What should be cut first?

If it's in our best interests as a society to help ALL children reach their best potential how exactly is it ok to treat one group as less relevant than another.

Being trapped in a mind that is unable to reach it's potential without assistance beyond the average is bad on both sides of the spectrum. If no-one around you can reach you what difference does it make if your IQ is 50 or 180? Isolated and alone is isolated and alone, there is no difference.

For those of you who think gifted kids aren't special needs too did you stop to consider that locked in one of those young minds might be the cure to Autism, Alzheimer, Cancer, or some other major advancement for human kind?

Do you really think it is less painful for a parent to watch their child act out out & turn to bad behaviors because school is too easy than it is when it's too hard.

Personally, I think both sides of the spectrum deserve our attention and it's a very bad idea when parents are forced to choose sides because then all reason disappears from the conversation.

The hypothetical was presented and has been answered accordingly. The question wasn't how to make both work--it was "IF you had to choose".

My thoughts posted were to that question.

Not all gifted children "act out and turn to bad behaviors" and it is silly--yes, very silly--to use that as an excuse that if so and so doesn't get their "extra" classes--they'll be naughty.

I figured that argument would come up at some point.

(I'm also speaking of ANY child with special needs, in particular to those wo have no trouble with their IQ's, but still require assistive devices or curriculum to do the basics. And we are forgetting, that sometimes the gifted and genius kids need that kind of help as well. Gifted/genius does not equate to a perfect child with no difficulties.)
 
The hypothetical was presented and has been answered accordingly. The question wasn't how to make both work--it was "IF you had to choose".

My thoughts posted were to that question.

Not all gifted children "act out and turn to bad behaviors" and it is silly--yes, very silly--to use that as an excuse that if so and so doesn't get their "extra" classes--they'll be naughty.

I figured that argument would come up at some point.

(I'm also speaking of ANY child with special needs, in particular to those wo have no trouble with their IQ's, but still require assistive devices or curriculum to do the basics. And we are forgetting, that sometimes the gifted and genius kids need that kind of help as well. Gifted/genius does not equate to a perfect child with no difficulties.)

Really, so how many gifted kids who went ignored do you personally know? Also, do not marginalize this issue with a ridiculous word like 'naughty'. You think smart kids don't drop out? You think smart kids don't turn to substance abuse to cope with loneliness and isolation? You think smart kids branded as nerds don't have social problems? I see what you are up to and it's just not cool. You and anyone else supporting this line of discourse aren't interested in an open dialogue from parents of both sets of kids so we can band together to save programs on both sides of the spectrum. You want everyone to split based upon where their kid(s) sit on the spectrum. The only thing I don't get is why.

I think asking a divisive question like this is unconscionable... Why ask such a thing? What good will come of it?
 
I can see her point though....

But if you were a Math teacher--you'd say "Math Teacher".

You wouldn't say "Teacher of Arithmetic"

My gifted teacher would just list her area: G.A.T.E.

Here it is called the "Academicaly Gifted Program", so I would put AG Teacher.
 
I get it - but we are doing a disservice to our truly gifted student - these kids could change the world for the better.

I think severely mentally challenged children (in my opinion )- do not belong in school. If they are unable to read, do math, spell, learn etc - WHY exactly are they in school?

Because it is their legal right to be in school. A severely disabled child has just as much right as a gifted child.

This is why I wanted to stay out of this thread. No further comments from me. I'll will end up banned from here.
 

Special education, whether for the mentally/physically disabled or the gifted should not be an area that receives cuts; and honestly, with such deep federal and state regulations, it probably won't be. In Alabama, we need to get the education budget away from being tied to sales tax. We are deeply in proration right now. My system hasn't cut teachers yet, but I'm imagining they will this year. Here's what they've already done:

1. Heating and cooling cuts off at 2:00 everyday, (We're in class until 3:20.)

2. Went from four to one custodian.

3. Bathrooms (except for one near the main office) are locked during class. Supposedly, this saves toilet paper and hand towels.

