What would you do? Help needed

[Dancemom03]

I'm so sorry that you are going thru this. I know how stressful and heartbreaking problems with conception can be and wish there was something I could say that might help.

You don't say if you're catholic or not, but have you tried talking to your parish priest? I'm assuming if your DH is very religious, he's not what we call a "cafeteria catholic", so attends church regularly & has a relationship with one or more priests who could help counsel you. Perhaps if you called to make a solo appt first, you could then have a second meeting with your DH as well. After having met with quite a few priests in my lifetime, I know that opinions sometimes differ on some aspects of doctrine. Perhaps actually sitting down and discussing it with your priest might help both you and your DH as you work through this together.

I have close friends who needed IVF to concieve. They are very catholic - and I do mean VERY - as in the priest of our very large parish finds the time to eat dinner at their house every other week and stops by unexpectedly with donuts for coffee some mornings just to say hi. We tease her that if we ever need anything extraordinary, we're making her ask him over donuts. Their triplets are alter servers, and so active in the church community that we'd be hard pressed to imagine life without these three handsome young men.

I remember the struggle they had with the decision and the unexpected support shown by the parish. She likes to say "sometimes the Lord works in mysterious ways". I know from personal experience that she's right...

 

[Chernabog#1fan]

You are right on this and wrong. He went through all the proper paperwork before we were marriend with the church to have his marriage annulled. We have never used birth control and didn't have sex until marriage. Actually foreign adoption has the cut off at 40 something. He is 42. It is very hard because everyone of my friends has children. As a woman it is one of the first questions you are asked.

The age limit is not 40...For most foreign adoption it is 50 and for most domestic adoption it is 45.

Here is a site I went to regarding adoption from Catholic Charities which has received good feedback from other Dis people, http://www.catholiccharities-md.org/adoptions/pdfs/infopacket.pdf.

Also, another option might be to adopt an embryo if you want the experience of being pregnant.

 

[minkydog]

No, I wouldn't leave to find a sperm donor. I wonder if I'd be happier alone and know that I couldn't have children because I was alone vs. being with someone with children who can't give me children.

I have always known that I wanted to be mother. I envy anyone who doesn't have that strong drive.

PS: I broke down and am seeking the help of a professional on Monday. I also found out that my mom has lung cancer, so this is only one of my issues.

TAK, I'm glad you're going to see a counselor. This isn't the kind of decision that is easy to untangle. You're going to want some time to process it all. And with your mother so sick, this might be a good time to talk it all out. I'm sure there's a lot on your mind.

I went through something similar with my DH except that he didn't have children. We were married about 3 yrs when he announced that he didn't WANT children. Ever. Children were part of the deal when we got married. I was just sick.

I couldn't even process that at first. I gave him some time, a few months. Then I gave him an ultimatum: I'm GOING to have children, with you or without you. One year to make up his mind. He was He couldn't believe I'd walk out. But then I couldn't believe he had unilaterally decided that we would be childless, either.

So I do get your drive to have children. In the end, DH decided that he was scared to have a child, but that he really loved me. I ended up having several infertility problems and to his credit, DH stood by and supported me through it all. He did everything the doctor told him to do.

I think you have to ask yourself a few questions, like "what if I never have children? What happens then? who will I be?" Ask yourself if you'd really prefer to give up a good marriage in order to have the *possibility* of children. Some people might say yes. I certainly had to think about that. Ask yourself what happens if you do have a child and that child is disabled. Because you get what you get. Things to talk about Monday...

 

[TAKitty]

The age limit is not 40...For most foreign adoption it is 50 and for most domestic adoption it is 45.

Here is a site I went to regarding adoption from Catholic Charities which has received good feedback from other Dis people, http://www.catholiccharities-md.org/adoptions/pdfs/infopacket.pdf.

Also, another option might be to adopt an embryo if you want the experience of being pregnant.

Thank you for the information.

I just wanted to say that I am never offended by any of your opinions. I have lived this for so long that I honestly believe that I am no longer seeing things clearly.

