What do you think about picking teams in gym class?

[HugsForEeyore]

I admit I am also one who had some very hurt memories brought up by reading this thread. I was picked last for year after year after year. Nothing good came of it. Didn't teach me a great life lesson - taught me to hate athletics, hate my classmates, and to quit activities and avoid everything I could.

From my experience (this is a few years ago, ok many), being picked last in gym usually is NOT a "special snowflake", "silver spoon", "everyone gets a trophy" issue. Being picked last is a public humiliating display of a child's overall social status. I would even go as far as to say social status is more important than athletic ability when chosing teams. An unathletic popular kid would be picked WAY ahead of an unpopular semi-athletic kid, least in my day.

I remember the kids like me (who were also picked last) were the nobodies - the ones who sat alone at lunch, had no one to work with in class groups, basically had few friends overall, if any. Looking back, these kids tended to have absent or naive or borderline neglectful parents. You never heard of their parents coming to their rescue. That's the whole point - no one helped them, not even their own parents, so these kids usually didn't change much or improve. Whatever characteristic made them unpopular stayed with them. They stayed the unlikeable nobodies that no one wanted to be around. For year after year. And being picked last in gym showed that to the world.

I think on this thread we are talking about 2 different things - the kid who is picked last here and there and it's not a big deal; and the kid who is picked last with snickering teasing comments from classmates for years on end, with the adults whom you are suppose to trust (your teachers) supporting it. Big difference.

I am all for eliminating having student pick teams. I know I would have appreciated one less class to fear!

 

[Spoonful of Sugar]

Sorry, I haven't read all of the replies (there's so many!) but I just wanted to mention, in case no one has yet, that even if the gym teacher picks the teams, the athletic kids are going to groan about having the unathletic ones on their teams, make comments, and try to trade unwanted players with other teams. I was often picked last, and it sucked, but I also remember people being upset about being forced to have me on their team. Maybe a way around it would be for the gym teacher to sometimes make the least popular kids the team captains, so they don't have to get picked at all.

 

[hereyago]

it's called life, folks. Who i really feel sorry for are the kids who's parents think it is their job to shield them from every little disappointment that comes their way. That is a lot more damaging then being picked last on a kickball team. Someone is always going to be better than you, get over it.

ita!

 

[Suz D]

We're dealing with this now. I was always the last one picked and the target for dodge ball. I understand where people are coming from when they say life isn't fair etc. etc. But as an adult I can choose to participate in things that I'm good at or things that interest me so I don't worry too much about life being fair. As a child in school, you don't have that choice. You HAVE to take PE (at least here you do).

Our daughter is 14 and is 4'8 inches and 85 lbs. She's naturally a target because she's totally unathletic. I'm definately not a parent who coddles her child. A few weeks ago when a kid was threatening her with a hockey stick she went to the assistant principal (we didn't know about this until it had all taken place) and talked to her about it. The AP told us later that she sat up really tall and said, "I suppose he was picking on me because I'm actually kind of good at hockey". Is that funny or what?

Anyway, here's my philosophy...why do kids have to take PE anyway? To be physically fit. Well, there are lots of non-competitive things that can be done in a PE class to maintain physical fitness. Why not have several types of PE classes? One fore those who would like more competitive activities and one for those who are simply fulfilling the requirement to be physically fit?

Math, English, Social Studies, and Science teachers all teach several different types of classes, why not PE teachers?

Okay, off my soapbox (and onto the couch where I can watch the NCAA tournament and pretend I'm athletic).

Oh and one more thing...is it really necessary to learn in PE how to keep score in bowling? I'm guessing that nearly every bowling alley in America has those computerized score keepers. Crazy!

 

[lacrosse_lady72]

The good kids have always been picked first and they will continue to do so in life. It may seem unfair to the nonathletic kids but life isn't fair. When grades are given out the smarter kids will have the advantage. When it comes time to date the better looking kids will have an advantage. It all even out in the end.

I don't like the 'everything has to be equal' mentality that seems to be prevalent all of a sudden. It is like awarding all the teams a trophy or not keeping score. There are winners and losers in life, that is how it is. There are people who are better at other things then others, that is how it is.

I have no problem with the better kids getting picked first whether it is more athletic kids for the sports teams or smarter kids for the academic teams. In the real world everything isn't equal. You succeed or fail on your merits and it is never too early to start learning that lesson.

I totally agree.

You know, I was always one of the first picked for kickball and soccer, our choice of sports in elementary school during recess and the sports we'd beg our PE teachers to let us play. I always had great groups in math and science classes because I'm good at that stuff too. When it came to English though, this wasn't the case. And you know what?... I didn't care. I still don't care. I think people have the right to surround themselves with those who they think will help them succeed more.

Life isn't fair, it will never be fair and it's time to get over it. Use these opportunities to make yourself better or don't let if effect you.

