What does the Confederate flag mean to you?

[syncer55]

The flag does bring back negative thoughts, but they are allowed to wave it if they want to.

 

[WillyJ]

DVK,

I'm a little confused by a couple things in your post. .

When you say: "None of it was started by americans , and if you actually think about it we were 75 years old when we finally decided to change the slavery policies in the us. ."


None of what?


And what's with the: "To all those people that have issues with this, grow up, and decide to do something that actually matters, educate the public on the issues, and leave MY HISTORY ALONE!!!" stuff??


Are you saying anyone who doesn't think the way you do on this subject is immature?

Why is it only YOUR history? And since when did the "nation" of Texas hold control of Oklahoma and when was Oklahoma part of the confederacy?


Sounds to me like maybe they took it down because it was confusing "some" people. . . LOL!!

 

[kbeverina]

Kendra, you can't ignore the element of revisionist history.

 

[Kendra17]

Originally posted by kbeverina
Kendra, you can't ignore the element of revisionist history.

How do you mean? I acknowledged the Klan and racisim in my post. . .am I missing something?

 

[WillyJ]

Well Kendra, wasn't the swastika originally an early Christian symbol?

Should people still display it if they personally see it as a sign of Christian heritage no matter how it affects others just because the Nazi's stole the symbology of it for themselves? Or do they recognize that no matter the original symbolism it is now seen by most as a hurtful, hateful symbol so it wouldn't be worth doing?


And let's be real here: a big part of that "culture" the confederate flag represents and that is gone was built on the backs of human beings enslaved and bought and sold like animals- the "way of life" the south of those days fought for depended on slavery and that's why it went away when they lost.


In my opinion that's nothing to look back on with pride and respect about. .


I do agree with you that the majority who display the flag do so for what they see as positive reasons; I just don't quite get why they are seen as so positive that they outweigh the neagatives..

 

[kbeverina]

Originally posted by Kendra17

2-For those without an understanding of the Civil War, the Confederate flag (commonly the battle flag of the Confederacy--NOT the national flag), is the symbol of racism--specifically against African Americans. During the 1920s, this symbol became popularly understood to be the flag of the KKK.

I have a clear understanding of the Civil War.

It's a fact that the flag has symbolized racist philosophies. Symbolism is as legitimate in the eye of the beholder as it is in the person waving the flag.

 

[bratray]

no matter how some try to "sugar coat" the symbolism of the confederate flag as a means for southern pride- it really just boils down to a sad time in our history-

the confederate flag waved proudly back in the day when African Americans were treated like dogs & the KKK ruled with a burning cross

i'm sorry but the confederate flag reminds me of a time when my ancestors were not treated as equal americans, i don't know any african americans that remember the confederate flag in a good way

just my thoughts

 

[Kendra17]

Originally posted by WillyJ
Well Kendra, wasn't the swastika originally an early Christian symbol?

Should people still display it if they personally see it as a sign of Christian heritage no matter how it affects others just because the Nazi's stole the symbology of it for themselves? Or do they recognize that no matter the original symbolism it is now seen by most as a hurtful, hateful symbol so it wouldn't be worth doing?


And let's be real here: a big part of that "culture" the confederate flag represents and that is gone was built on the backs of human beings enslaved and bought and sold like animals- the "way of life" the south of those days fought for depended on slavery and that's why it went away when they lost.


In my opinion that's nothing to look back on with pride and respect about. .


I do agree with you that the majority who display the flag do so for what they see as positive reasons; I just don't quite get they are seen as positive..

The Civil War is the most highly documented conflict in human history, excepting WWII. Despite all this documentation, about the war between the states, this current Confederate symbol controversy continues to rage.

The swastika is not a Christian symbol and never has been. Many centuries ago it was a Buddhist symbol of unity in the universe. The Nazis took this symbol mainly for its visual power, calling it the Hackenkreuze . They appreciated it because it appeared to be in motion.

Your point about slaveholding in the Confederacy is well taken. But, the fact that the entire United States was a slave holding just decades before the outbreak Civil War tends to undermine your argument.