I have never heard of embryo adoption. What is it?

Also, once my husband has made up his mind he sticks to it. The official church believes that IVF is wrong. The priest at our church could say whatever he wanted, but dh knows the official ruling.

 

[karibritt01]

Honestly, with your mother sick, I wouldn't choose now to leave the marriage no matter the outcome with adoption, IVF, etc. You are going to need lots of emotional support to get through this, and it is not a good time to throw more chaos into your life IMO. Go talk to a counselor, a priest, look into adoption... but don't make a major, life-altering decision while you are trying to deal with your mom's cancer. That can wait a bit.

 

[TAKitty]

I think you have to ask yourself a few questions, like "what if I never have children? What happens then? who will I be?" Ask yourself if you'd really prefer to give up a good marriage in order to have the *possibility* of children. Some people might say yes. I certainly had to think about that. Ask yourself what happens if you do have a child and that child is disabled. Because you get what you get. Things to talk about Monday...

You really hit the nail on the head. I have been asking myself "who am I without children?" Part of all of this is that I have to redefine my future--my dreams. I now want an adventure. I would like to move to Florida. I would like to maybe start a new career. He can't leave. He has two children that he needs to take care of. I am at a crossroads.

 

[TAKitty]

Honestly, with your mother sick, I wouldn't choose now to leave the marriage no matter the outcome with adoption, IVF, etc. You are going to need lots of emotional support to get through this, and it is not a good time to throw more chaos into your life IMO. Go talk to a counselor, a priest, look into adoption... but don't make a major, life-altering decision while you are trying to deal with your mom's cancer. That can wait a bit.

I understand that now is not the time to act. It has helped to talk about it here. Not many people know about our fertility issues so I have to hide my pain on a day to day basis.

 

[Disney Doll]

Just to impart some information about the doctrine of the Catholic Church...

An annullment is more than paperwork. Paperwork is part of the process, but an annullment is a process whereby the Church decides that a sacramental marriage (that being sacramental in the eyes of the Catholc Church) did not take place. The best description I ever heard of the difference between an annullment and a divorce was that an annullment was for what wasn't there at the beginning and a divorce covered what wasn't there at the end. An annullment basically says that a sacramental marriage did not take place because all of the elements for a sacramental marriage were not there at the beginning of the marriage. And yes, there are administrative costs to an annullment and yes I am quite sure that there have been unscrupulous priests in the history of the Catholic Church who have "sold" annullments. But if the OP's DH is a very staunch Catholic (and it sounds like he is) my guess is that he did not "purchase" an annullment...that he actually went through the process. If one is not a Catholic, then I can udnerstand how one wold think it is stupid, but for those of us who are Catholic, having a process whereby we can annull a non-sacramental marriage is important. I will say no more about it as this isn't a religious debate about annullments or the Catholic Church's doctrine except as it impacts the OP's main issue, which is childbearing.

OP, did you know when you married that he was such a staunch Catholic? I assume you did, since you had to wait for an annullment to marry and did not engage in premarital sex. Because unfortunately, IVF is against the doctrine of the Church as followed to the letter of the law. If there are priests that have counselled folks that it was "OK" to do an IVF...well, they were certainly stretching the doctrine quite a bit to come to that conclusion.

DH & I were unable to have children. We did try. We had some minor issues that were easily corrected by medication, but still were not able to have a child. We did some assisted reproductive stuff including IVF (I guess we'll be taking our chances on Judgement Day!) which did not work in several attempts. Our MD suggested egg donation and that's where we decided to stop. It felt too much like pushing the hand of God to us. I never considered leaving him because I love him & didn't want to not have him in my life. We went through it together & came to acceptance together. It didn't happen overnight, and we are fortunate that we have a lot of wonderful people in our life who VERY generously share their children with us. I have also come to appreciate not having children and the independence it gives us.

You are in a difficult position. I think counselling is the key here. Think long and hard before you dig your heels in and lose a good man though. If he would be open to adoption, I also think I'd do a bit more research into foreign adoptions...you may find differences in requirements in different countries. Best of luck to you.