4. We cut classroom, library, and technology funds to zero.

5. They did away with the PR position at the CO.

6. Basically, if anything breaks (technology related, furniture, etc.), there are no funds to fix it or replace it.

7. Each school used to have a nurse. Now, we share a nurse with the middle school across the street.

8. Non-essential personnel was cut. (receptionists, some reading coaches, some secretaries, and "extra" units)
 
You want everyone to split based upon where their kid(s) sit on the spectrum. The only thing I don't get is why.

I think asking a divisive question like this is unconscionable... Why ask such a thing? What good will come of it?

First off--no I don't.

Second--your question should be directed to Lfontaine who posted the crazy scenario.

I am a gifted kid that was ignored for several years...I didn't get "services" until 6th grade.

Funny how I survived. I still received an education. Was it ideal? No--but I did get at least a minimal education.

But I'd trade all my honors courses (no giftedness required), AP courses and field trips--if the "unconscionable" scenario came to fruition--so that a child who has as much right to learn something as I do--can be taught what they need to be the best person they can be.

If it means, they have wheelchair access, they have a para, they get special therapies to help with speech or OT or whatever--so be it.

This whole "neglect" thing is a new concept of the gifted and while I do feel they certainly should be assisted b/c schools are doing a disservice when they...for example, don't let a 2nd grader read a 5th grade level chapter book just b/c 2nd graders aren't allowed to...that's wrong.

But that is a system problem and not a budget problem.

I know people that has happened to. They do opt to homeschool--but adding budget to the problem wont' fix it as long as schools have silly rules.

As far as the disabled--well again...I cannot be any more clearer than to cite the American's with Disabilities Act. Accomodations MUST be must that are reasonable.

It is unreasonable to say "screw it" to a disabled person in lieu of a smarter child on that premise alone. The disabled student has every right to be in the school system. Some can be mainstreamed and some cannot.

But we are long past the days when we "commit" people to an instituation and write them off as worthless so that we spend money on the more fit of society. Statistics wise--it occurrs much more often to those who need help versus those who need to school system to keep up with them academically. No I don't have a citation--but I do know that I'm referring to much more than the far ends of the spectrum to include all children including my son who will receive speech services from the district beginning next week. There is nothing wrong with his mind--he's a very smart boy. He just has difficulty speaking. Decades ago, he probably would have been thought of as an idiot b/c he grunted for the longest time. He would have been cast off until he figured out how to talk on his own--never mind the reading delays that could cause. However, he has been repeatedly tested and again--nothing wrong with his brain and every indication that he may be above average. But he still qualifies for services because he is severely deficient in speech. (he'll only get speech btw)

Again--I did not pose the question--LFONTAINE DID...and if you have an issue with the scenario, take it up with her.

It provides interesting food for thought none the less and I hope that the schools in this country are never forced into such a decision. I've got kids in on both sides (gifted/special needs-speech) that would be affected by such a scenario if one was cut in lieu of another. I will always support those who are deficient due to the ADA. They have rights to access--and if they don't get help...they have no access.
 
The brutal truth is that it's not the mentally disabled children that will grow up to run this country and its corporations. By neglecting the brightest, you condemn our country to be run by "average" people.

The brutal truth is that all gifted students will not grow up to be great leaders and run this country. And not all children with learning disabilities grow up to be "average" people, but do grow up to be great leaders.

One of the best leaders in our community was a young man that could not read. He received services from special ed all through school and his disability has only allowed him to get to a certain grade level. But he learned a career that did not require things he could not do and now he is one of the most successful men in this area, owning his own business and employing many others. He is, also, a wonderful member of our church who is a great influence on the teen boys that he takes up a lot of time with.

Another young man graduated the same year as that one. He was considered gifted and was in the program all through 2-8th grades and then in AP classes in high school. Went to college, dropped out due to drug use. Last I knew he was working in retail, but still had a drug problem.



Everyone is debating as though it is some kind of contest to see who's more important. No child is more important than another, but you are talking about taking away a service for a child who needs to learn to feed him/herself, or learn to be self sufficient and live with little help, or to learn to read with disabilities or to learn to do simple math so that a child that can read several years above his/her grade level or do advanced math can have services. I don't see how anyone can debate which need is more immediate.
 
