WHat Makes a Disney Attraction, a Disney attraction?

[Peter Pirate]

Well Jeff, I do believe we see little of the past 10 years through the same light, but I'll try to explain my view anyway.

I did offer two examples of qualifiers in Tomorrowland Speedway (an error of bygone leadership) & JIYI (today's most glaring miscue). Where I feel these miss the mark is primarily they aren't very entertaining. JIYI has decent enough intentions, it just didn't follow through and The Speedway is just too noisy & obnoxious to get your arms around IMO.

It isn't that I believe any piece of junk WILL become a 'Disnye ride' , but I don't believe Disney will just give us 'junk' from now on. I know the spinners drive people crazy around here, but Dumbo is a huge favorite with the kiddies & I'm sure Aladdin will be as well. Disney needs to satisfy the desires of the under 42" crowd as well (the addition of Alladin may lower the wait times for Dumbo, satisfying parents as well). Besides Space is under construction as are the family coasters at AK.

I think the last 10 years have given us great 'future classics' in TOT, RnR, TT, SW.

Again it could be that because I visit so frequently I see things in a different light or because I'm going with my kids and it's 'our time.' But I believe the Magic lies in Disney itself and not the attraction.

Landbaron, we can agree on the (new) scale. I think if quality, by my definition is achieved then a Disney ride will most always be born whether it was self produced or bought off the shelf.

Lastly, my opinion of RnR is "E ticket" all the way. The only two faults I have with it are (1) the length of the ride & (2) The Aerosmith tie in. But I think Disney intentianlly made the ride short knowing that most Disney guests aren't coaster nuts and this is a "preview" to a real coaster, if you will. As for the Aerosmith tie in, I think Aerosmith will soon get Old (no pun intended), but the beauty of the ride is that a new scenerio will be a reletively inexpensive and the re-hab quick...

 

[YoHo]

I (as usual) will disagree with the presumption that Aerosmith, a band that has had billboard topping Singles and records in each of the past 3 DECADES will be old. Aerosmith was a band when WDW was still a swamp.


First, I think the pirate and I are at least close to on the same page here. WDW is an expireance and while I May or may not have gone overboard on my story angle, I really must say that WDW is an expireance, not a collection of rides, or even attractions.

Now as for landbaron's rating the Disneyness of an attraction based on its ticket value, I just disagree.
as I've been try ing to point out, To me, Mainstreet USA is an attraction in and of itself and to me it has everything we've talkedd about that make up an E-ticket. Yet it is given to us for free.


I'll have more to say when II'm on a computer whose keyboard works.

 

[JeffJewell]

Where I feel these miss the mark is primarily they aren't very entertaining.

...fair enough, realizing "entertaining" is an entirely subjective criteria for measuring Disney-ness. On that scale, I personally think the ride suffers most from lack of a tie-in to the "rest" of Disney, although at the time it was built, it did kind of fit the Tomorrowland theme.

About calling the Speedway "an error of bygone leadership..." Although I don't stand in line for the ride anymore, myself, it was quite an experience in 1972 when I was seven (this past March, my 33 year old sister _did_ wait in line to ride the Speedway with her husband and baby girl. I just took pictures, but WDW still means Speedway to some people). That was long before there were go-cart parks in every town, and the Speedway was a highlight of several trips. I don't remember a short line, once.

While I agree the Speedway has outlived its usefulness, I think labelling the whole shebang an error is pretty unfair.

I don't believe Disney will just give us 'junk' from now on.

We'll just have to agree to disagree on that one. I believe the best indicator of future actions are past actions, so I think Imagineering will continue to be cut, jobs will continue to be shopped out, and contracts will continue to go to the lowest bidder. I think that's a poor way to put together rides that have the characteristics we've mentioned in this thread.

I believe the Magic lies in Disney itself and not the attraction

I guess I just don't understand your definition of that Magic.

I say that because I agree completely with that statement, but not in the context you use it. The Magic for me was the hard-to-define attention to detail that was largely the product of the Imagineering department. The same Imagineering department losing work when rides are bought from outside, and consequently keeps getting its budgets cut. WDI was the heart of the "Disney" I'm talking about, but has been mostly cut out of the current Disney you're talking about.

Without its heart, I don't feel the Magic lies in Disney itself anymore. With the crippled creative division becoming lost in the media empire, the rides themselves have been hit and miss and the overall focus seems to be blurring.