 

[Chernabog#1fan]

Thank you for the information.

I just wanted to say that I am never offended by any of your opinions. I have lived this for so long that I honestly believe that I am no longer seeing things clearly.

I have never heard of embryo adoption. What is it?

Also, once my husband has made up his mind he sticks to it. The official church believes that IVF is wrong. The priest at our church could say whatever he wanted, but dh knows the official ruling.

Here is a site that has embryo adoption: http://www.bethany.org/A55798/bethanyWWW.nsf/0/D1FF3643671899988525727500728CF2.

Basically, if a person goes through IVF and they have extra frozen embryos, they can choose to adopt out the extra because they believe it to be almost like an abortion if it is destroyed.

You sound a lot like me going through an identity crisis right now. There is a song by David Cook that makes me cry almost everytime I hear it because it is how I feel regarding needing to get away and find out who I am. I honestly believed I would be a mother by now and nothing could have prepared me for the wait that we have had. We chose to adopt from China when I was 26. In order to adopt, I had to wait until I was 30. We started the process 6 months before I turned 30. At the time, the wait was only supposed to be abut 18-20 months. I am going to be 33 in a few weeks and the wait is expected to be another 24-36 months now. I do not know who I am without children as this was never my dream, in fact this is my worst nightmare. If I could do it all over again, I would never choose to adopt from China but would have gone the domestic adoption, which we may still do. My husband is going to be 40 in less than a year, and it has become too difficult for him as well.

I really think with your husband's religious beliefs, the embryo adoption would be a great option for you. It might make him feel as though he is providing life to an embryo that would otherwise be destroyed.

Feel free to PM me if you need any information. I have done a ton of research into other options, so I have a lot of information that might come in handy. Also, I live in Orlando so if you want to discuss moving to Florida, feel free to ask away.

 

[TAKitty]

OP, did you know when you married that he was such a staunch Catholic? I assume you did, since you had to wait for an annullment to marry and did not engage in premarital sex. Because unfortunately, IVF is against the doctrine of the Church as followed to the letter of the law. If there are priests that have counselled folks that it was "OK" to do an IVF...well, they were certainly stretching the doctrine quite a bit to come to that conclusion.

I knew he was very Catholic when we married but he had two kids and I was young and healthy, I certainly didn't think I would ever have to consider IVF. In fact, I always said that I would never play god and have IVF, but that was before the doctors said it was our only hope.

This thread has helped me see that I have looked at my husband as a means to an end and that isn't fair to him.

 

[minkydog]

You really hit the nail on the head. I have been asking myself "who am I without children?" Part of all of this is that I have to redefine my future--my dreams. I now want an adventure. I would like to move to Florida. I would like to maybe start a new career. He can't leave. He has two children that he needs to take care of. I am at a crossroads.

Hmmm, sounds like you love each other but your goals at odds. He's trying to make a nest for his babies and you're wanting to find yourself, maybe make a new nest altogether. I'd definitely have a few sessions with a counselor, with and without your husband, before you make any life-altering decisions. There's something else going on underneath

 

[AllyandJack]

First, I'll give the speech and tell my story....

My 1st DD is an IVF baby. It took 3yrs and 4 cycles to have her. My H's counts were so far from normal, we were told the same thing - that it's not going to happen. So, I had Kate and declined birth control because we didn't need it.

I got pregnant again 12wks later. I got all the usual speeches about how "that's how it always happens" and "now your body knows what to do". Blah, blah. Apparently, MY being pregnant created sperm in H and taught them how to swim.

I had my 2nd and mulled over my options. I didn't want more and pregnancy doesn't agree with me (this one nearly killed me). I went on the pill while I thought about different options. I knew it wasn't working right and I saw my OB, made the appt for the IUD and left with a different birth control pill to take in the meantime. A week later, I got another positive test and was pregnant (needless to say, my IUD appt turned into a pre-natal appt). I had no idea and I was pretty far along since the "period" I had on the pill wasn't a "period", so my Natural Family Planning method was pointless.