Many of you don't have a realistic picture of gifted and special needs students:

Gifted kids don't tend to drop out -- not unless there are other issues involved too. What happens if they don't have appropriate challenges and appropriate instruction is that they just don't rise to the level of their ability. High ability and high motivation are two separate measures; some students have both, but others have the ability but no real desire to work hard. Some of them act out badly and become disruptions in the classroom, but most just sit quietly doing their own thing; that's more a matter of personality than of ability. Some of their families provide wonderful extra enrichment, but most don't -- they see it as the school's responsibility. So a gifted child who doesn't get gifted instruction really just languishes in the average classroom. In some classes they can make As easily and without any real effort, and this means that they don't build up study skills; so when they hit something that doesn't come easily for them (for me it was Chemistry and French), they don't have those good habits and they are unprepared.

This hurts us as a society because we NEED our best and brightest to be challenged. We need them to push themselves academically, then enter competative fields that'll allow them to do good for society. Note that many of our engineers and doctors are now coming from other countries. We're not pushing our own kids towards these high-tech, high-ability jobs.

Gifted education doesn't have to be expensive; a pull-out class for small groups is very affordable, a great value for the expenditure. And more is better. We need to spend MORE on these kids. These are the kids who will lead our society in the future. Without leadership, where will we be in 10, 20, 30 years? You cannot assume that they'll rise to the occasion without some push from somewhere.

At the same time, we cannot ignore our weakest students. The kids whom some posters have referred to as "slow learners" or kids with learning disabilities make massive gains when they're able to take part in small group instruction -- but small group instruction means another teacher. Though it's considered "bad" to admit it, most of these kids aren't getting any help at home. In many cases, simply having a scheduled time to sit down and do their reading /homework is enough to bring these kids' grades up. In many cases, the kids are labeled "learning disabled", but the truth is that they're just behind grade level because they haven't been doing their work. In a small group setting, they can't hide behind other students, and when they actually do what's expected, their grades flourish. The person who runs this small group class could even be a para-professional; after all, the idea is just to support the classroom assignments, not to design new ones. I'm really talking about a study hall.

Most kids in this category can "make it" in a regular classroom if they ALSO have a small group study-hall type class at some point during the day (I'm thinking high school here). These are the kids who, if ignored, will become a drag on our society; they'll need our tax dollars because they'll not be able to support themselves sufficiently. We cannot afford NOT to do all we can to bring them up to par so that they can do well for themselves in the future. If you don't have compassion for them on a personal level, remember that this group will either eat up our tax dollars in the form of welfare and food stamps . . . or they will work and pay our social security benefits. And the direction they go is largely based upon what the schools do for them now.


Now . . . the real special needs kids, who are small in number but significant in dollars . . .

Next there are the kids whose disabilities are more severe. These kids will never hold a "good job"; their opportunities are limited. Their educations are much more expensive than the average student's, but they get a world of good out of it. These are the kids who are capable of someday living in a group home and working in a cafeteria or at McDonalds. Most families cannot afford the therapies that these kids get for free through schools (they're regularly visited by vocational therapists, speech therapists, and more); many of these families are already in financial crisis because these kids are incredibly expensive to raise. These kids may never learn to read and write, but they graduate with an occupational diploma, and by the time they've finished school they have work habits, personal grooming habits, and life skill habits. If you were to compound a dollars-and-cents spreadsheet, you might say that society won't "get as much out of these kids" as it puts in; but it doesn't matter. It's a quality of life issue. It's better for these kids to be able to grow up having some independence and some work skills rather than to be dependant upon the government and their parents for the rest of their lives.

Then there are the severely and profoundly disabled kids. These are the kids who may not speak, may not walk, will always need constant supervision, and will never even be able to do the halfway-house-and-simple-job route. The school may be working with them on things as simple as toilet training. School for them is really the mechanism through which they receive a number of therapies, therapies which most families cannot afford. These therapists aren't school employees; they're the same people who the kids'd be seeing if they were staying home, and they're largely funded through tax dollars; it's efficient for the therapist to see the kids all at school rather than going to multiple private homes. These kids do cost the school system a fortune, but -- even putting the federal law aside -- we're talking about human beings here. Some of these kids have even been put into foster care because their families cannot afford to care for them.