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

Sorry, I haven't read all of the replies (there's so many!) but I just wanted to mention, in case no one has yet, that even if the gym teacher picks the teams, the athletic kids are going to groan about having the unathletic ones on their teams, make comments, and try to trade unwanted players with other teams. I was often picked last, and it sucked, but I also remember people being upset about being forced to have me on their team. Maybe a way around it would be for the gym teacher to sometimes make the least popular kids the team captains, so they don't have to get picked at all.

But even then--if there is a sportsmanship problem leading to public displays of condemnation and dissatisfaction, it wont' matter it the unpopular/weakest of the bunch is the team captain. It'll tick of the kids who want to win.

Again--the problem isn't picking teams...it's how the teacher handles the attitudes.

Short of banning anything that requires splitting into groups--there will always be the possibility of someone not being happy with the outcome.

And life does not work that way. It never will. Team work is an important skill and even in the most solo of jobs as an adult, that person is going to have to know how to interact with others. It is an important life skill.

Blame the root of the problem--if kids are too offended or upset or too bitter that they got the weakest link...that's a management problem aka a PE teacher problem. (This is not a slam against PE teachers--just that how folks expereinced team picking is merely a symptom of the problem. It isn't "the" problem.)

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

Anyway, here's my philosophy...why do kids have to take PE anyway? To be physically fit. Well, there are lots of non-competitive things that can be done in a PE class to maintain physical fitness. Why not have several types of PE classes? One fore those who would like more competitive activities and one for those who are simply fulfilling the requirement to be physically fit?

Math, English, Social Studies, and Science teachers all teach several different types of classes, why not PE teachers?

They teach different LEVELS in those subjects, not differen't "types" of classes.

AKA--those students that hate labs (ME!!!!!) will take non-lab science and only those who like labs--get the full lab science. That doesn't exist for good reason--you can't fully learn the subject by eliminating the less desirable components. In math, some kids hate the multiplication tables. But they don't get to skip it b/c they aren't any good or anything. They suck it up and learn them.

Sometimes, the weakest links want to learn a "competitive" sport--and what you are suggesting is a PE class that eliminates tennis, volleyball, basketball, baseball, softball, dodgeball, kickball and pretty much anything that is not an individual sport that pits one person against the other. This leaves an extremely limited selection of activities and even in some of those activities...kids compete (like running).

No--that's not acceptable at all. The class is called physical education and learning different skills that the body can do is just as important as learning different AREAS of science and not just focusing on plants and ignoring the rest b/c it bores you.

I may have sucked, but I still had fun at most of the team sports with the exception of basketball--only b/c my aim stank and that dang basket was too high.

 

[kaytieeldr]

But it wasn't a grand conspiracy to throw your esteem in the dirt

But of COURSE it was. Haven't you figured out yet, the entire world revolves around me?

I'm sorry, but I don't understand the point of your first comment.

The TYPICAL academic class - i.e. each individual period, all year long - doesn't rely on student-picked teams. I don't recall that ever being part of an academic class, but even if/when it is, it'd be an occasional occurrence, not SOP. But if an academic class WERE regularly 'taught' based on student-selected teams, and the teacher realized certain students were always being left for last due to real or percieved lack of ability, the teacher would be working with those students to improve their respective knowledge/abilites - not ignoring the situation as so often apparently happens in PE and expecting it to work itself out.

I think on this thread we are talking about 2 different things - the kid who is picked last here and there and it's not a big deal; and the kid who is picked last with snickering teasing comments from classmates for years on end, with the adults whom you are suppose to trust (your teachers) supporting it. Big difference.

I am all for eliminating having student pick teams. I know I would have appreciated one less class to fear!

I agree - and this is what people don't seem to be understanding.

 

[kaytieeldr]

They teach different LEVELS in those subjects, not differen't "types" of classes.

Not necessarily - off the top of my head: geometry, algebra, calculus, trigenometry; biology, chemistry; history, geography.

 

[jrmasm]

Even that would have been better than what was happening.

Even if everyone thinks this is such a great life's lesson. Why do some of you think it is so necessary?

I am not talking about shielding a child from every little hurt and every little thing that may disappointment in life. But there is no need not to prevent this one.

In our schools the children do not read out loud in class. Why? Because the children that cannot read as well do not have to be embarrassed. Why is this important? Why not just tell them to suck it up? Because child experts agreed that if a child is embarrassed by reading out loud they stop reading. So the kids read to the teacher, either at her desk or theirs. Do the kids still know who can and cannot read? Yes. But its not pushed in anyone's face. Its not putting anyone's lack of ability on display.

So, is this not ok with those that think they should just learn that life is not fair?

That's ridiculous. I hope the teachers don't ask the students any questions either. They might not know the answers and be humiliated.