So, there's the "don't give up, it can always happen" blah, blah speech. I always hated when people gave me that speech and hated it even more when people thought it would give me hope, but there it is anyway.

Did he have any testing to find out what might have happened in between him fathering kids and then not being able to? It could be something treatable - low hormones that can be dealt with (just never, ever let them give him anything like Androgel for low testosterone - synthetic testosterone is male birth control....there are other treatments for low testosterone), maybe an infection or a blockage that can be fixed surgically. You didn't say how he found out about his condition, but a good urologist that deals with reproductive issues could shed some light on things.

There is the IUI option...I'm not entirely sure what the church's stance on that is, but, if you're all clear and have no issues with blocked tubes, IUI could be an option.

I have several friends who have children through donated embryos. You go through an agency, pick an embryo, go through the IVF transfer and hope for the best. Again, not sure what the church's stance on that is - generally, they thaw more than would transfer because not all embryos survive the thaw, so that could be an issue if they thaw 4, all 4 live, but you shouldn't have all 4 transferred (my doctor's limit was 2 embryos). There would likely be an issue with discarding the 2 living thawed embryos. You could go with 2 and risk that none would survive and spend the time and money on medication for you just to not have anything to transfer.

You can do the same with IVF....just fertilize 2 of your eggs and hope for the best, but risk wasting the time and money. There's also the issue of, um, sample collection.... But, if the biggest issue is the embryo/life issue, you CAN get around that by only fertilizing 2 eggs and hoping at least 1 embyro develops to be transferred.

Good luck with whatever you guys decide.

I'm also sorry about your mom.

 

[Disney Doll]

I feel badly that perhaps you guys didn't think through all the ramifications of marriage...the possibility of not having children, the reality of him having to stay "here" for his other children's sakes while you may feel the desire to be elsewhere.

But, I think it's good that you are thinking of who you are...with or without children. It's never good to base one's self-esteem, self-image, self-worth on someone else...ie-John's wife, Susie's mom. I never went through that because I always saw myself as "me" first, then a wife, daughter, sister, friend, aunt and all the other important roles I play.

I think you have a lot of emotional work ahead of you between this issue and your mother illness.

 

[TAKitty]

You sound a lot like me going through an identity crisis right now. There is a song by David Cook that makes me cry almost everytime I hear it because it is how I feel regarding needing to get away and find out who I am. I honestly believed I would be a mother by now and nothing could have prepared me for the wait that we have had. We chose to adopt from China when I was 26. In order to adopt, I had to wait until I was 30. We started the process 6 months before I turned 30. At the time, the wait was only supposed to be abut 18-20 months. I am going to be 33 in a few weeks and the wait is expected to be another 24-36 months now. I do not know who I am without children as this was never my dream, in fact this is my worst nightmare. If I could do it all over again, I would never choose to adopt from China but would have gone the domestic adoption, which we may still do. My husband is going to be 40 in less than a year, and it has become too difficult for him as well.

I need to multi-quote. Sorry for all the posts.

I feel your pain with the wait of adoption. I have a friend who is using Bethany for domestic adoption and is willing to take a bi-racial child and it has been a year and a half with no luck. I'm sorry that you have had to wait so long. This poem makes me cry every time I read it, but it is somehow a comfort too.

KISSES IN THE WIND (The Waiting Child’s Lullaby)
I hold you in my heart and touch you in my dreams.
You are here each day with me, at least that’s how it seems.
I know you wonder where we are… what’s taking us so long.
But remember child, I love you so and God will keep you strong.
Now go outside and feel the breeze and let it touch your skin…
Because tonight, just as always, I blow you kisses in the wind.
May God hold you in His hand until I can be with you.
I promise you, my darling, I’m doing all that I can do.
Very soon, you’ll have a family for real, not just pretend.
But for tonight, just as always, I blow you kisses in the wind.
May God wrap you in His arms and hold you very tight.
And let the angels bring the kisses that I send to you each night.
— © Pamela Durkota

 

[Stacerita]

It sounds like you and your DH aren't in the same book, let alone same page about this. And from some of the posts seems like there is a lot of other things going on. You really need to think about your marriage and what you really want. Does your desire to have children out weigh your wanting to stay married to him? And just because he already has children, are you always going to hold that against him?