What should be cut? Not education. Could you really come in and tell a family, "Your child deserves less than other children?" I understand perfectly that there isn't enough money to go around, but education isn't the thing to cut.
 
Right now public school is very much a "one size fits all". The kid with the 70 iq is expected to do the same math that the 100 iq kid and the 140 iq kid simply because they're all 9. It's just really, really wrong.

I think the entire school system needs to go back to square one. What do severely mentally challenged kids need? They don't need to be sitting in a class with four para-pros drilling CRCT answers into their heads so they won't pull down the rest of the school when they test. That's simply insane.
No, not really. We have separate classrooms for the kids with 70 IQs. They're earning occupational diplomas, and they're not doing the same math as the kid with the 140 IQ.

It is true that the kid with a 90 IQ is sitting in class with the 140 IQ kid, although their abilities are vastly different. The 140 IQ kid probably has a twice-a-week pull-out session, and the 90 IQ kid probably stays inside from recess twice a week for remedial math. Do we need more differentiation? Absolutely! It's the 140 IQ kid who's getting the shaft.

In high school the 90 IQ kid will choose to take Foundations of Math and then Tech Math, both of which are really arithmetic, while the 140 kid (if he's chosen to apply himself) will zoom right through Algebra 1 and 2, Geometry and move on to Calculus or Statistics.

It's not as one-size-fits-all as you imply.
 
Many of you don't have a realistic picture of gifted and special needs students:

Gifted kids don't tend to drop out -- not unless there are other issues involved too. What happens if they don't have appropriate challenges and appropriate instruction is that they just don't rise to the level of their ability. High ability and high motivation are two separate measures; some students have both, but others have the ability but no real desire to work hard. Some of them act out badly and become disruptions in the classroom, but most just sit quietly doing their own thing; that's more a matter of personality than of ability. Some of their families provide wonderful extra enrichment, but most don't -- they see it as the school's responsibility. So a gifted child who doesn't get gifted instruction really just languishes in the average classroom. In some classes they can make As easily and without any real effort, and this means that they don't build up study skills; so when they hit something that doesn't come easily for them (for me it was Chemistry and French), they don't have those good habits and they are unprepared.

This hurts us as a society because we NEED our best and brightest to be challenged. We need them to push themselves academically, then enter competative fields that'll allow them to do good for society. Note that many of our engineers and doctors are now coming from other countries. We're not pushing our own kids towards these high-tech, high-ability jobs.

Gifted education doesn't have to be expensive; a pull-out class for small groups is very affordable, a great value for the expenditure. And more is better. We need to spend MORE on these kids. These are the kids who will lead our society in the future. Without leadership, where will we be in 10, 20, 30 years? You cannot assume that they'll rise to the occasion without some push from somewhere.

At the same time, we cannot ignore our weakest students. The kids whom some posters have referred to as "slow learners" or kids with learning disabilities make massive gains when they're able to take part in small group instruction -- but small group instruction means another teacher. Though it's considered "bad" to admit it, most of these kids aren't getting any help at home. In many cases, simply having a scheduled time to sit down and do their reading /homework is enough to bring these kids' grades up. In many cases, the kids are labeled "learning disabled", but the truth is that they're just behind grade level because they haven't been doing their work. In a small group setting, they can't hide behind other students, and when they actually do what's expected, their grades flourish. The person who runs this small group class could even be a para-professional; after all, the idea is just to support the classroom assignments, not to design new ones. I'm really talking about a study hall.

Most kids in this category can "make it" in a regular classroom if they ALSO have a small group study-hall type class at some point during the day (I'm thinking high school here). These are the kids who, if ignored, will become a drag on our society; they'll need our tax dollars because they'll not be able to support themselves sufficiently. We cannot afford NOT to do all we can to bring them up to par so that they can do well for themselves in the future. If you don't have compassion for them on a personal level, remember that this group will either eat up our tax dollars in the form of welfare and food stamps . . . or they will work and pay our social security benefits. And the direction they go is largely based upon what the schools do for them now.