Please read the first-person accounts of the secession of the Southern States. This is not done ONLY to protect slavery. The main purpose of secession--as seen by the Confederates--was to protect the culture that they saw as fundamentally different than that of the Northern States.

The origins of the Confederate battle flag are different than the purposes that the Klan used it for. It seems like you are making the argument that the racists have successfully stolen the symbology of the Confederacy. In the popular mind, and in recent history, the battle flag has invariably been associated with racist groups. Those who fly the flag in the south simply want to retain the symbols of their heritage. The association of the battle flag with the Klan is the result of the popularity of the Klan in the 20s and the 30s and that group's ubiquitous use of that symbol through the 1980s. Historians and appreciators of Confederate culture have never been so loud as the Klan. We don't want to lose the meaning of these symbols and surrender them to racists. There is a fundamental meaning of these symbols--and their display in the main reflects this basic meaning.

The Klan's adoption of the Confederate battle flag ought not to prevent Southern people and those who appreciate the better qualities of the Confederacy from displaying it. We ought not to let our national symbols--which the battle flag is--to be stolen by racists and hate-mongers. The Confederates were flexible and wise enough to know by 1864 that slavery would have to end. if the Confederacy had survived, slavery most likely would have ended in the south by the 1870s or 1880s.

The Confederacy never engaged in global warfare, never engaged in genocide, and never engaged in mass murder. The comparison of the battle flag with Nazi symbology is false and unjust. Slavery is an appalling horror, certainly, but genocide, mass murder, and aggressive global warfare is another matter altogether.

There are many excellent qualities that were exhibited by the military and political leaders of the Confederate states. These qualities are nowhere found in the Nazi hierarchy. The confusion between the Confederate battle flag and the swastika in the popular mind is perfectly understandable, but still false.

While I do accept that the battle flag symbol is a "loaded one" and, because of the Klan's use of it, it ought not to fly on any government structures. This would be a show of respect for the African American community.

 

[JoeThaNo1Stunna]

Originally posted by WillyJ


I don't mean this as a moral criticism; it's just that to me it'd be like the Lakers flying the second place banner as a rememberence of the beating the Pistons gave them in the NBA finals this year. . why would they want to be reminded of that?

Well that the Civil War last as long as it did was a testament to the strategic strength and backbone of the Confederate military who were at a severe disadvantage. Early in the war civilians stood around and watched what they thought would be entertainment as the North would surely smash the South and end the war within a month or two.

As a history major, focusing on American history I have learned that Robert E. Lee is probably the greatest military general in our nation's history. He was also a great hero under the American flag in other conflicts, but even with his personal doubts of slavery he felt he had to fight under whatever flag his state of Virginia fought under. In the 1860s, especially in the south your allegiance to your state was much greater than that to your nation. Federal power was not very strong, most decisions were made at the state level.

 

[WillyJ]

Well Kendra, perhaps to you the main negative element people could see in the confederate flag stems from racist groups adopting it as their symbol. . and that the positive attributes of the government and the culture it symbolizes are worth celebrating and memorializing.. .


But there are some that look at it and see a symbol of slavery and a war fought for the right to maintain the system of slavery because that system made the culture possible. . they can't seperate the two.


Both opinions have merit; which one has more probably depends on which side you have sympathy/empathy for: the slaves or the slave owners.

Mine is with the slaves. .

 

[Kendra17]

Originally posted by kbeverina
I have a clear understanding of the Civil War.

It's a fact that the flag has symbolized racist philosophies. Symbolism is as legitimate in the eye of the beholder as it is in the person waving the flag.

Hmmmm. .

The opinion of the flag waver is not equivalent to someone who is viewing that flag waver who is waving his flag. A nation's flag is their symbol and it means what they say it means. the Confederate flag means something very different to a Confederate soldier than it means to Yankee in 2004. Your argument is all about moral equivalence and denuding a symbol of its inherent purpose.

If the Confederacy had won, your opinion of the flag would be of little moment. As it stands, the Confederate battle flag is a symbol of the Lost Cause-- a country that fought valiantly for its existence, a country that fought to repel invaders from its lands, and was wholly unsuccessful. Certainly their is a sentimentality associated with the display of this symbol, in general.