Im glad you are going to talk to someone. You need to figure out what you need in your life and go from there. Having children may or may not be the answer for you. I hope you do find the answer that is right.

I know you didn't ask for an opinion on this, but I really have issue with someone who gets an annullment like this. I get the ones where someone impulsivly gets married like in Vegas or on a whim. Mistakes like that happen. Should they happen, no, but they do. But for someone who went through the sarcament of marriage in a Catholic Church and then gets an annullment years later bothers me. You practically have to jump through hoops to get married in the church, its not a quick decision. And no matter what you call it in the end, its still a divorce. Just another word for it. It in effect treats it as if it didn't happen. So where does that put his kids? Are they now considered born out of wedlock since his marriage "never happened"?

 

[ms.yt]

So where does that put his kids? Are they now considered born out of wedlock since his marriage "never happened"?

That's what I was wondering. I always had heard that was the case if children were involved in a marriage that's annulled.

Back to the OP's original issue. I have seen people mention foreign adoption and domestic adoption through a private agency. I haven't seen the OP or anyone discuss the possibility of adopting through the state. I don't know what Michigan's policies are, but in Arkansas your husband would still be eligible to adopt for many years, just not an infant. Are you set on a newborn or would you be willing to parent an older child? In our adoption classes, there were many, many people over 40 there to adopt. Some were like you and your husband, he was older and had kids, but she was younger and didn't have any. There were also a lot of over 40 couples there who had raised their children together and now that they were grown, they wanted to be parents again. I would encourage you to look into the option of adopting through the state before you make any final decisions.

 

[TAKitty]

So where does that put his kids? Are they now considered born out of wedlock since his marriage "never happened"?

I don't want to get into a whole religious debate...but no, the kids are not considered to be born out of wedlock. The church just says that the basis of a marriage was not there from a start, but one doesn't know that until after the fact. There is more to it, but this isn't the place.

 

[Took]

You really hit the nail on the head. I have been asking myself "who am I without children?" Part of all of this is that I have to redefine my future--my dreams. I now want an adventure. I would like to move to Florida. I would like to maybe start a new career. He can't leave. He has two children that he needs to take care of. I am at a crossroads.

OP, I'm so sorry you're facing these dual problems at once. How awful!

In the hope of helping you, I will share my "who am I now?" story, which is the flip-side of yours: I NEVER wanted to have children. I wasn't a "child person" and never really did babysitting or dolls when I was young. I was strictly career-oriented and didn't even want to get married particularly. Met DH when I was nearly 30, and he didn't really want kids either. So everything was okay. When, after a year of marriage in my 30's, I found myself pregnant, my entire self-image was affected. I know that may sound absurd to some, but I was devastated for a long while. I only knew I loved DH, and he assured me that if I continued the pregnancy, we were in this together. (He would have allowed me to terminate the pregnancy if I had wanted, but I didn't.)

Fast-forward 13 years. I am a pretty happy mom who is very proud of her daughter (I didn't deserve a kid this good, lol), and I have adjusted my self-image to accomodate my new circumstances. It was NOT easy or painless, and I only share my story because I want you to know that you shouldn't be afraid of finding a "different you." "You" may be someone different than you imagine, if that makes any sense.

Now, if you have doubts about the division you're experiencing with your DH over the IVF issue, I understand, and that could be a reason, IMHO, to leave the marriage if the division, perhaps, symbolizes other "divisions" in the marriage. Perhaps, you think DH (deep down) cares more about his own "feelings" (his commitment to his religious beliefs) than he does about you. But that's a whole different issue.

In any case, good luck. This sounds like a tough one.

