What does Obama stand for?

[MassJester]

We're probably going to have to agree to disagree here. The liberals and the media have given President Bush zero credit for the economic and job growth that has occured for the last 4 years. The U.S. economy has outperformed its peer group of Canada, the European Union, and Japan. The U.S. led in real GDP growth, investment, industrial production, employment, labor productivity, and price stability.

The economy is cooling now, because the business cycle does go through, well, cycles, and you want to act like it's been that way all along. Sorry, I'm a lot better informed than to fall for that.

I could provide reams of stats to back this up. But my computer is acting very sluggish, and I've got real life work to do - but hopefully the government will actually give me some of the money that I earn today.

I would like to ask one question though. For those of you who say cutting taxes for the top earners doesn't help the economy. What about on the flip side? Is there a hypothetical tax rate that's so confiscatory that you think it could slow growth?

Yeah, we don't agree. I agree that there are economic cycles, but I don't agree that this is what we've seen. I think we've seen an economic flash in the pan driven by a short burst of fuel (spend more, tax less), and an unregulated lending industry piling up billions in fake wealth.

We do agree that the Bush administration is responsible.

 

[meandtheguys2]

That really makes me sad. People will vote for the Leader of their nation, but they won't take time to read a book or check out a website to find out what that person is about before they do it?

I guess that's what they mean when they say we get the government we deserve.

Reading a propaganda book benefits what? Reading a website written by the pimps...I mean campaign managers is going to give an honest viewpoint?

At least when they speak, you can watch their body language, and use more than your ears in judging the person speaking. Probably why they'd rather you visit their spiffed up website...oh yeah...and make a donation while you are there!

It amazes me how many people think they are so far above others...

 

[MassJester]

Reading a propaganda book benefits what? Reading a website written by the pimps...I mean campaign managers is going to give an honest viewpoint?

At least when they speak, you can watch their body language, and use more than your ears in judging the person speaking. Probably why they'd rather you visit their spiffed up website...oh yeah...and make a donation while you are there!

I somewhat agree. I think the nice thing about this election is that looking at McCain and Obama, I see two fellows who I believe are both principled, honest, and trustworthy -- what a huge improvement over the last election.

 

[Fitswimmer]

Were there really books on our first Presidents for voters to read to learn about candidates? WOW how misinformed they must of been. I don't think there is anything wrong with wanting them to speak straight forward and not tell us what they think we want to hear, and I mean all of them not just Obama.

I just can't understand with all the information right at the click of a mouse, it's still too much effort for people to do it.

I've read political speeches from the "pre-internet" era, and they were pretty short on specifics and high on rhetoric as well. The stump speech is to get people excited about the candidate-even Bill Clinton, the policy wonk of all time, knew better than to go into details. People's eyes glaze over and they move on.

Also, it seems that Hillary and McCain are getting a pass on this from most people. I've listened to both of their stump speeches and they're pretty short on specifics too.

 

[Fitswimmer]

Reading a propaganda book benefits what? Reading a website written by the pimps...I mean campaign managers is going to give an honest viewpoint?

At least when they speak, you can watch their body language, and use more than your ears in judging the person speaking. Probably why they'd rather you visit their spiffed up website...oh yeah...and make a donation while you are there!

It amazes me how many people think they are so far above others...

There are third party websites that are objective....and they've been posted here MANY times.....

FYI-careful with the personal insults....

 

[bsnyder]

Yeah, we don't agree. I agree that there are economic cycles, but I don't agree that this is what we've seen. I think we've seen an economic flash in the pan driven by a short burst of fuel (spend more, tax less), and an unregulated lending industry piling up billions in fake wealth.

We do agree that the Bush administration is responsible.

Not sure what the piling up bilions in fake wealth means, but I'd love to know. Along with the answer to my other question, about tax rates.

 

[tinkerbee]

There are third party websites that are objective....and they've been posted here MANY times.....

I'm looking I'm learning

 

[MassJester]

Not sure what the piling up bilions in fake wealth means, but I'd love to know. Along with the answer to my other question, about tax rates.

The fake wealth was created in the securitization of mortgages that never should have been written. Real estate was bought and sold in an ever increasing upward spiral while the fundamental assumptions supporting that market were bad.

As to the tax rate question -- I'm sure there is a theoretical ceiling, but I've never seen evidence of it being reached here in America since WWII.