Now . . . the real special needs kids, who are small in number but significant in dollars . . .

Next there are the kids whose disabilities are more severe. These kids will never hold a "good job"; their opportunities are limited. Their educations are much more expensive than the average student's, but they get a world of good out of it. These are the kids who are capable of someday living in a group home and working in a cafeteria or at McDonalds. Most families cannot afford the therapies that these kids get for free through schools (they're regularly visited by vocational therapists, speech therapists, and more); many of these families are already in financial crisis because these kids are incredibly expensive to raise. These kids may never learn to read and write, but they graduate with an occupational diploma, and by the time they've finished school they have work habits, personal grooming habits, and life skill habits. If you were to compound a dollars-and-cents spreadsheet, you might say that society won't "get as much out of these kids" as it puts in; but it doesn't matter. It's a quality of life issue. It's better for these kids to be able to grow up having some independence and some work skills rather than to be dependant upon the government and their parents for the rest of their lives.

Then there are the severely and profoundly disabled kids. These are the kids who may not speak, may not walk, will always need constant supervision, and will never even be able to do the halfway-house-and-simple-job route. The school may be working with them on things as simple as toilet training. School for them is really the mechanism through which they receive a number of therapies, therapies which most families cannot afford. These therapists aren't school employees; they're the same people who the kids'd be seeing if they were staying home, and they're largely funded through tax dollars; it's efficient for the therapist to see the kids all at school rather than going to multiple private homes. These kids do cost the school system a fortune, but -- even putting the federal law aside -- we're talking about human beings here. Some of these kids have even been put into foster care because their families cannot afford to care for them.

What should be cut? Not education. Could you really come in and tell a family, "Your child deserves less than other children?" I understand perfectly that there isn't enough money to go around, but education isn't the thing to cut.

Thanks for this. Your post sums it up nicely and makes a lot of great points.
 
Let's see... Albert Einstein didn't talk until he was 4. The headmaster at the school told his dad that he would never amount to anything. Yes, he was gifted. He was ALSO Autistic. Mozart was most likely Autistic as well. I could make a longer list, but I'd rather make my point: just because a child has a disability and YOU don't think they have a chance of contributing anything worthwhile to society does not make it so. How many Eisteins and Mozart will we miss because we think we know who we can throw away? The notion that one life is more valuable than another is absurd. Say what you want. I will not argue, because I have already said what I believe.
 
You proposed the scenario where Janie is a brain surgeon, and now you contradict yourself.

Also, by using the word "worthless" is not germane to the argument-I don't even know who you are arguing with there, because nobody has suggested that mentally challenged children are worthless. They just don't need to be sitting in a class trying to learn geometry.



Right now public school is very much a "one size fits all". The kid with the 70 iq is expected to do the same math that the 100 iq kid and the 140 iq kid simply because they're all 9. It's just really, really wrong.

I think the entire school system needs to go back to square one. What do severely mentally challenged kids need? They don't need to be sitting in a class with four para-pros drilling CRCT answers into their heads so they won't pull down the rest of the school when they test. That's simply insane.

Again, and I think I stressed this on, like, page TWO, the answer is, don't cut money to the schools. But beyond that simple answer, the next question we should be asking is, how do we make our schools COMPETITIVE in the next century? Because other countries aren't hamstrung with crybabyitis and political correctness like we are, and pretty soon we'll all be reading Hop on Pop in our free college and wondering what happened to us...



Ok you were a gifted kid who got the fuzzy end of the lollypop, and yet you support NOT advocating for the gifted. Yeah, um, right. The possibility exists that you may not be quite as bright as you think you are.



You can't prove the argument by positing the opposite. No great leaders will come from the mentally challenged population, that's a fact. Of course, not all gifted children will go on to make positive changes in society.