The Disney that created so much of its output from the same offices had more focus. More heart, I think.

Jeff

 

[DVC-Landbaron]

The Magic for me was the hard-to-define attention to detail that was largely the product of the Imagineering department.

Even as far back as 1972 used to call that elusive "hard-to-define" thing as the Disney "TOUCH".

The Disney that created so much of its output from the same offices had more focus. More heart, I think.

I used to call Ei$ner's leadership a cancer. But lately I've changed it to "Heart Disease". Better imagery and more in keeping with Disney I think.

 

[Peter Pirate]

Yoho, I think Aerosmith is fine for the time being, but you have to admit that they will lose their appeal in relatively short time (they're in their mid 50's aren't they?). Aside from that, we pretty much agree (although I hope your small "p" in pirate was a typo, lol). I too agree that it is WDW as a whole that makes the experience. Comparing Tiki Birds to Space Mountain is a comparison that IMO, just doesn't need to be made...

Jeff, I too can agree with your explanation of the Speedway, but it has far outlived its usefulness. Further, while it was fun (before go-carts and all) does it ring of Disney? It just never did to me...We will have to agree to disagree on the past & coming attractions, I guess, as I'm excited about all of them (including the spinner Aladdin, which will be a real nice addition to that particular area).

While we agree on definition, you were more impressed with the technology & presentation while I am more impressed by the general ambiance Disney has created. The freedom to escape the everyday hustle & bustle, the relative safety, the cleanliness, the smiling CM's, the characters, the little gifts (like the Statues in France or the Acrobats in China or the hidden trail in AK or looking for the hidden Mickey's). See, our definition is the same, I think it's just our perspective that differs...And thats OK too, as long as Disney continues...

 

[DVC-Landbaron]

While we agree on definition, you were more impressed with the technology & presentation while I am more impressed by the general ambiance Disney has created.

What’s the title of this thread anyway??!! Man oh man!! You don’t see me drifting “off-topic” like this!! Am I the only one grounded here? Do you want to talk Disney ambiance or are we talking rides? (I can do both!!) I believe the title of the thread is “What Makes a Disney Attraction, a Disney attraction?” Attractions!! Rides!! Not over-all feel of the park! So it makes perfect sense to:

Comparing Tiki Birds to Space Mountain is a comparison that IMO, just doesn't need to be made

Is Tiki Birds a Disney Attraction? Does it have some (if not all) of the elements we have been talking about? Is Space Mountain a Disney Attraction? Does it have some (if not all) of the elements we have been talking about? Yet, are they the same? Are they different, yet still “Disney”? How far apart are they? Can the difference be measured? If so, how would you quantify the difference? And what can we learn from this exercise that can be extrapolated to future attractions and rumors that we hear?

PETER!!!! For one of the first times since I met you, I’m at least semi on your side!! Many call for Disney to add “E” ticket rides every year. They moan and complain that Disney has not added enough. And every time they offer up a new attraction or we hear a rumor, they clamor about “Disney” this and “Disney” that, and how it needs to be bigger and better and… well… I guess… “E” ticket stuff!!! I’m trying, in my way, to join the Eisner defenders (Oh my God!! Did I say that???) and defend some ‘lesser’ Disney attractions.

The way I see it, YoHo asked a question. “What Makes a Disney Attraction, a Disney Attraction?” I have been trying to answer that. You keep changing the topic. If you want to talk about ambiance and Disney ‘feel’, that’s fine. But let’s not confuse it with what makes up a Disney attraction.

Now I keeping with attractions; Why aren’t Tiki Birds and Space Mountain the same? Are they still both Disney attractions? Etc. etc. etc. (fill in you own questions)

OR – If you want to talk about ambiance. What’s the deal with them making a shopping mall out of Main Street!!!! Talk about a BAD show!!! GOOD GRIEF!!!! Won’t Ei$ner ever get a grip!! Did they really need to cut into that wonderful ambiance by taking away that alley? That cozy little…. - Anyway, you get the idea!!

 

[Peter Pirate]

I didn't intend to change the subject but I see that I did and I apologize. I was merely trying to answer Jeff's points, but things he sees one way make no sense to me because my love of Disney comes from another direction, thusly making no sense to him (no right or wrong, mind you).

Maybe in my dreams a proper response will come but last night I dreamed of a girl friend I had my sophomore
year in college (and haven't thought of since)...My wife wasn't pleased when I told her about it. I told her it was better than dreaming about Eisner and she had to reuctantly concur...So, tonight it'll either be junior year or The Tiki Birds...hmmm...