 

[Dancemom03]

I know you didn't ask for an opinion on this, but I really have issue with someone who gets an annullment like this. I get the ones where someone impulsivly gets married like in Vegas or on a whim. Mistakes like that happen. Should they happen, no, but they do. But for someone who went through the sarcament of marriage in a Catholic Church and then gets an annullment years later bothers me. You practically have to jump through hoops to get married in the church, its not a quick decision. And no matter what you call it in the end, its still a divorce. Just another word for it. It in effect treats it as if it didn't happen. So where does that put his kids? Are they now considered born out of wedlock since his marriage "never happened"?

Kind of OT but maybe I can help with this question... I'm one of those kids from an annulled marriage. It's not always about being able to be remarried in the church - usually there are much deeper reasons for requesting an annullment.

In my case, our parents were married for eleven very traumatic years and divorced in the early sixties when I was seven. Both eventually remarried but not until my brother & I were grown. Because my mother was divorced, she never took communion, not once in over thirty years even though she attended mass every Sunday and every Holy day.

I remember going with DS31 to mass once on Sunday when he was a child and a friend asked him why his grandmother never got up for communion. We didn't always go to the same mass but did that day and my mom overheard. She'd been thinking about an annulment and re-marrying DSD in the church but had been afraid to approach my brother and I about it for just the reason you mention. Don't get me wrong, the woman is not perfect - in fact many days I want to pull all my hair out after her calls, but she was brought up by a strict catholic family and made sure we were too. She'd taken vows - plus she didn't want to hurt our feelings - so she was willing to forego sacraments if neccessary until the end of time and hold her head up high.

It was the early eighties and annullment was a LONG process - over a year and a half. I'd met with the priest when my mom brought up the idea and explained that the children in an annulment are still recognized, it's just that the participants in the marriage should never have been married.

It seems like a little thing - walking to the altar... I can't tell you though what a wonderful feeling it was for us to see her able to finally take communion after the annullment was granted.

 

[disneymarie]

He is against it for religious reasons. He is very Catholic and I am not going to change his mind. He says a big NO to donor sperm. I don't have any real options.

Did he by chance have a vasectomy before he met you and avoided disclosing it to marry you?

I would be real upset to know if this was concealed at a period in your life when you were young and he knowingly kept it from you.

I am not sure you could even tell. If an older man with kids is hooking up with a woman 28 with no children, he very well could have been motivated after his divorce to have had one done.
Now all these years later you find out he is sterile, that seems quizical to me.

Find out before you make a decision. If you were single you could adopt a child that needs a home, or have your own sperm donor.
That is what I would do...if he led me on. I would not give up a dream under that circumstance.

Children are rewarding but lots of work, anxiety and $$$$. Even if you decide against a child, I would question a motivation, or all of a sudden declaration.
even if he was tested, it would come up sterile, but he would already known that and went along.
Just thinking out loud, life is strange.


Edited to add: This delimia is bothering me, but i am a ret law enforcement and now a private investigator, also extremly intuative.
Last time a gal posted a charge on her credit card for expensive cosmetics when she does not wear them; dh went along with her thought she found her early Valentines present. However, it was the dh fooling around and eventually admitted it. I was on the target.

BUT, I know that unless he discloses to talk to his doctor, you can not get his information,
I do feel you should talk to your doctor about why dh fathered 2 children easily and now can not.
There are generally only a few things that affect that.
1. The children were not really his
2. That he had an injury or mumps...
3. That he is concealing a vasectomy
4? what ever doc can share

I would play a bit of detective if I were you. IF he is honest, ask if you can get the medical records back to way back.....See his reaction.
Also, could confront him that you would like to know if he had one done before you met.
Maybe go as far as to request any medical records and see what they show,

My husband had a dd 23 and he was 48 when our dd was born, we were not trying, I was on BC.
So he was still real fertile. as was I at 40.
I get an awful feeling about this one too. Sorry,
But really you must too if you are even considering ending the marriage. You must not have the marriage that is forever and ever.
Get him to fess up, I think he will.