What length of paper should a 4th grader reasonably be expected to write without help

[Lisa loves Pooh]

...My daughter is 4th grade in our 9th week of curriculum for homeschool. She has been in a speech class the whole semester and did fine with shorter speeches at 1 minute but is struggling with 3-5 minute speeches which are considerably longer.

The estimated wordcount should be about 500 words.

I'm wondering if that is something a 4th grader shoudl be able to do?

Lest anyone think I am helicoptering, I am not--I do expect my child to learn and do the work. However, we had much behavioral issues this week and I've opted to let her take the fall--her speech is only 229 words and half the minimum length. I'm just wondering if my expectations were too high in the first place for enrolling her in the class so that I can make better choices with electives in the future.

Our curriculum just began writing in 4th grade following the classical model of education. Prior to that the child dictates whatever the assignment was and I would print it for her and then she would copy it. This year, she is learning to put her thoughts straight to paper and I am unclear if my decision to have her take this elective was a poor choice for her skill level. The work will still be included in her portfolio.

Thanks.

 

[happygirl]

That sounds like a lot for a 4th grader

 

[golfgal]

A 4th grader should easily be able to do a 3-5 minute speech. One thing about doing a speech in a homeschool situation is that she doesn't have to speak in public. Maybe you could see if she can do a reading or something at church since really the point of doing speeches is to get used to speaking in public and mom doesn't count as "public"

 

[Disneycrazymom]

If I am understanding the speech class is with a group not at home?

Anyway DD is in 4th grade and they are doing "research" papers of about 2 pages with some kind of chart or project included. She has had to do a paper a month so far this year. For example she did a state report. It included 2 typed pages, a picture of the state flag, the state symbol, and another page with pictures of interesting facts. They had to present the information to the class. Last month was a science report. Hers was weather. She had to do the paper of 2 pages and then build a working weather instrument. We did a thermometer. At least for her these seem about right. Not too easy but not so overwhelming that the parents have to help too much. Not that is matters but she is in a priviate school.

 

[Callie]

When I was in 5th grade I had to write a 1000 word paper, I think mine ended up being around 8 pages? We also have to give 20-30 minute presentation. If I remember in 4th grade, we usually had 4 to 5 page papers, and 10 minute presentations. It can really depend on what type of school for whats "normal"

 

[Briarmom]

Let her take the fall. I am going to assume that she's doing this in front of her co-op (not just in front of mom ). It would be a struggle for my son as well, but if she knew she had to prepare it and had ample time to do so, she can face the consequences.

 

[dis-happy]

Does she have the tools to write a 3-5 minute speech? My homeschooled 4th grader has a writing curriculum which spends a lot of time breaking a longer essay into components. They need to learn the basics first. Starting wtih a topic and adding to it. First just one paragraph, then expanding into 3-5 paragraphs, then stringing those together into a longer paper. We use different visual writing aids for this...ie. one has a circle (the topic) with lines coming off of it (supporting ideas). Depending on what kind of learning style your dd has, something like this might help.

Also, if she's struggling, I'd help her, teaching as you go along. My ds struggles in his French class (much more so than the other students) and I feel like it's my job as the homeschool mom to help him learn the material, even if that takes add'l time and effort on my part. The good news: eventually, they get it!

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

A 4th grader should easily be able to do a 3-5 minute speech. One thing about doing a speech in a homeschool situation is that she doesn't have to speak in public. Maybe you could see if she can do a reading or something at church since really the point of doing speeches is to get used to speaking in public and mom doesn't count as "public"

The point of my posting was that I enrolled her ELSEWHERE so that she could learn to speak in public in a group setting.

Also--my question wasn't if she could speak for 3-5 minutes, but if the written length was appropriate for a 4th grader, especially with her skill level given our curriculum. I'm sorry that you missed that and felt the need to resort to mockery.

Does she have the tools to write a 3-5 minute speech? My homeschooled 4th grader has a writing curriculum which spends a lot of time breaking a longer essay into components. They need to learn the basics first. Starting wtih a topic and adding to it.

I think that is the problem and my mistake--the class is for 4th-6th graders so probably assumes a skill level that she hasn't attained yet.

We did begin writing strands, but even the level that she is on, would not have her prepping an assignment of that length by the end.

So I probably put the cart before the horse so to speak.

She did take the fall and got a 65% and I will expect her to utilize the instructors notes to fill in the gaps and make the speech appropriate in content and length.

Thanks for the comments everyone. They are helpful. Sounds like academically she was on the right track--but this class was over her head for the expectations of the students.