Interpretation of its meaning really cannot rob it of its intrinsic purpose and meaning. Despite the Klan's use of the symbol, the battle flag is nothing more than a proud symbol of a defeated people who recognize the positive qualities of the many thousands of soldiers who died so that that country may live.

To not acknowledge the inherent purpose and meaning of the Confederate flag would be a disservice to that symbol and to those thousands who died to secure their freedoms as they saw it. To preempt any comparison you might make with Nazi symbology, Confederacy had nothing to do with genocide or global conflicts.

In conclusion, the battle flag, as simple as this may sound is, and ought to be, what it was: the battle standard of a proud and brave American people.

 

[WillyJ]

Oh, about the swastika.. .


"The word "swastika" comes from the Sanskrit words su, meaning "well," and asti, meaning 'to be.' An ancient symbol, the swastika was used in various forms by many civilizations all over the world. It was the sign of Thor's hammer for Scandinavians. It was used by early Christians as an alternative cross to avoid persecution, and by later Christians as a decorative emblem. It was widespread among Native American peoples. It appeared in ancient Oriental, Egyptian, and Irish cultures. Its origins are unknown, but its first use might have been as a solar calendar illustration.



Full article


It seems it's been used by many cultures in many variations not just your narrowly defined one. . .

 

[Kendra17]

Originally posted by WillyJ
Well Kendra, perhaps to you the main negative element people could see in the confederate flag stems from racist groups adopting it as their symbol. . and that the positive attributes of the government and the culture it symbolizes are worth celebrating and memorializing.. .


But there are some that look at it and see a symbol of slavery and a war fought for the right to maintain the system of slavery because that system made the culture possible. . they can't seperate the two.


Both opinions have merit; which one has more probably depends on which side you have sympathy/empathy for: the slaves or the slave owners.

Mine is with the slaves. .

I understand your point and have empathy for both.

The vast majority of people in the south, however, did not hold slaves. For the vast majority of the people in the South, the war was not about slavery.

For them, it was about exercising the SAME rights of self-government that the founding fathers did during American Revolution. If you read Jefferson Davis' legal histories, you'll see that he makes a fantastic legal argument that secession is perfectly justifiable insofar as it relates to the Constitution of the United States.

To JoeThaNo1Stunna: Your assertion that Robert E. Lee may have been the greatest commander in United States' history is well appreciated, but I disagree (JMHO). Focusing just on the Civil War alone, other commanders were superior. For example, Nathan Bedford Forrest, Stonewall Jackson, Sherman, John B.Gordon, and James Longstreet (one could also make an argument for Grant or even Sheridan!).

 

[Kendra17]

Originally posted by WillyJ
Oh, about the swastika.. .


"The word "swastika" comes from the Sanskrit words su, meaning "well," and asti, meaning 'to be.' An ancient symbol, the swastika was used in various forms by many civilizations all over the world. It was the sign of Thor's hammer for Scandinavians. It was used by early Christians as an alternative cross to avoid persecution, and by later Christians as a decorative emblem. It was widespread among Native American peoples. It appeared in ancient Oriental, Egyptian, and Irish cultures. Its origins are unknown, but its first use might have been as a solar calendar illustration.



Full article


It seems it's been used by many cultures in many variations not just your narrowly defined one. . .

Thank you very very much! Isn't Hinduism an offshoot of Buddhism? haha, just kidding. . .

http://buddhism.about.com/cs/art/g/Swastika.htm
'
http://web.singnet.com.sg/~sidneys/Swastika.htm

 

[WillyJ]

"the battle flag is nothing more than a proud symbol of a defeated people who recognize the positive qualities of the many thousands of soldiers who died so that that country may live."


No, it can also be seen as a symbol of a repressive society build on the institution of slavery. .


Perhaps you are forgetting that Black people are Americans and their ancestors were part of what that flag represents just as well as white Americans of the time.. .

Or do you feel the flag only represents the white people of the south at the time?

 

[LadyBears]

To me - it reminds me of Bo & Luke Duke (The Dukes of Hazzard) & their General Lee! LOL!