 

[bsnyder]

There are third party websites that are objective....and they've been posted here MANY times.....

FYI-careful with the personal insults....

Because of the internet, no other election in history has had as much raw data available to the average citizen. The mass media is no longer the gatekeeper of all the information.

 

[bsnyder]

The fake wealth was created in the securitization of mortgages that never should have been written. Real estate was bought and sold in an ever increasing upward spiral while the fundamental assumptions supporting that market were bad.

As to the tax rate question -- I'm sure there is a theoretical ceiling, but I've never seen evidence of it being reached here in America since WWII.

Oh, I get it now. I'd call that a speculative bubble, not fake wealth (but to each his own) Because it doesn't exist now, even on paper. What's interesting is the fact that many of the financial institutions have now written off those properties to zero. That's not correct either. They are worth something. Just not what the bubble had them priced at.

And I really take exception to describing the lending industry "unregulated". It's fairly heavily regulated, compared to many other business sectors.

We had a top marginal rate from '51 to '64 of 91%. So I'm assuming your ceiling is higher than that?

 

[MassJester]

Oh, I get it now. I'd call that a speculative bubble, not fake wealth (but to each his own) Because it doesn't exist now, even on paper. What's interesting is the fact that many of the financial institutions have now written off those properties to zero. That's not correct either. They are worth something. Just not what the bubble had them priced at.

And I really take exception to describing the lending industry "unregulated". It's fairly heavily regulated, compared to many other business sectors.

We had a top marginal rate from '51 to '64 of 91%. So I'm assuming your ceiling is higher than that?

I never said unregulated. It seems that it may be poorly regulated, but volume doesn't indicate quality.

I do not have an understanding of what the top rate should max out at. Additionally, I think it more illustrative to watch the actual amount of income paid, rather than the rate, given the fluid nature of shelters and deductions.

 

[wvrevy]

I'm wasn't saying this only about Obama. I was just referring to previous posters who said we should go read his book if we want to know his intentions. Well, like it or not, most Americans will not take the time to read a book. They want the candidates to spell it out. I think they should. It would be a breath of fresh air to actually get a straight forward honest answer.

Clicking on a web site is too much trouble?

Is there a hypothetical tax rate that's so confiscatory that you think it could slow growth?

Yes.

Were there really books on our first Presidents for voters to read to learn about candidates? WOW how misinformed they must of been. I don't think there is anything wrong with wanting them to speak straight forward and not tell us what they think we want to hear, and I mean all of them not just Obama.

And they elected presidents that they knew very little about, save what they could read in newspapers and other places (those that could read, anyway). Today, we have a HUGE wealth of information available...and people want it spoon fed to them.

Reading a propaganda book benefits what? Reading a website written by the pimps...I mean campaign managers is going to give an honest viewpoint?

At least when they speak, you can watch their body language, and use more than your ears in judging the person speaking. Probably why they'd rather you visit their spiffed up website...oh yeah...and make a donation while you are there!

It amazes me how many people think they are so far above others...

It's got nothing to do with anyone "thinking they are so far above others." It has to do with wanting to be informed on the candidates - not just what they say, but their actions, past and present - and being willing to actually do something about that wish, rather than sitting back, hoping to be spoon-fed the information from them (when they've only got a limited time each news cycle) or, worse, from pundits on cable news networks.

This is how nonsense like the "Swift Boating" of a Vietnam vet becomes acceptable. This is how people think John McCain, with his 80+% conservative voting records is "more liberal than Hillary". This is why we've had a president for 8 years now that, while sounding like "a good guy to have a beer with", also shows the competence level of your average 7th grader trying to navigate (and pronounce) calculus.

DO YOUR HOMEWORK!!! It's not that hard, and there are PLENTY of sources out there, both biased and unbiased. Citizenship is a participatory exercise!

 

[Feralpeg]

Clicking on a web site is too much trouble?



Yes.



And they elected presidents that they knew very little about, save what they could read in newspapers and other places (those that could read, anyway). Today, we have a HUGE wealth of information available...and people want it spoon fed to them.



It's got nothing to do with anyone "thinking they are so far above others." It has to do with wanting to be informed on the candidates - not just what they say, but their actions, past and present - and being willing to actually do something about that wish, rather than sitting back, hoping to be spoon-fed the information from them (when they've only got a limited time each news cycle) or, worse, from pundits on cable news networks.