Disneycrazymom, was your DD's paper single or double spaced? My dd's was single spaced and half a page, so if we did ds, it would have been a full page.

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

Also, if she's struggling, I'd help her, teaching as you go along. My ds struggles in his French class (much more so than the other students) and I feel like it's my job as the homeschool mom to help him learn the material, even if that takes add'l time and effort on my part. The good news: eventually, they get it!

I agree. In this situation we had behavioral issues with the assignment as well and I helped her numerous times. I didn't completely abandon her. But when it was evident that she was going to not put in full effort, I backed away to let her take the fall.

I'll help her more this weekend, but it was nice that she was graded for her what she was willing to accomplish, KWIM?


Thanks again for the help!

 

[golfgal]

The point of my posting was that I enrolled her ELSEWHERE so that she could learn to speak in public in a group setting.

Also--my question wasn't if she could speak for 3-5 minutes, but if the written length was appropriate for a 4th grader, especially with her skill level given our curriculum. I'm sorry that you missed that and felt the need to resort to mockery.



I think that is the problem and my mistake--the class is for 4th-6th graders so probably assumes a skill level that she hasn't attained yet.

We did begin writing strands, but even the level that she is on, would not have her prepping an assignment of that length by the end.

So I probably put the cart before the horse so to speak.

She did take the fall and got a 65% and I will expect her to utilize the instructors notes to fill in the gaps and make the speech appropriate in content and length.

Thanks for the comments everyone. They are helpful. Sounds like academically she was on the right track--but this class was over her head for the expectations of the students.


Disneycrazymom, was your DD's paper single or double spaced? My dd's was single spaced and half a page, so if we did ds, it would have been a full page.

I wasn't mocking you and no where did you say you enrolled her elsewhere-you said you homeschool. Then you went on to talk about a 3-5 minute speech she had to give and it came out to be half of that so I answered that she should be able to give a 3-5 minute speech-why so defensive????

 

[K and K's Mommy]

. I'm just wondering if my expectations were too high in the first place for enrolling her in the class so that I can make better choices with electives in the future.

Our curriculum just began writing in 4th grade following the classical model of education. Prior to that the child dictates whatever the assignment was and I would print it for her and then she would copy it. This year, she is learning to put her thoughts straight to paper and I am unclear if my decision to have her take this elective was a poor choice for her skill level. The work will still be included in her portfolio.

Thanks.

Last year my then 4th grader did at least 2 three to five minute speeches. The first one was hard, but the second one was over their research project. I had to make him shorten that speech because he enjoyed the researching so much.

Based on what you say about her previous experiences writing, I do think the class was too hard for her. My above mentioned child has been writing since kindergarten so this wasn't a new experience for him.

 

[ladycollector]

I wasn't mocking you and no where did you say you enrolled her elsewhere-you said you homeschool. Then you went on to talk about a 3-5 minute speech she had to give and it came out to be half of that so I answered that she should be able to give a 3-5 minute speech-why so defensive????

She did in fact mention it, for one.

And second, as a former homeschooler, we get a lot of crap and your post came off as a bit snippy.

 

[daisyduck123]

Hey I am all for homeschooling (it was the topic of my master's thesis back in the late '80s) but I would seriously question any curriculum that doesn't have a child doing their own writing until the 4th grade. That's ridiculous IMO. So I wouldn't even be worried about the whole speech thing. I'd be tossing that curriculum & finding a new one.

My 1st grade students are up to writing a 4-sentence paragraph consisting of a main idea & three additional sentences with details to support their main idea.

 

[SnowWhite607]

Hey I am all for homeschooling (it was the topic of my master's thesis back in the late '80s) but I would seriously question any curriculum that doesn't have a child doing their own writing until the 4th grade. That's ridiculous IMO. So I wouldn't even be worried about the whole speech thing. I'd be tossing that curriculum & finding a new one.

My 1st grade students are up to writing a 4-sentence paragraph consisting of a main idea & three additional sentences with details to support their main idea.

I make my kindergarten kids write a journal topic daily starting in January. It may be "In summer, I like to___________" and they have to copy and then fill in with their thoughts and a drawing. I agree, writing is so important to learn early.

I'm not a homeschooler so I am not sure if I get how you would copy the assignment and she would then copy it on her paper? Even up until this 4th grade year? I have a 3rd grader and I cant imagine doing that, if I am understanding correctly.