Blame my incoherence on Landbaron. He confused me and I'm normally used to that state...Captain Crook, please sail home... now!

 

[JeffJewell]

I didn't intend to change the subject but I see that I did and I apologize. I was merely trying to answer Jeff's points

...as you allude, you did have some help in changing the topic. Sometimes it's difficult for me to explain the part of Disney that meant so much to me without using (what I feel to be) present-day examples of the opposite. Since that usually ends up encouraging folks to address those examples, well, let's just say I realize that I'm probably the biggest culprit when it comes to a lot of our conversations heading in the same direction.

On one level, we're all on precisely the same page: we each have an attachment to Disney that is important to us and we hope to further cultivate that attachment in the future. Our differences come about from differing opinions on what would most enable us to further cultivate that attachment.

I'll probably back out of the thread at this point, mostly because I think I've already captured what I wanted to say in it, and more reiteration would probably lead to more heading off topic. But I'll still be reading to see the rest of you further define your own "Disney" attractions.

Jeff

 

[YoHo]

What a Love fest

I too have to claim responsibilty for taking us off topic. But I didn't intend for it to be off topic. Afterall, it was landbaron who in another thread said that attraction does not just mean ride. A far cry from his more recent comment. I myself am trying to make the case that many of the Ambience things are attractions in and of themselves and that those touches are help what turn a themed spinner into a Disney ride, or even, dare I suggest it a story. Upon further thought, I think Aladdin and to a far lesser extent the Astro orbitoprs are better examples of this then Dumbo. Aladdin is the centerpiece of a themed areathat brings you in to the story of Agrabah. In this case, the story isn't a linear prose story, but an emersive one that others have deemed to describe as a different heading. at any rate. To my mind, a Disney attraction does not refer simply to rides, or even simply to a singular expireance. Others are free to and likely to disagree.

 

[hopemax]

Hi guys,

I don't normally post on this particular board, but if some of you read the LaughingPlace Message Boards or read rec.arts.disney.parks 3-5 years ago you may have seen my posts before.

This topic came up on LP not to long ago, and unfortunately the discussion didn't continue too long because the thread quickly degenerated, but when I saw the question here I thought I'd try and repost my thoughts.

Basically I've decided that words like "story" and "theme" aren't good enough words to adequately describe what I think makes Disney attractions *Disney*. I'm currently leaning toward something more of Disney attractions create "emotional connections." The reasons they succeed is in huge part because of the emotional baggage people bring with them to the parks. And that theming, story and details aren't as important as generating that emotional connection. They are the tools to help establish that connection, but the level of theming or the depth of story can be minimized or maximized depending on necessity. That's why it's hard to look at a ride and answer the question, "what's the story?" There is no one answer a lot of the time because it's different for everyone, because *you* bring half of it with you!

Think back to when you were a kid. What did you pretend to be, what did you want to be when you grew up, who did you want to be for Halloween. How many of those things are represented by Disney attractions? For me, I used to trapse around the empty lot with tall grasses pretending to be in the jungle, so Jungle Cruise was a really cool thing for me to ride and still is. Even things like Dumbo worked for me, more than the almost identical Rocket Jets, because I had the Dumbo Golden Book and read it a lot, and I thought an elephant flying was insanely funny. Airplanes that's standard but elephants!

Some of the recent Disney fare hasn't worked well for me, and I think it's because the emotional connection isn't there. I think something like Rock & Roller Coaster would work better for me if it wasn't Aerosmith. I particularly care for their music, never wanted to be a rock star, so even though the ride itself is fun the overall experience is only eh. By putting Aerosmith in there it makes it too limiting. It works really well for people who like Aerosmith and wanted to be in Hollywood, it works pretty well for people who wanted to be in Hollywood (but would have worked the same if Aerosmith wasn't there and a generic rock song was played instead), but it doesn't work so well for people who don't like Aerosmith or wanted to be in Hollywood.

Same thing with the Paradise Pier section of DCA. Up in Wa we don't have those seaside amusement parks, there is nothing from my life experience to make me feel any sense of nostalgia. I don't have any, "This reminds me of those trips we used to take to ____" And the simple things like the Maliboomer, who ever wanted to be part of a test of strength game? I think Paradise Pier probably works well for S. Californians and probably New Yorkers, but if the goal of the park is to get hotel guests to stay another day or two, they should have considered that those out of town guests might not care about reliving the days of the old seaside amusement park because they never went to them in the first place!