But I'm telling you right now, Johnny Average is not going to be the one curing cancer. There's a child in our neighborhood right now with Stage Four neuroblastoma, and we've met one of her pediatric oncologists, and that woman is so, so bright, so smart, that we are like, wow, how are we even the same species?

Hang out around some truly smart people sometime, and they will freakin' blow your mind.

We just need to make sure those people have the opportunity to become doctors and scientists and other areas where humankind is so fundamentally lacking, for the most part.

I like that so many people are concerned about education in our country, but really depressed about what they think should happen...

How in the heck does not having a special classroom to go to a for an hour or so a day and do extra work from the regular classroom equal not becoming a doctor? Doctors usually become doctors because it is something they have wanted to do all of their lives, not because they were able to be in the gifted program at school. Some schools don't even have a gifted program and still have former students that become doctors and scientists, etc. We have had several students that left our Medical Lab program at a community college and have gone on to become successful doctors--none of which were considered "gifted". They were all hard working students with great dreams that they saw through. Their gift was in their ability to strive to be the best at what they did and to be able to work toward their dream.

If we stop trying to give any education or training to the mentally challenged, what exactly do you suggest be done? You cannot really thing that all of the parents can afford the services their child needs. So what is your solution?



I started all of this about disabled vs. gifted by saying IF cuts were made to special ed. that it should come from the gifted programs. As Ms. Pete said, it doesn't have to be expensive to have a gifted program. But when I worked for the school system, I know that the gifted classroom received quite a few extra dollars from the state and had some very expensive materials in the classroom So, then maybe the answer would be in not cutting out the program but cutting out a lot of the extra funding. Those cuts could be made for that classroom without completely disabling the program. The same could not be said for programs for the severely disabled and mentally challenged students.
 
Today, under P.L.102-119, all schools must offer special educational services to eligible 3-21 year old individuals with disabilities.

If the school system doesn't offer a quality education, not only do they have to send the child to a qualified school, they have to foot the bill.

I honestly cannot fathom that anyone believes that cutting special ed is the way to trim fat out of a budget. That is the most disgusting thing I've ever heard on this forum.

I agree somewhat - but should there be a level of severity for disabled child that can go to school? Is every child teachable? What about the ones who can't feed themselves (have a button -whatever its called) or do anything else for themselves (no talking - not potty trained) They are essentially just being babysat & we pay for bussing & teaching that child & for a nurse along with the teacher plus 2 busdrivers.

Its just a question - 'cause I don't know exactly how I feel about it -
 
I've always resented the gifted program. My bro was in it as a kid - but his kids weren't 'cause it was all a social thing - his kids just did regular honors/AP classes or dual enrolled @ the junior college.

BUT the main reason I resent the gifted program is because the learn the FUN way...hands on learning - they aren't stuck in a desk doing worksheets or reading about adobe huts - they are BUILDING them!

We have a couple brag magazines put out here ya know the ones that tell you whats coming up in the town & then all the ads for the drs & such & then has all kids of pics from the local schools. Mnay of them are awards pics - but there will always be a few from the gifted classes with those kids doing the same lesson my dd did but they got to build it, weigh it, measure it -SOMETHING creative other than sitting in the desk.

My child is a different learner (as I am). My 2nd child would almost prefer wksheets (though she's only 7) cause they are fun for her - her sister always thought they were punishment....
 
I'm new to this thread and haven't read it all so forgive me if this is way out of line. I'm an educator and have a child who gets both special services AND accelerated classes so I see it from all angles. (My position in the schools also just got cut so I see it from that, too!)

Anyway, I just read an interesting book that showed the latest studies on gifted children. It basically said children development in spurts and not on a consistant curve so depending on when you test a child they may look gifted when they're having a spurt or look average right before a spurt. It said this doesn't actually even out until middle school. You may not even know a child is gifted or not until the later years. I thought that was interesting. Our school just dropped gifted program from the middle and high schools for next year but kept it for elementary. That seems to go against research but then nobody asked me!
 
