originally closed schools). And yes, I had two kids in HS, and one finishing college (studying to be a teacher, so the student teaching was pretty much 'cancelled' too).

I agree with closing the schools when the pandemic was first recognized. We really didn't have much data on who would be affected. But, after the closure and summer months (5 months) there was more than enough data to warrant opening schools back up in-person. Our school board came to that conclusion and so did many others. Closing the schools the entire year and beyond after the initial lock-down was, well, overkill and very damaging to many children. If the adult staff didn't feel like it was safe for them to work, then that is their right to not come back. The kids should not have been punished for that. I absolutely feel that my kids fared so well because we got back to their normal routines that summer and following school year.

 

[AustinTink]

We don't need children to stay in bed all day or suffer from knowing that they brought a deadly virus home to other family members and that virus led to the death of one of those family members. Both scenarios are both detrimental to children and should never be repeated again.

This is the key right here. Both scenarios are detrimental. But, as a mother whose kid almost died from Covid I could not care less about anyone who complains that their kids were bored at home and suffered from lack of social interaction.

I know plenty of parents who formed learning pods to allow their children to continue having the interaction the kids needed. If someone’s child suffered from social withdrawal issues, there were ways to help with that during the pandemic. Parents just needed to get creative and make the right choices for their kids. This was not the school or government’s obligation during an unprecedented time in history where millions were dying.

 

[dcassetta]

I agree with closing the schools when the pandemic was first recognized. We really didn't have much data on who would be affected. But, after the closure and summer months (5 months) there was more than enough data to warrant opening schools back up in-person. Our school board came to that conclusion and so did many others. Closing the schools the entire year and beyond after the initial lock-down was, well, overkill and very damaging to many children. If the adult staff didn't feel like it was safe for them to work, then that is their right to not come back. The kids should not have been punished for that. I absolutely feel that my kids fared so well because we got back to their normal routines that summer and following school year.

No one was trying to punish kids. School districts were doing the best they could during an unprecedented time. Did some schools face different challenges than other schools? Of course. Did some children and families adapt more easily than others? Of course. Were some decisions better than others? Of course.

But, the idea that schools made decisions on purpose to hurt children is not tenable.

 

[Pea-n-Me]

as a mother whose kid almost died from Covid I could not care less about anyone who complains that their kids were bored at home and suffered from lack of social interaction.

I remember the difficulties you had with your son’s illness. And I hope he’s doing better now.

But I’m thinking you really didn’t mean this the way it comes across. As a Mom I’m sure you care about the other kids, too. Some kids became quite depressed and anxious and even suicidal from this; there were even cases of abuse when kids had to stay home in horrible environments, some who’ve never caught up with their learning, etc. I think what you meant is that as a Mom, you have to fight for your son’s rights, too, or no one else will, is that more what you meant? Because we have to all care about eachother! (Even though I know not everyone does. You, I feel differently about!)

As for school closures, I feel that, if you look back at when these decisions were made, before vaccines and when Covid was killing many, that they did the prudent thing, probably. And I also think that, should something like this happen again, there were lessons that were learned (pardon the pun), plus, the virus has become less virulent now and many have been vaccinated, etc. But I think there was also a lot learned about social isolation and remote learning and such. I hope we don’t ever have to experience anything like it again.

 

[leahgoogle]

No one was trying to punish kids. School districts were doing the best they could during an unprecedented time. Did some schools face different challenges than other schools? Of course. Did some children and families adapt more easily than others? Of course. Were some decisions better than others? Of course.

But, the idea that schools made decisions on purpose to hurt children is not tenable.

I never said they made decisions to hurt children on purpose. They did, however, ignore (or not consider) data available regarding the risk for children after the initial lockdown.

 

[dez1978]

This is the key right here. Both scenarios are detrimental. But, as a mother whose kid almost died from Covid I could not care less about anyone who complains that their kids were bored at home and suffered from lack of social interaction.

I know plenty of parents who formed learning pods to allow their children to continue having the interaction the kids needed. If someone’s child suffered from social withdrawal issues, there were ways to help with that during the pandemic. Parents just needed to get creative and make the right choices for their kids. This was not the school or government’s obligation during an unprecedented time in history where millions were dying.

I am sorry that you went thru this. But you also can't discount the rise in suicide rates for youth during the pandemic.

But depending on where you live, there may or may not have been ways to help the kids w/ social interaction. Some areas remained pretty locked down for several months. Not everyone lives in an area where learning pods is practical. Sure if you live in a city and knew other parents it could work. But for those who live rurally it didn't happen. I never heard of anything like this where we live. Now granted our school only has 700 kids k-12, and our district covers 190 square miles, so we are a pretty small, rural school. And if you had to still work in person everyday, then options were more limited.

 

[dcassetta]

I never said they made decisions to hurt children on purpose. They did, however, ignore (or not consider) data available regarding the risk for children after the initial lockdown.

You stated, "The kids should not have been punished for that." No one was trying to punish (or purposely hurt) kids.

There was not just one set of data to consider. School districts, and even individual schools, had different needs.

 

[leahgoogle]

You stated, "The kids should not have been punished for that." No one was trying to punish (or purposely hurt) kids.

There was not just one set of data to consider. School districts, and even individual schools, had different needs.

Again, saying kids should not have been punished doesn't mean I meant it was done on purpose. Many were punished by schools not opening even if not done on purpose. Those are the facts.

 

[dcassetta]

Again, saying kids should not have been punished doesn't mean I meant it was done on purpose. Many were punished by schools not opening even if not done on purpose. Those are the facts.

Language choice matters.