I also think that sometimes you can have a successful attraction even if people don't have that emotional connection. But I think that comes from overwhelming the senses. Speed, noise, lots of colors, lots of action, stuff like that. It creates an adreneline and endorphin rush which pleases the body, but wears off with time, which is why we can get into the "build it higher & faster" mentality.

I also think presentation (where maintence, cleanliness come into play) is a big key. I'm remembering the Cosby Show episode when Vanessa brings home Dabnus and Cliff explains presentation to Dabnus with the difference between a 5-course meal being presented on a china plate and the exact same food being presented on a garbage can lid.

Oh that was long, but I hope you get the general idea even if you think the examples leave room to be desired.

 

[larworth]

I agree, an emotional connection makes many of these experiences much better. Dumbo works with no real story being provided, because so many people bring the story with them.

ToT goes up a notch in my book because of the Twilight Zone connection. I love the whole pre-show, pre-drop set-up. My kids love the ride, but would be happy to skip the pre-show. They had never seen a TZ re-run. Funny there are none on cable today.

Same for RnR coaster. To me the Aerosmith music is the perfect companion for this ride. While they could have gotten by with an unknown score my brain says WOW this music is perfect, and it makes it that much more enjoyable. Plus, when I hear one of their songs on the radio today I flashback to the parks. Something I wouldn’t get if the score was original (see rating below)

My favorite ride is Splash Mountain. However, I have no emotional connection to this ride. Never saw Song of the South. I am just continually blown away by the experience. I was never a huge muppets fan, but Muppets 3D for some reason touches something inside that makes me smile. Couldn’t think of visiting WDW and not doing this.

No problem adding this to the list. It definitely enhances the experience, but for me it is not an essential ingredient.


RnR: I think DVC asked earlier what rating we would give this ride. I'm fine with everything, but the ride length. Your just getting into it and it is over. The fact that it is 30 seconds too short puts it into the D, D+ range.

 

[YoHo]

hopemax, I like your thinking, but I also think it needn't apply all the time.


There are some things that are sort of considered global history for all americans. Small town Missouri is nothing like small town Washington St, yet Mainstreet USA touches a huge emoptional nerve. Similarly, we individuals may have no connection to the golden age of hollywood, yet The entrance and main streets of Disney Studios connect with many guests. Finally, If emotional baggage is all that matters, then how does Epcot work at all?

No, I think we need to expand the conceptof emotional baggage to include the collective american memorues. A concept which may slowly be drifting away. Epcot's World's fair plays well, because it is just an Atmosphere that the magority of Americans feel "right" in.


So, perhaps we add a subcategory that a good Disney attraction simply IS Americana. How and why, eh, that's a complex question, but Americana it is. Perhaps if Paradise peir had met its full potential, it would have overcome the lack of emotional baggage and been accepted into our collective memories.

 

[DisDuck]

Hi everyone. Been away for a while (personal reasons) but it sounds like being the oldest of the group (grew up in the 50's) I have strong emotional ties to Disney.

To me the PARK(s) is the Attraction. Entering any Disney Park (in WDW, going to DL in November) brings back my childhood of Mickey Mouse Club, Wonderful World of Disney. I rate the Parks as E-ticket. Each individual ride/attraction/show is just a nice piece of the pie. Some slices bigger than others.

 

[YoHo]

Thanks DisDuck, its good to know someone else sees that its the magic all around you that makes it Disney

 

[DVC-Landbaron]

My goodness YoHo and my good Duck. I will discuss any aspect of Disney you want to. Do you want to start a thread that reads:

Disney ambience - What it is?
What makes a Disney Park - Disney?
Disney rides and their surroundings - How should they interact?
Just what is the "Disney Touch"
The subtle Disney - IOA hasn't got a clue!

Or anything else. But you didn't!!!! You asked "WHat Makes a Disney Attraction, a Disney attraction?" For the first time since I timidly posted my first post on the DIS, I really tried to stay focused on the issue. Because I think it is an important issue. One that could use a 'whole bunch' of dialogue and thoughtful discussion.

As you may have guessed, I can talk Disney with the best of them. So, do you what to change topics?

 

[YoHo]

Landbaron, Your focus amazes me.