This is how nonsense like the "Swift Boating" of a Vietnam vet becomes acceptable. This is how people think John McCain, with his 80+% conservative voting records is "more liberal than Hillary". This is why we've had a president for 8 years now that, while sounding like "a good guy to have a beer with", also shows the competence level of your average 7th grader trying to navigate (and pronounce) calculus.

DO YOUR HOMEWORK!!! It's not that hard, and there are PLENTY of sources out there, both biased and unbiased. Citizenship is a participatory exercise!

Believe or not, not everyone has access to the Internet. I'm not talking about the people here who obviously have access and way too much time. Many people don't have PCs, Internet or the time to do the research. They are working multiple jobs to survive.

So, because they don't have access to the Internet, they shouldn't hear what a candidate intends? Why would it be so hard for a candidate to just come right out and speak their intentions? Maybe it is because they are afraid they will actually have to follow through.

 

["Got Disney"]

Then why don't you check out his website, watch his speeches and read his book Audacity of Hope?

Change is mainly because we've had a Bush or Clinton in the Whitehouse since the 80's. It's time for someone fresh.

We should not have to do this he should have told us in the debates...I know what he wants to do and it is alot but how how he pay for all his promises...I am 50 and have heard many promises from Pres hopefuls and they have fallen short....

I like Obama I just want more answers from his mouth to my ears.....

I am looking forward to the Texas Debate in hopes of hearing him finally tell me....I have listened to all his speeches and watched all the Debates ...I WANT MORE...

I know he is a good man and he wants HOPE and he cares....when he made the comment in the last debate about his Health care and he said that "Well listen Senator Kennedy feels that my Health care will pass...okay fine for Sen. Kennedy...tell me why ?????

I will gladly vote for him because his issues are the same for the most part as Hillary's.....but I am tired of being told to read his book, and go to the website and listen to his speeches...I WANT HIM TO TELL ME!!!

I want more debates between my candidate and him who is my second choice...I want him to make me see that he is the man to be the next POTUS....I say Barack...come and convince me that you are the man

 

[MassJester]

many more debates are unlikely.

 

[Fitswimmer]

Believe or not, not everyone has access to the Internet. I'm not talking about the people here who obviously have access and way too much time. Many people don't have PCs, Internet or the time to do the research. They are working multiple jobs to survive.

So, because they don't have access to the Internet, they shouldn't hear what a candidate intends? Why would it be so hard for a candidate to just come right out and speak their intentions? Maybe it is because they are afraid they will actually have to follow through.

The company I work for funds internet access for public libraries across the country so that people have access to the internet and it's FREE. I used the library often when my budget wasn't rich enough to pay for access myself. Read newspapers and magazines there for free as well. Yes, it was a pain and yes, it required effort but in my mind the effort was worth it.

 

[Fitswimmer]

many more debates are unlikely.

They've already had 18..what more can they say??

 

[lilyv]

[QUOTE="Got Disney";23199728]We should not have to do this he should have told us in the debates...I know what he wants to do and it is alot but how how he pay for all his promises...I am 50 and have heard many promises from Pres hopefuls and they have fallen short....

I like Obama I just want more answers from his mouth to my ears.....

I am looking forward to the Texas Debate in hopes of hearing him finally tell me....I have listened to all his speeches and watched all the Debates ...I WANT MORE...

I know he is a good man and he wants HOPE and he cares....when he made the comment in the last debate about his Health care and he said that "Well listen Senator Kennedy feels that my Health care will pass...okay fine for Sen. Kennedy...tell me why ?????

I will gladly vote for him because his issues are the same for the most part as Hillary's.....but I am tired of being told to read his book, and go to the website and listen to his speeches...I WANT HIM TO TELL ME!!!

I want more debates between my candidate and him who is my second choice...I want him to make me see that he is the man to be the next POTUS....I say Barack...come and convince me that you are the man[/QUOTE]

I dunno, 18 debates so far is enough for me. I don't believe I'm unusual in this. I figure the people that care have already carefully listened to 3 or 6 or 10 or 15.

There are two more to go, though.

 

[bsnyder]

many more debates are unlikely.

Until the general election.

 

[bsnyder]

Quote:
Originally Posted by bsnyder
Is there a hypothetical tax rate that's so confiscatory that you think it could slow growth?

Yes.

Alright smart-alec why do I have to ask you what you think that rate is?