 

[claudia]

It's called life, folks. Who I REALLY feel sorry for are the kids who's parents think it is their job to shield them from every little disappointment that comes their way. That is a lot more damaging then being picked last on a kickball team. Someone is ALWAYS going to be better than you, get over it.

The good kids have always been picked first and they will continue to do so in life. It may seem unfair to the nonathletic kids but life isn't fair. When grades are given out the smarter kids will have the advantage. When it comes time to date the better looking kids will have an advantage. It all even out in the end.

I don't like the 'everything has to be equal' mentality that seems to be prevalent all of a sudden. It is like awarding all the teams a trophy or not keeping score. There are winners and losers in life, that is how it is. There are people who are better at other things then others, that is how it is.

I have no problem with the better kids getting picked first whether it is more athletic kids for the sports teams or smarter kids for the academic teams. In the real world everything isn't equal. You succeed or fail on your merits and it is never too early to start learning that lesson.

This is exactly what I was thinking.....

 

[claudia]

That's an excellent way of doing things. I know life is unfair but why can't it be unfair in the real world? School should be a nurturing place and a place for learning leadership and team building. It shouldn't be all hard-core and mean.

Home is a nurturing place, school is a step towards the real world....how do kids learn leadership and team building skills if they never have to meet any challenges???

 

[claudia]

At what point are children suppose to learn they aren't good at everything? When do they learn that in order to excel they have to work hard? Or that failing, even when you've worked hard, happens and that you'll be okay?

I think our schools are doing a miserable job of actually preparing our children. There is nothing in the this life that will be handed to you once you're out on your own. We shelter our children through 12 years of school and then expect them to be able to deal with a life where you aren't picked for the team, you won't get an A just for showing up and breathing, and even though you really want it you may not get the job. Not to mention all the times you're going to fall flat on your face and have to pick yourself up again.

Our children are growing up fragile and dependent. My generation is racking up huge amounts of debt because they've never been told, "no." Or had to do without. The term "entitled" is part of our everyday vocabulary now because so many people feel they are owed something. We are so desperate to homogenize our students into one category, we refuse to accept differences. And heaven forbid we actually grade them or rank them in some way, we might hurt their feelings and their self confidence.

I'm sorry, but school is the perfect place to get picked last, to fail a test, to not make the team, to recognize that you have strengths and weaknesses, and to learn persistence even when you try really hard but fail anyway. Not everyone is going to be nice to you and at some point you should learn how to cope with it, rather than running to complain that life isn't fair. Because it isn't.

Very well said....

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

Not necessarily - off the top of my head: geometry, algebra, calculus, trigenometry; biology, chemistry; history, geography.

Not in elementary or middle school.

Learning to play Volleyball or not is not tantamount to skipping calculus.

Many people "get" your point--but may people "disagree".

What you are citing is some insecurities that were magnified by your experience in gym class.

Well--for some kids, those insecurities are magnified in an academic class--but they don't get to opt out "just b/c".

The suggestion is ludicrous.

Even in an individual sport---such as running (one of the very few I can think of)--if they were going to tell you that you suck in a team sport, the kids are going to tell that you suck if you are a slow poke and again that falls back on class management.

It's like if you had a sibling that told you that you suck all the time. And mom or dad NEVER corrects it. They aren't calling you that you suck necessarily b/c it is true. They are doing so b/c they can get away with it. The circumstances aren't the problem--the kid and mom and dad's lack of discipline is.

You cannot be shielded from it unless Phys Ed was done away with.

What you are asking for is immunity--and that is silly.

Get a doctor's note if it impacts your life that badly--but "picking teams" or having gym class isn't traumatizing the youth of America at large.

 

[babyrich]

so if there is any chance of humiliation we should cut out the source?????? We may as well cancel school.

I am not athletic or artistic. In school, we had to make up stories with words given to us and read them in front of the class. I am a horrible writer and am terrified of public speaking. I did it anyway and I got laughed at. By the time I sat down, it was forgotten.

If a child is humiliated every day because they are picked last or dont read as well, than maybe the parent should do something and not expect "everything" be changed to accomodate their child. Self-worth can be taught. Not worrying what others opinions are can too. If we take away all bumps in the road when they are young, they wont expect any bumps when they are older.

If its bullying than the school should do its job.

 

[Suz D]

They teach different LEVELS in those subjects, not differen't "types" of classes.

I don't completely agree with this statement. Obviously in elementary school this is true, but once you are in middle or HS you are given choices within those subjects. In English there are literature classes, composition classes etc. There are honors classes for those who are especially adept at certain subjects. Hey, I have it! How about honors PE (I'm only 1/2 kidding on this one).