In this case. I wanted to make the implication that the Disneyness of an attraction can be aided and abetted by the supporting area Themeing. As a matter of fact, it has to. Its especially important in rides not enclosed in a structure.I am of course treading a fine line. And I take it by your comments that you reject my claim that Mainstreet USA is in and of itself and Attraction.

But, we can Diversify. What makes Disney Themeing/Story telling Disney Themeing and storytelling?

In this case, I think its the way they blend everything. A six flaggs or Busch park has themed buildings and themed Vegitation etc. they even occasionally have themed "Lands" but for all that, they do a terrible job of making things fit together.
At Disney. The Attractions, Landscaping, Food vendors, walkways all blend.


As an aside, this was my problem with the tommorrowland makeover. the buildings all look great, but the slabs of concrete and Ashphalt are the widest in the kingdom with the least effort payed to themeing. This was all well and good with the old Tomorrowland where austere and bland was the future. The New tomorrowland needs to reflect the ornate whimsy of the authors whose works it is based on. Heck, Even some moving Walkways from O'Hare Airport and some Startrek Style fake (or unique live) landscaping would help.

Anyway, its all about blend.

 

[DVC-Landbaron]

I am of course treading a fine line. And I take it by your comments that you reject my claim that Mainstreet USA is in and of itself and Attraction.

Well. I can certainly see your point. But then we have to come up with another name for something that would have cost you money in the old days. You know, the "things" that people stand in line for. The 'things" that spin, roll, move or shows you a specific story at a predetermined time throughout the day. You see, that is what happens when the "passport" or the all inclusive, one price, all-rides-free concept takes over. I think it is VERY important to at least give a passing thought to the roots of the theme park as envisioned by Walt. What did he want to create on the very first day he thought about it.

The idea was to have an amusement park (could be a typical amusement park for all we know) that was clean, not seedy, and a fun place to be. He hadn't considered rides yet. This alone was a massive undertaking. Anyone who visited Coney Island or in Chicago, Riverview, saw an amusement park that was dirty (my God, they were filthy!!) loaded with undesirable people (swilling beer), little security, and while they were fun because of the rides they offered, by themselves they were nothing more than a collection of littler strewn sidewalks and filthy bathrooms (if the worked at all!). YUCK!!!!

So Walt set out to change that. He envisioned a park that was clean (darn well sparkling!!) and that served no alcohol (thus reducing the seedy, undesirable element) and was fun to be in without any rides!!! Lush landscaping, carefully detailed streets! WOW!! Like a movie set! HEY!! How about that? A movie guy building a 3-D movie set that people could interact with. Think this happened by accident? And we haven't even considered a ride yet!!

And to top it all off he wanted it to free to the public! 100% free! He didn't want to charge a thin dime for it. Roy, however, was horrified by this. Just the upkeep was enough to send them to the poor farm. So, he sold Walt on the idea of a NOMINAL charge to enter the park with the argument that it would keep the riff-raff out.

So, I ask you. What do we call this aspect of the park? We haven't discussed rides or attractions at all. Is Main Street an attraction? Well, yes and no. Yes in the sense that Walt envisioned it to be pleasing, fun, interactive and magical. But, no, when Ei$ner puts in a themed area (or restaurant, etc.) and officially lists it as an attraction.

I'm out of ideas for the moment. Your turn.

 

[YoHo]

Touche'

All I can say is that I still feel that one of the best parts of DIsney is the way the attraction blends with the surroundings. THe best example might be Adventureland where you have starkly different architecture that all fits together. I actually can't wait to see Agrabah, I think that if it doesn't have that blend, then it may be the final Straw. And it will be tough since the desert is so vastly different from the Jungle. The Attraction in this case for me is an Afterthought.


So, Landbaron(and anyone else), I realize that in reality Attractions and Ambeiance are likely equals, but if you were forced at gun point to chose between Blend and general themeing, and Disney Attractions, Which do you think is more important? I would tend towards Blend and Themeing simply, because it was there from Day one. It is also the most obvious and important thing that Seperates Disney from a Kiddieland, Riverview, Coney Island (well, besides beer and dirt).

 

[DisDuck]

I must defend Coney Island. In the 50's when I went to Steeplechase Park, the beer was there (I was too young to see it) but not the dirt. That was my DisneyLand as a child since DL existed only on TV for me and my family.

I go with YoHo. I see the blending/themeing. It hits me when I cross under the train station (pass the lockers) see Main Street with the Castle in the background. I am home.