Many of you don't have a realistic picture of gifted and special needs students:

Gifted kids don't tend to drop out -- not unless there are other issues involved too. What happens if they don't have appropriate challenges and appropriate instruction is that they just don't rise to the level of their ability. High ability and high motivation are two separate measures; some students have both, but others have the ability but no real desire to work hard. Some of them act out badly and become disruptions in the classroom, but most just sit quietly doing their own thing; that's more a matter of personality than of ability. Some of their families provide wonderful extra enrichment, but most don't -- they see it as the school's responsibility. So a gifted child who doesn't get gifted instruction really just languishes in the average classroom. In some classes they can make As easily and without any real effort, and this means that they don't build up study skills; so when they hit something that doesn't come easily for them (for me it was Chemistry and French), they don't have those good habits and they are unprepared.

This hurts us as a society because we NEED our best and brightest to be challenged. We need them to push themselves academically, then enter competative fields that'll allow them to do good for society. Note that many of our engineers and doctors are now coming from other countries. We're not pushing our own kids towards these high-tech, high-ability jobs.

Gifted education doesn't have to be expensive; a pull-out class for small groups is very affordable, a great value for the expenditure. And more is better. We need to spend MORE on these kids. These are the kids who will lead our society in the future. Without leadership, where will we be in 10, 20, 30 years? You cannot assume that they'll rise to the occasion without some push from somewhere.

At the same time, we cannot ignore our weakest students. The kids whom some posters have referred to as "slow learners" or kids with learning disabilities make massive gains when they're able to take part in small group instruction -- but small group instruction means another teacher. Though it's considered "bad" to admit it, most of these kids aren't getting any help at home. In many cases, simply having a scheduled time to sit down and do their reading /homework is enough to bring these kids' grades up. In many cases, the kids are labeled "learning disabled", but the truth is that they're just behind grade level because they haven't been doing their work. In a small group setting, they can't hide behind other students, and when they actually do what's expected, their grades flourish. The person who runs this small group class could even be a para-professional; after all, the idea is just to support the classroom assignments, not to design new ones. I'm really talking about a study hall.

Most kids in this category can "make it" in a regular classroom if they ALSO have a small group study-hall type class at some point during the day (I'm thinking high school here). These are the kids who, if ignored, will become a drag on our society; they'll need our tax dollars because they'll not be able to support themselves sufficiently. We cannot afford NOT to do all we can to bring them up to par so that they can do well for themselves in the future. If you don't have compassion for them on a personal level, remember that this group will either eat up our tax dollars in the form of welfare and food stamps . . . or they will work and pay our social security benefits. And the direction they go is largely based upon what the schools do for them now.


Now . . . the real special needs kids, who are small in number but significant in dollars . . .

Next there are the kids whose disabilities are more severe. These kids will never hold a "good job"; their opportunities are limited. Their educations are much more expensive than the average student's, but they get a world of good out of it. These are the kids who are capable of someday living in a group home and working in a cafeteria or at McDonalds. Most families cannot afford the therapies that these kids get for free through schools (they're regularly visited by vocational therapists, speech therapists, and more); many of these families are already in financial crisis because these kids are incredibly expensive to raise. These kids may never learn to read and write, but they graduate with an occupational diploma, and by the time they've finished school they have work habits, personal grooming habits, and life skill habits. If you were to compound a dollars-and-cents spreadsheet, you might say that society won't "get as much out of these kids" as it puts in; but it doesn't matter. It's a quality of life issue. It's better for these kids to be able to grow up having some independence and some work skills rather than to be dependant upon the government and their parents for the rest of their lives.

Then there are the severely and profoundly disabled kids. These are the kids who may not speak, may not walk, will always need constant supervision, and will never even be able to do the halfway-house-and-simple-job route. The school may be working with them on things as simple as toilet training. School for them is really the mechanism through which they receive a number of therapies, therapies which most families cannot afford. These therapists aren't school employees; they're the same people who the kids'd be seeing if they were staying home, and they're largely funded through tax dollars; it's efficient for the therapist to see the kids all at school rather than going to multiple private homes. These kids do cost the school system a fortune, but -- even putting the federal law aside -- we're talking about human beings here. Some of these kids have even been put into foster care because their families cannot afford to care for them.