AKA--those students that hate labs (ME!!!!!) will take non-lab science and only those who like labs--get the full lab science. That doesn't exist for good reason--you can't fully learn the subject by eliminating the less desirable components. In math, some kids hate the multiplication tables. But they don't get to skip it b/c they aren't any good or anything. They suck it up and learn them.

I'm sorry to disagree with you but I think that academics are more necessary to life skills than competitive PE is (not physical fitness, but competitve PE). I doubt anyone contributes more to society than they would have if they hadn't played dodge ball in PE.


Sometimes, the weakest links want to learn a "competitive" sport--and what you are suggesting is a PE class that eliminates tennis, volleyball, basketball, baseball, softball, dodgeball, kickball and pretty much anything that is not an individual sport that pits one person against the other. This leaves an extremely limited selection of activities and even in some of those activities...kids compete (like running).

No--that's not acceptable at all. The class is called physical education and learning different skills that the body can do is just as important as learning different AREAS of science and not just focusing on plants and ignoring the rest b/c it bores you.

I may have sucked, but I still had fun at most of the team sports with the exception of basketball--only b/c my aim stank and that dang basket was too high.

I don't disagree with what is bolded at all (bolded by me), but I think that there are many ways to educate kids about skills that our bodies can do and how to be physically fit without making it competitive. For example, in a PE class on basketball, I would think that learning to dribble the ball, shoot the ball, pass the ball etc. is what would be taught. That can all be done in non-competitive ways.

For running, each person could compete with the clock instead of another person (in PE, obviously not on the track team). You try to better your own time and compete with yourself.

I'm just suggesting that a non-competitive PE class be offered for those who don't desire the competition aspect. Those who want to play a full out basketball, volleyball, baseball, or dodge ball game could sign up for the competitive PE class instead.

My view is that there are lots of ways to promote the type of team building that will help kids in the real world. Things like the activity where everyone stands in a circle and holds hand and sings Kum-bah-yah (just kidding). I mean the one where they do the circle thing and weave in and out, over and under each other without letting go of hands and then have to work together to "untie" themselves. That's just one example of working together as a group without having one team win or lose, or one person feel that they are the one nobody wants on their team. There's just one team and they all will or they all lose.

For the record, my daughter has received all "A's" in PE in middle school because she does her best even though she's usually the last picked or made fun of because she can't hit the ball. We wouldn't dream of going to the teacher to complain about that. She has to learn to fight her own battles and hold her head up even when she stinks at something. BUT I think she can learn that in other ways besides PE class and still don't think that having a non-competitive PE class is a bad idea.

This has been a really interesting (and fun) thread to read. Thanks to everyone who has pretty much been keeping it as a discussion rather than a bash fest

Sorry I didn't multi-quote this right. I still can't figure out how to do that.

 

[MUFFYCAT]

I don't really like the idea of picking teams. My 15 DD can't play sports at all because she's uncoordinated and takes after me. I thought that being picked last would bother her but she doesn't care. She knows she excells in other areas, like some of her classes.

 

[Suz D]

Now I can't quote a post. The system is making me reply to Lisalovespooh for everything I type. So in response to babyrich's last sentence and at the risk of straying a big from the original topic what is your defination of bullying? I have a genuine interest in everyone's thoughts on that topic and perhaps should start a new thread, but my husband studies averted school violence (not bullying, but more hostage taking, school shooting etc) and I think it would be interesting to know what people think would be categorized as bullying.

 

[rgf207]

The thing that I don't understand is why parents feel that we need to shelter kids from everything. It seems that anything in life that may cause disappointment needs to be eliminated.

No more reading out loud
No more keeping score in sports
No more tryouts. Everyone makes the team
No more picking teams in gym class because someone gets picked last

Why does no one realize that this is going to hurt the kids in the long run.

Instead of sheltering kids from every little thing that may hurt them, why can't we teach them that life is full of disappointments and we need to adapt.

 

[babyrich]

Now I can't quote a post. The system is making me reply to Lisalovespooh for everything I type. So in response to babyrich's last sentence and at the risk of straying a big from the original topic what is your defination of bullying? I have a genuine interest in everyone's thoughts on that topic and perhaps should start a new thread, but my husband studies averted school violence (not bullying, but more hostage taking, school shooting etc) and I think it would be interesting to know what people think would be categorized as bullying.

I think defining bullying is another thread; but in this case, I mean that I do not define bullying as being picked last for a team, even if it is all the time or having the other kids be annoyed they have to have that child. If it is just a groan, the teacher should say something because the behavior isnt called for; but if this behavior spills out into the hallway, than that's more bullying.

for example, when teams were picked for basketball, I got picked last because I am under 5 feet. They other kids did groan and say "fine, we will take her". But after PE it was over, I wasnt followed down the hall and made fun of because I couldnt play.

Now I am not an educator or have I studied any cases on bullying so this is just my own expression.