 

[Scurvy]

I don't teach fourth grade but I have taught third grade, and I've worked with fourth graders. In my experience a 500 word paper is a reasonable thing to expect from a fourth grade student. Kids vary, of course, and it will come easier for some than for others. I do think that by fourth grade children ought to be comfortable with the idea of writing a paper of that length, even if the paper isn't perfect. Writing is stressed much more in classrooms these days than it was when I was in school. Even kindergarteners are expected to do daily writing assignments, and those continue (and get longer) in each grade thereafter.

If the curriculum you use doesn't encourage the student to write very much I would recommend supplementing with some additional writing assignments, especially if your daughter will be attending a school or additional classes in the future. (That isn't meant to be snarky or critical! There's just such a strong focus on writing these days - in most subjects, not just English - that falling behind your peers with that can make things more difficult than they need to be.)

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

I wasn't mocking you and no where did you say you enrolled her elsewhere-you said you homeschool. Then you went on to talk about a 3-5 minute speech she had to give and it came out to be half of that so I answered that she should be able to give a 3-5 minute speech-why so defensive????

I clearly said she was in a class and the question I asked was clearly about the writing of the paper.

Your last sentence couple with this guy --> was rude and mean.

She has to write the entire speech--she could have given a longer speech, but she can only say what she writes--hence her speech was only half the length.

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

Hey I am all for homeschooling (it was the topic of my master's thesis back in the late '80s) but I would seriously question any curriculum that doesn't have a child doing their own writing until the 4th grade. That's ridiculous IMO. So I wouldn't even be worried about the whole speech thing. I'd be tossing that curriculum & finding a new one.

My 1st grade students are up to writing a 4-sentence paragraph consisting of a main idea & three additional sentences with details to support their main idea.

The curriculum is different from mainstream and you are free to disagree with it. It follows the classical model and the first 4 years (K-3) focus on developing the ability to orate the stories, responses, retellings of work and separates the act of writing them. (So dictate what you want to say, parent writes down, and then student copies.) She is able to write things on her own and has for a while. My questioned pertained to what was normal for other 4th graders to assess if it was an expected deficiency via the method of education or if it was too much for a 4th grader to begin with.

It seems the answers are mixed.

I have no interest in tossing her curriculum as the method is very well recognized, but thank you for your critique.

 

[cruisnfamily]

If she were in public school, this is the year she'd be taking the FCAT writing test in March. I googled the rubric and while it does not give a word count, it does require some pretty demanding and well organized writing. I would take this as the standard that the average Florida 4th grader should be able to write at. Here's a link: http://fcat.fldoe.org/pdf/rubrcw04.pdf

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

I make my kindergarten kids write a journal topic daily starting in January. It may be "In summer, I like to___________" and they have to copy and then fill in with their thoughts and a drawing. I agree, writing is so important to learn early.

I'm not a homeschooler so I am not sure if I get how you would copy the assignment and she would then copy it on her paper? Even up until this 4th grade year? I have a 3rd grader and I cant imagine doing that, if I am understanding correctly.

It is the classical model of education (feel free to google it)--

Sample assignment from First graders work:

"Retell and illustrate something about the saint you read about yesterday while someone writes down what you say"

Sometimes it gets copied the following day, but for some reason, not that time.

Samples from 4th grade:

I won't copy all of her objectives, but the one pertaining to original writing states: "To observe, through dication samples, well constructed paragraphs."

English sample: "Have your student do Lesson 16, using the information discussed yesterday (something about birds). Do the composing today (via dictating to me), and the writing tomorrow."

Pretty mhch of the composition is still oral, I write it and then copied.

For anyone worried about my child's academics--feel free to google and read about Classical Education.

Have a great day everyone!

 

[Buckalew11]

I don't teach fourth grade but I have taught third grade, and I've worked with fourth graders. In my experience a 500 word paper is a reasonable thing to expect from a fourth grade student. Kids vary, of course, and it will come easier for some than for others. I do think that by fourth grade children ought to be comfortable with the idea of writing a paper of that length, even if the paper isn't perfect. Writing is stressed much more in classrooms these days than it was when I was in school. Even kindergarteners are expected to do daily writing assignments, and those continue (and get longer) in each grade thereafter.

If the curriculum you use doesn't encourage the student to write very much I would recommend supplementing with some additional writing assignments, especially if your daughter will be attending a school or additional classes in the future. (That isn't meant to be snarky or critical! There's just such a strong focus on writing these days - in most subjects, not just English - that falling behind your peers with that can make things more difficult than they need to be.)

DD and I went on a college visit last year in the spring. This is to the college that she hopes to attend. During our visit they talked about how writing was really stressed there and that "you even write in math classes."