What should be cut? Not education. Could you really come in and tell a family, "Your child deserves less than other children?" I understand perfectly that there isn't enough money to go around, but education isn't the thing to cut.

GREAT post! I was only able to get through parts of this thread. This post just sums up why education is important for EVERY child. :thumbsup2
 
I'm new to this thread and haven't read it all so forgive me if this is way out of line. I'm an educator and have a child who gets both special services AND accelerated classes so I see it from all angles. (My position in the schools also just got cut so I see it from that, too!)

Anyway, I just read an interesting book that showed the latest studies on gifted children. It basically said children development in spurts and not on a consistant curve so depending on when you test a child they may look gifted when they're having a spurt or look average right before a spurt. It said this doesn't actually even out until middle school. You may not even know a child is gifted or not until the later years. I thought that was interesting. Our school just dropped gifted program from the middle and high schools for next year but kept it for elementary. That seems to go against research but then nobody asked me!

I'm not sure I believe that author. Does he/she understand what it takes to show validity on a test, especially an IQ test? I took a university course on this. The IQ tests have a typical standard deviation of 2 points which means the child taking the test could actually be 2 points higher or 2 points lower. Once a child is gifted he/she doesn't lose the "giftedness" from one year to another. They may level out academically, but that is not the same as their intelligence quotient.

At the same time, kids with learning disabilities often test with average or even above average IQ's yet the discrepancy between their IQ and actual academic achievement can be 30 or 40 points (or more) which shows the child should be performing at average or above, but the learning disability interferes with the academics. An IQ test is not the same as being book smart. You don't lose or gain that from one month or year to the next.
 
To anyone who ever doubts that kids with disabilities don't deserve the same quality of life including a free and appropriate education, you MUST watch this video. Keep a box of Kleenex nearby.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=flRvsO8m_KI
That's an amazing story, but I don't think it's applicable here. It's about what a father -- an amazing father -- did for his son. It has nothing to do with what the school system did for him.
BUT the main reason I resent the gifted program is because the learn the FUN way...hands on learning - they aren't stuck in a desk doing worksheets or reading about adobe huts - they are BUILDING them!
Pointing out the obvious: Kids who build the adobe huts certainly will learn that material well, and they'll remember it . . . but they'll only finish one unit while a standard classroom completes 2-3 units of material. I'm not saying that it's bad, but from where will the time come?
Anyway, I just read an interesting book that showed the latest studies on gifted children. It basically said children development in spurts and not on a consistant curve so depending on when you test a child they may look gifted when they're having a spurt or look average right before a spurt. It said this doesn't actually even out until middle school. You may not even know a child is gifted or not until the later years. I thought that was interesting. Our school just dropped gifted program from the middle and high schools for next year but kept it for elementary. That seems to go against research but then nobody asked me!
I have no idea about this particular book, but schools often do what's convenient, not what goes along with the research. For example, we've all read the material about teenagers' biological clocks . . . yet elementary schools begin at 9:00, while high school classes begin at 7:00. Why don't we do the obvious thing and switch the bus schedules so that the teens won't have to fight their biological clocks every day? Two big reasons: Parents want their teens out of school early enough to hit their part-time jobs, and coaches need the afternoon hours for sports practice and travel time to away games.
At the same time, kids with learning disabilities often test with average or even above average IQ's yet the discrepancy between their IQ and actual academic achievement can be 30 or 40 points (or more) which shows the child should be performing at average or above, but the learning disability interferes with the academics. An IQ test is not the same as being book smart. You don't lose or gain that from one month or year to the next.
Standard deviation for an IQ test is 10 points.

Your description of a learning disability is correct, BUT in reality many kids who are labeled "learning disabled" are really just behind. A kid who's learning disabled might be average (or better) at reading and writing . . . but math might be near-impossible for him. Or another kid might be fine with reading and math, but can't write to save his life. Those are true learning disabilities -- pinpoint problems in an otherwise good student. But in reality, about half our kids who are labeled learning disabled are bad at everything academic, everything across the board. That's just being behind academically, and almost always these "behind on everything" kids have poor study habits and poor support from home.
 







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