Seriously though - I feel the conferate flag is just a part of American history. Pride of the southerners heritage.

I feel that Slavery was just one part of the Civil war - the straw that broke the camels back. There were sooo many things going on at that point of time.

From: http://www.nps.gov/gett/gettkidz/cause.htm :

Between the years 1800 and 1860, arguments between the North and South grew more intense. One of the main quarrels was about taxes paid on goods brought into this country from foreign countries. This tax was called a tariff. Southerners felt these tariffs were unfair and aimed toward them because they imported a wider variety of goods than most Northern people. Taxes were also placed on many Southern goods that were shipped to foreign countries, an expense that was not always applied to Northern goods of equal value. An awkward economic structure allowed states and private transportation companies to do this, which also affected Southern banks that found themselves paying higher interest rates on loans made with banks in the North. The situation grew worse after several "panics", including one in 1857 that affected more Northern banks than Southern. Southern financiers found themselves burdened with high payments just to save Northern banks that had suffered financial losses through poor investment.
.......


As Kendra just said - if the south won - you would be saying the same thing right now about Old Glory because the confederate flag would be the flag of our country!

A White person flying a conferate flag today in honor of their heritage is no different than an African American wearing a moo moo (is that the right name for the dress that both the men & women wear) around today. Both are symbols of the PAST.

 

[kbeverina]

Originally posted by Kendra17
Please read the first-person accounts of the secession of the Southern States. This is not done ONLY to protect slavery. The main purpose of secession--as seen by the Confederates--was to protect the culture that they saw as fundamentally different than that of the Northern States.

*revisionist history alert*

Those who fly the flag in the south simply want to retain the symbols of their heritage.

Revisionist history does make it simple.

The Confederates were flexible and wise enough to know by 1864 that slavery would have to end. if the Confederacy had survived, slavery most likely would have ended in the south by the 1870s or 1880s.

*revisionist history alert*

The comparison of the battle flag with Nazi symbology is false and unjust.

It's completely valid. It doesn't matter what the Swastika meant before. It will forever be associated with Nazi Germany. The confederate flag will forever be associated with racism and the klan, no matter what it meant before or after. It's that strong a symbol.

 

[WillyJ]

Kendra,



I asked; wasn't the swastika originally an early Christian symbol?

You said no, it had never been a Christian symbol.

I posted an article that said in part: It was used by early Christians as an alternative cross to avoid persecution, and by later Christians as a decorative emblem.

You posted an article that said in part: Its origins, however, lie in the culture of many ancient cultures. .


I win.

 

[Kendra17]

Originally posted by WillyJ
"the battle flag is nothing more than a proud symbol of a defeated people who recognize the positive qualities of the many thousands of soldiers who died so that that country may live."


No, it can also be seen as a symbol of a repressive society build on the institution of slavery. .


Perhaps you are forgetting that Black people are Americans and their ancestors were part of what that flag represents just as well as white Americans of the time.. .

Or do you feel the flag only represents the white people of the south at the time?

With the exception of the few freed blacks living in the South, the majority were slaves and not citizens. Certainly the Confederacy was not an integrated society as we understand the term to mean today. The best historians look at history as if they were living the events--as if they were there. Our hindsight perspective doesn't give us a better perspective on Confederate culture than actual Confederates living the Confederacy, fighting for the Confederacy during the Civil War. Approaching race relations in the Confederate states from a 2004 perspective is not particularly relevant. Reading the diaries, letters, and documents of those who were living at that time, is the key.

Your point is well taken. But, our 140 year separation from the event doesn't make our perspective more valid than Robert E. Lee's or Jefferson Davis', Jackson's or Forrest's.

 

[Kendra17]

Originally posted by WillyJ
Kendra,



I asked; wasn't the swastika originally an early Christian symbol?

You said no, it had never been a Christian symbol.

I posted an article that said in part: It was used by early Christians as an alternative cross to avoid persecution, and by later Christians as a decorative emblem.

You posted an article that said in part: Its origins, however, lie in the culture of many ancient cultures. .


I win.

It's about time! Congratulations!

I won about the Muslim points, though, and you never gave me the credit!